Just discovered how horrible an '85 Max handles...

Well, my friend and I tore up the canyon today, me on the stock '85 Max, him on his stock '98 Bandit 1200. We weren't really aggressive in the turns, but did some 95mph+ roll-ons in the straights. The Max did real well with the Suzy - except when I even thought about shifting lanes or turning....

Man, am I disappointed. Even after reading up on the Max for a long time about handling, and after owning 3 XS11s, I didn't expect the Max to handle so poorly. In fact, it handles so badly that I can't feel confident in its handling at all.

Problems:
Anything like lane changes, sweeping turns, and even rolling on the throttle and also breaking at 65mph or greater and this thing bobs, weaves, climbs, dives, wobbles, and wanders all over the place.

I'm not venting to bash on the Max. The engine power in the straight is very nice. And I knew it had handling issues. But what I am doing is just saying, now I know first hand, and they are horrible.

My XS11 felt much more stable, and it is considered a poor handler. Too bad from 1979-1985, Yamaha did nothing to improve handling on their big bikes - or at least it seems that way.

Honestly, after riding today, I really second guessed my decision to buy a used Max, and wondered if I should have purchased my friend's Bandit (which I still could buy), or if I should have gone with an FZ1....

Again, I'm not trying to bash the Max. But I am just more disappointed in its handling than I thought I would be.

So.....

What do I do now; dump money into some handling upgrades to get the bike to an acceptable level, or ride it like it is and get another bike down the road?

I like the power cruiser format, as does the wife. I took her out on a 2 year old FZ6 and she really liked it. So maybe she would do ok on a Bandit or FZ1 or whatever, maybe not.

Also, I should say, I am not what I call an aggressive canyon carver by any means. I ride pretty conservatively, except on straights, where I regularly abuse the throttle. So what I think I need is to get the bike to an "acceptable" level of handling for a low to moderate rider (in the turns).

What's the minimum cash outlay and mods required to get this "basic" level of handling from a Max?
steering head? radials? cartridge emulators? front end replacement/upgrade? swingarm bearings? progressive springs in front and rear? lowering?

Mine does pretty well. I think about a lane change and it happens. The only thing I don't like is the squatting of the rear when you really get on it...but that's kind of normal for a shaft driven bike. I also feel a bit of frame flex if I really flip it on it's side on a curve.

What tires are you running? Let me tell you, stock tires suck for turning and corners. The ME880's I put on made a huge difference. Another thing I did for better suspension and better confidence in braking was Racetech springs and emulators. There is a lot less fork drive and uneven pavement or bumps soak up nicely. I have a beefier fork brace but don't think that makes a big difference. I've ridden stockers and the front end feel the same. Last thing I would check is your swing arm bearings and the pivot bolts torque. Also check steering torque of the ring nuts and the head nut on top of the top triple tree.

For relatively little you can greatly improve the handling of your Max. Order up a set of Delrin motor mounts or Venture solid mounts (aluminum so a bit more expensive). Bang for the buck wise this will make a huge difference in frame flex and improve its manners in a corner. Also, for under $100 you can get a set of Progressive fork springs which also help a lot. You don't need to spend thousands unless you are a really aggressive rider and are trying to carve up the twisties.

So you got a 23 year old motorcycle and can't figure out why it will not handle.

Do you have the maintenance records for it? Has the steering head, swing arm or wheel bearings ever bin changed? 23 year old rear shocks, junk. 23 year old front springs, junk. Before you spend a pennies on it for any aftermarket parts get it square away that it in good mechanical shape.

Once that is done I would then purchase:

Delrin motor mounts.

Frame brace

New rear shocks

New front springs

Radial tires

Better brakes.

Or sell it, and buy another Honda and leave us alone.

You shouldn't have to shell out any money as a stock VMax shouldn't exhibit the problems you posted. Problems to the extreme that you mentioned will either be with the tire(s) either being at the right PSI or worn out (or out of round etc) or there is a problem with your bearings in your steering head. They are probably not adjusted right.

Nobody said:

Or sell it, and buy another Honda and leave us alone.

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Dang, the guy has been working his butt off trying to put a classic VMax back together. Not sure why he needs to get kicked in the teeth.

One of the first things to check is making sure the steering head bearing was changed during the 1988 recall.

Radials front and rear will change the ride completely.

93 or newer front w/fork brace & spring upgrade
Upgrade Rear Shocks
Radials & Wheels or (rear wheel) to match
Front Brake Upgrade (rotors/calipers/mc)

If you're not feeling major flex and wobble, these would be the first things to look at doing.

Then you can weigh the options of solid motor mounts, frame bracing, swingarm upgrades, etc.

Neil

Neil-3446 said:

One of the first things to check is making sure the steering head bearing was changed during the 1988 recall.

Radials front and rear will change the ride completely.

93 or newer front w/fork brace & spring upgrade
Upgrade Rear Shocks
Radials & Wheels or (rear wheel) to match
Front Brake Upgrade (rotors/calipers/mc)

If you're not feeling major flex and wobble, these would be the first things to look at doing.

Then you can weigh the options of solid motor mounts, frame bracing, swingarm upgrades, etc.

