davesax36
Well-Known Member
True.
Help Support VMAX Forum:
I wanna see a pic of a blued set of 'steelies,' friction discs worn so-far-down you see the metal (that never happens, I believe), and a flat diaphragm spring instead of one with a concavity to it.
A ruined clutch for making all this posting worth-it.:rofl_200:
A ruined clutch for making all this posting worth-it.:rofl_200:
HyperPete
Well-Known Member
No, it definitely does not slip at all in 5th at highway speed either
Traumahawk
Well-Known Member
Question....does it slip in 5th gear when you crack open the throttle? Give it atleast 3/4 throttle? If the answer is no...then change the fluid.
COMPLETELY change and bleed the system with DOT 3/4...and see how much of a change there is....bad fluid full of water will do odd things.
Occam's razor--The simplest explanation is usually the right one.
COMPLETELY change and bleed the system with DOT 3/4...and see how much of a change there is....bad fluid full of water will do odd things.
Occam's razor--The simplest explanation is usually the right one.
HyperPete
Well-Known Member
no, it does not seem to slip in 1st gear under hard acceleration.
I'll flush and fill the system this weekend. Thanks again for the help!
I'll flush and fill the system this weekend. Thanks again for the help!
magna_dude74
Well-Known Member
Hey everyone,
Funny this topic should come up now, as I experienced something strange on the highway this morning:confused2: Mind you I don't leave my garage until the temp needle has moved off the pin, but the highway is like 4-5 minutes from the house. About 1/2 mile past the on-ramp is a place that is wide open and smoothed (you know where I'm going with this:eusa_dance
So I tuck down and WACK the throttle, I glance down to peek at the tach, and I notice it shot to 10K and then fall right back to 7K and start climbing. I was thinking tire spin at first, but now you all have me wondering:ummm::confused2::ummm:Keep in mind that I can lift the front end on a 1-2 shift, and there is no problem at low speeds in higher gears, she grumbles a little until the RPM meet the wheel speed. so how can I tell the difference between wheel spin and clutch slippage?
invalidsession
Well-Known Member
Hey everyone,
Funny this topic should come up now, as I experienced something strange on the highway this morning:confused2: Mind you I don't leave my garage until the temp needle has moved off the pin, but the highway is like 4-5 minutes from the house. About 1/2 mile past the on-ramp is a place that is wide open and smoothed (you know where I'm going with this:eusa_dance
Keep in mind that I can lift the front end on a 1-2 shift, and there is no problem at low speeds in higher gears, she grumbles a little until the RPM meet the wheel speed. so how can I tell the difference between wheel spin and clutch slippage?
Any experienced V Max (or other rider) would recognize the difference between wheel spin and clutch slip.
Chris.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Slipping clutch shows up first in higher gears, then lower gears the worse it gets.
Its about torque load, the clutch is working grade when you accelerate in fifth, because the tranny is not helping it.
Picture you with a one foot wrench and then a three foot wrench, turning the same bolt under same conditions.
Your hand is the clutch, your arm is the engine. Both are working harder with the short wrench, the short wrench is like a higher gear
Its about torque load, the clutch is working grade when you accelerate in fifth, because the tranny is not helping it.
Picture you with a one foot wrench and then a three foot wrench, turning the same bolt under same conditions.
Your hand is the clutch, your arm is the engine. Both are working harder with the short wrench, the short wrench is like a higher gear
magna_dude74
Well-Known Member
Chris,
Quit busting my balls:damn angry::damn angry:
I am a conservative rider, but I love the power of my 1994 MAX:clapping::clapping:I think the descriptions of both scenarios are very similar. I understand that under hard acceleration, and the wheel breaks free, the bike typically will shift sideways. I have seen many rolling burn-outs where the bike stays true and leaves an almost perfect straight line.
Again I ask, how can I determine if it was a clutch slipping, or the wheel spinning?
RPM's go high like normal, pulls real hard, but then acts like an automatic transmission, and the RPM QUICKLY goes to 7K and the bike pulls hard again to red line. So why does it feel like an automatic transmission shifting? perhaps my buddy will let me snag his GO-PRO and I can show you guys....
Quit busting my balls:damn angry::damn angry:
I am a conservative rider, but I love the power of my 1994 MAX:clapping::clapping:I think the descriptions of both scenarios are very similar. I understand that under hard acceleration, and the wheel breaks free, the bike typically will shift sideways. I have seen many rolling burn-outs where the bike stays true and leaves an almost perfect straight line.
Again I ask, how can I determine if it was a clutch slipping, or the wheel spinning?
RPM's go high like normal, pulls real hard, but then acts like an automatic transmission, and the RPM QUICKLY goes to 7K and the bike pulls hard again to red line. So why does it feel like an automatic transmission shifting? perhaps my buddy will let me snag his GO-PRO and I can show you guys....
Hey everyone,
Funny this topic should come up now, as I experienced something strange on the highway this morning:confused2: Mind you I don't leave my garage until the temp needle has moved off the pin, but the highway is like 4-5 minutes from the house. About 1/2 mile past the on-ramp is a place that is wide open and smoothed (you know where I'm going with this:eusa_dance
Keep in mind that I can lift the front end on a 1-2 shift, and there is no problem at low speeds in higher gears, she grumbles a little until the RPM meet the wheel speed. so how can I tell the difference between wheel spin and clutch slippage?
As-long as you were out of the clutch (it was fully-engaged, you had released the lever) and weren't sitting in a black stripe of diesel fuel/motor oil/coolant/monkey snot when you opened the throttle, your description of what happened here is indicative of the slipping clutch.
Order that PCW kit: heavy-duty diaphragm spring, new Yamaha o.e.m. friction discs, a clutch cover Yamaha gasket, the 'extra-friction disc' to replace the inner o.e.m. Yamaha half-width friction disc, and rough-up your 'steelies' when it's apart, install everything, and you should be ready to enjoy a properly-functioning clutch.
While it's apart, you can confirm the hydraulic clutch function to operate correctly by pulling the clutch lever and seeing the clutch pack release when the diaphragm spring moves as you pull the lever w/the clutch cover off. If your clutch master cylinder fluid level was low, or your clutch hydraulic system needed bleeding, you wouldn't get enough movement to fully-release the clutch when you pulled-in the clutch lever, but you haven't mentioned that, so it probably isn't an issue. Hard shifting, and a 'creeping bike' when stopped in-gear while stationary at a light are symptoms of that. If you are going to the trouble to replace the clutch, you might as-well replace the fluid completely in the reservoirs. If you are unfamiliar w/the technique, do an 'advanced search' on the topic. Briefly, the quickest and most effective method is to push brake fluid up from the slave cylinder bleeder nipple with a large-capacity syringe (I recommend a 60 ml syringe which you can get cheaply at your local drug store or a medical supply store, you don't need any needles, just a syringe w/a plastic tip about 3 mm wide to slip a short length of clear plastic tubing over, which you will then push-onto your slave cylinder nipple. I use a hose-clamp there at the plastic tubing/bleeder nipple to avoid leaking brake fluid) after you sop-up the used brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir and replace it w/a splash of fluid sufficient to cover the big and small holes in the bottom of the master cylinder.
Hi Pete,
Just read your thread and thought I might offer some fundamental advice.
Keep it simple.
1) Is your bargain bike a "Garage Queen"? ie. very low mileage, no road time and most of its life sitting doing nothing?
2) How often was its clutch hydraulics actually used? (prior to you).
3 When was the last time the hydraulic fliud was changed?
4) Have you bled the lines and changed the fliuds?
Investigation
1) Does the clutch lever return to its rest position quickly? i.e Does it snap back to rest?
You are looking at either a gummed up clutch master cylinder (plungers degraded plus moisture from sitting around it garage and maybe blocked inlet outlet valves in the master, or air in the line). OR a gummed up slave cylinder with the same issues OR a combination fo both.
Service it youself or get it serviced before your worry about replacing or upgrading anything.
Just read your thread and thought I might offer some fundamental advice.
Keep it simple.
1) Is your bargain bike a "Garage Queen"? ie. very low mileage, no road time and most of its life sitting doing nothing?
2) How often was its clutch hydraulics actually used? (prior to you).
3 When was the last time the hydraulic fliud was changed?
4) Have you bled the lines and changed the fliuds?
Investigation
1) Does the clutch lever return to its rest position quickly? i.e Does it snap back to rest?
You are looking at either a gummed up clutch master cylinder (plungers degraded plus moisture from sitting around it garage and maybe blocked inlet outlet valves in the master, or air in the line). OR a gummed up slave cylinder with the same issues OR a combination fo both.
Service it youself or get it serviced before your worry about replacing or upgrading anything.
Traumahawk
Well-Known Member
When mine was slipping...the RPM's went up faster than it should...and then the RPM's started coming down as I was gaining speed.
invalidsession
Well-Known Member
I aint trying to bust your balls but you are ignoring a lot of the advice that's been posted. Clutch slip is very different to wheel spin. Wheel spin tends to occur in the lower gears (1st and 2nd primarily). Whereas clutch slip will manifest itself in all gears but mostly when you ask the engine to pull hard from a lower speed, up a hill etc in the higher gears due to the higher torque being passed through the clutch to the transmission. A cheap, effective way to check would be to do an oil change and have a sniff at the old oil. It will likely have sharp/burnt smell to it if the friction plates have been spinning up. An even cheaper test would be to pull the clutch in and come to a quick stop after this phenomenon occurs and take a peek at the back tire. It may well show a darker color on the center of the tread if it has been spinning.
An old trick we used back in the day (automotive) was to apply the parking brake and try to pull away in 3rd or 4th gear. That will reveal a worn clutch right fast. I suppose that could be applied to your bike by trying a rolling start in 3rd gear and as soon as you get rolling get on the gas and observe what the RPM's do.
Chris.
Chris.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
If there's any "automatic" feel to it its your clutch.
RPM' and speed for a given gear are linear, period.
If you push it up to a steady speed at a brisk pace, quickly stop accelerating, (I didn't say slow down), maintain that speed and observe rpm's" fall there's no way around that being any thing besides the clutch.
Your not going to be able to spin the tire in fourth or faith gear, ain't gonna happen.
Do us a favor, take the bike up to about 5000rpm's in 5th, get it steady, and then whack the throttle wide open, if its the clutch the rev's are going to run away faster than the bike.
Then when you back out of the throttle, but not slowing down, and watch the revs fall; guess what?
Its the clutch.
RPM' and speed for a given gear are linear, period.
If you push it up to a steady speed at a brisk pace, quickly stop accelerating, (I didn't say slow down), maintain that speed and observe rpm's" fall there's no way around that being any thing besides the clutch.
Your not going to be able to spin the tire in fourth or faith gear, ain't gonna happen.
Do us a favor, take the bike up to about 5000rpm's in 5th, get it steady, and then whack the throttle wide open, if its the clutch the rev's are going to run away faster than the bike.
Then when you back out of the throttle, but not slowing down, and watch the revs fall; guess what?
Its the clutch.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Scotch brite or emery cloth the plates. Works fine; holds my 1540
magna_dude74
Well-Known Member
Hey all,
So I'm thinking it's the clutch. This is my first experience with clutch issues in all my years of riding, so thanks for the advice. Looks like I will be giving PCW a call, and see where I am at cost, this might be a spring thing. At any rate lot's of great advice here, so thanks to all that chimed in!!!!
So I'm thinking it's the clutch. This is my first experience with clutch issues in all my years of riding, so thanks for the advice. Looks like I will be giving PCW a call, and see where I am at cost, this might be a spring thing. At any rate lot's of great advice here, so thanks to all that chimed in!!!!
Traumahawk
Well-Known Member
Glad that we could help!!
HyperPete
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I missed this - I guess there's no auto-subscription to ones own threads when posted!
Anyway,
I don't know if it was a garage queen. Probably - 30,000 miles on it (I have more than that on my 2008 M109R!) I can't tell you it's history, but I do plan to flush the hydraulics with fresh Dot4 fluid. The lever does appear to be a little gummed up, looks like old grease around the pivot. That may be contributing. The lever does not "snap" back but does seem to return very fast. I'll be removing the lever too and cleaning it up, then greasing with a synthetic grease at the pivot too.
I'll probably do this for my brakes too, front and rear, although they do seem to be working fine. The fluid visible in the resevoir looks a little dark to me, so it's probably soaking up moisture.
(I had to go through all of this with my 1982 Goldwing with the brakes too.)
Looks as if I'll be spending a good part of the day tomorrow working on the bike. Thanks again to everyone for their input and advise. I feel certain that I'll get it figured out tomorrow.
HyperPete
Well-Known Member
Well, I got sidetracked trying to fit that darned 200 on the bike, but today I finally got back to this.
The clutch fluid was filthy gray and there was sludge in the bottom of the master cylinder. I drained the MC and cleaned it, then flushed the line until it came out clear, and bled it. I also cleaned all of the grungy old grease off the lever, perch, and associated components, gave everything a thin coat of synthetic grease and reassembled.
It made a world of difference. Now the bike spins in first if I take off "hot" and if I hit 1 - 2 fast it breaks the tire loose. The feel of the clutch is better too.
I guess my concern now is how long it was dragging / slipping slightly for the previous owner and how much damage was done to the clutch. Perhaps this winter I'll break it down and deglaze the steels, and replace the clutch if it is worn.
I guess I am going to flush the brakes as well. I'm sure the brake fluid is equally filthy.
Thank you all for your assistance.
The clutch fluid was filthy gray and there was sludge in the bottom of the master cylinder. I drained the MC and cleaned it, then flushed the line until it came out clear, and bled it. I also cleaned all of the grungy old grease off the lever, perch, and associated components, gave everything a thin coat of synthetic grease and reassembled.
It made a world of difference. Now the bike spins in first if I take off "hot" and if I hit 1 - 2 fast it breaks the tire loose. The feel of the clutch is better too.
I guess my concern now is how long it was dragging / slipping slightly for the previous owner and how much damage was done to the clutch. Perhaps this winter I'll break it down and deglaze the steels, and replace the clutch if it is worn.
I guess I am going to flush the brakes as well. I'm sure the brake fluid is equally filthy.
Thank you all for your assistance.
DMAN999
Well-Known Member
If you follow this Guide you can easily check your clutch plates in just a few minutes:
http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/clutch.htm
I replaced ALL my friction plates last year and it only took about 30 Minutes total.
I scrubbed my Steels with a Green Scotch-brite pad and used OEM Frictions, it only cost me about $70 or so.
OEM Frictions:
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/yamaha/YP-26H-16324-00-00.html
I did replace the back 1/2 Friction Plate (and it's associated parts) with a full size plate and I like it so far.
The PCW HD Spring is recommended by many people here for some added grab.
"Heavy Duty Clutch Spring Kit ( comes with gasket, extra friction disc& instructions) ........... $ 69.95"
http://www.pcwracing.net/page10.htm
I have the Barnett Spring Conversion and like it a lot, it grabs better and is much smoother than the Stock setup.
$125.95 @ Python Motorsports:
http://www.pythonmotorsports.com/vmax/vmax_products/clutchspg.htm
I would NOT recommend the DD Mod if you ride in traffic at all because you'll need forearms like Popeye to hold the lever in.
http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/clutch.htm
I replaced ALL my friction plates last year and it only took about 30 Minutes total.
I scrubbed my Steels with a Green Scotch-brite pad and used OEM Frictions, it only cost me about $70 or so.
OEM Frictions:
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/yamaha/YP-26H-16324-00-00.html
I did replace the back 1/2 Friction Plate (and it's associated parts) with a full size plate and I like it so far.
The PCW HD Spring is recommended by many people here for some added grab.
"Heavy Duty Clutch Spring Kit ( comes with gasket, extra friction disc& instructions) ........... $ 69.95"
http://www.pcwracing.net/page10.htm
I have the Barnett Spring Conversion and like it a lot, it grabs better and is much smoother than the Stock setup.
$125.95 @ Python Motorsports:
http://www.pythonmotorsports.com/vmax/vmax_products/clutchspg.htm
I would NOT recommend the DD Mod if you ride in traffic at all because you'll need forearms like Popeye to hold the lever in.