Neil

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+1

I was getting major head shake, but a minor adjustment took care of it (Thanks again Shawn!). As far as the suspention, progressives took care of the front. I still run the stock rear. I got a little frame flex in corners, I had a few extra bucks fo I went with Walker's frame braces. They are far more then the "do nothing frame braces" others who have never tried his frame braces claim. I noticed a significant difference in handling under power.

As soon as my new swingarm shows up, I'm switching to radials. I've heard nothing but positive about this conversion. I doubt you'll need a new swingarm, I'm just opting for a braced and double notched unit so I can run a 200 tire.

I too used to own an XS, but I wasn't into the all around bike like I'm working towards now. I just wanted a 1320ft street brawler that it evolved into. But the difference between the two are like apples and oranges. the only similarity is that once again Yamaha tried to put a ton of HP in a poor chassis. I remember at one time the XS was the fastest production bike after it came out to compete with the GS and the Kz's.

Nobody said:

So you got a 23 year old motorcycle and can't figure out why it will not handle.

Do you have the maintenance records for it? Has the steering head, swing arm or wheel bearings ever bin changed? 23 year old rear shocks, junk. 23 year old front springs, junk. Before you spend a pennies on it for any aftermarket parts get it square away that it in good mechanical shape.

Once that is done I would then purchase:

Delrin motor mounts.

Frame brace

New rear shocks

New front springs

Radial tires

Better brakes.

Or sell it, and buy another Honda and leave us alone.

Click to expand...

And the d-bag of the day award goes to..... *drumroll*

Maximus,
I understand your concerns. I have had a number of Honda Magnas that I believe handle better than the Max, but a little less power. Earlier this spring I purchased a '99 Bandit 1200 because I got a great deal on it from a guy who had to sell it for the cash. After fixing it up and riding it for a few weeks, I sold it for a hefty profit. It definitely handled better than my VMax, but a totally different feel on the highway. I'm just not a big fan of the sport bike feel, as my concern is comfort on the road and an occasional good twist of the throttle.
I definitely agree that you should check the air pressure in your tires. I have purchased a number of bikes that were running 10-20 psi in the front and they would be horrible turning and would track in a groove in the pavement to the point I was scared. The first thing you should do, if you haven't, is verify the proper pressure is in both tires. A week after I purchased my '86 Max, I put in a set of front progressive springs. It helped tremendously. Still running the stock rears which seem fine. Haven't done any other upgrades for handling at this time, but I am definitely not a twisties kind of guy, so I am happy. I am now concerned about my steering head and the recall that I did not know about until reading this thread. Hmmm.
Derek

Maximus, I think it's been said as far as what upgrades is needed, so I won't go down that road. But based on your description of handling in your post, I would say that there is a few things not right with your bike to make it handle that way.

Now, with the process of elimination, start a check list of all the things that need inspection, adjustment or replacement. Once you know how much time, effort and $$$ it will take to get it to handle the way you want, than decide whether you want to continue your project or sell it for another bike.


Good luck

Mike

Nobody said:

Or sell it, and buy another Honda and leave us alone.

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Way to help a guy out, what a ********* response.

Nobody said:

Or sell it, and buy another Honda and leave us alone.

Click to expand...

I appreciated your comments until the last line.

Read my post again, please. I mentioned twice that I was not trying to bash the Max - am just disappointed with handling. But I also knew about the handling issues (to a degree) before purchasing. The thread is really about trying to get going on the right track to fix the problems. Since the forum is full of people who have gone down this track, I'd like their firsthand experience on what they did, how much it cost, and how much it improved things.

Tires seems to me to be the first place to start. After all, they are what hold the bike on the road and are the first things - starting from a ground up approach. Having said that, I mentioned in another thread that the tires are older IRC tires. I've about burned the tread off the rear and the tires - IMO - need replacing anyway. So I'll start here. I'll post back with what I find about pressure, as I last checked and added air a month or so ago. Would like to just have radials, but that doesn't sound like the first, least expensive thing to do.

Sounds like some easy, less-expensive things to do right away are:
check/adjust steering head
check swingarm
check tire psi / new tires (need new tires anyway as tread is almost gone)
install progressive springs up front
check/adjust fork oil, psi, and rear shock settings (1 up or 2 up riding)
etc.

I also should be more specific about what the bike felt like today:
1. I changed lanes to pass various vehichles at various times. This might include roll on's from 65-95. I change lanes and roll on the throttle, while at the same time bringing the bike back to a straight line in the new lane, then after getting around the vehicle, providing steering input to get back into the original lane. The problem "seems" to be that when I provide the steering inputs at speed, I feel a slight "wobble." In fact, when the front wheel tracked inline with the yellow lines on the road, it made an uncomfortable wobble feeling. The bike doesn't seem to stop the wobble until I slow it down. Yet if I just drag race the bike on a straight, it seems stable, presumably because I am just holiding it in a line.

The bike seems to track ok without hands on the bars, so it feels to be balanced ok that way. It just seems that when you are clipping along in a straight line at maybe 65 or faster and you give the bars a little wiggle, the wiggle seems like it wants to stay - rather than everything feeling really solid. It almost reminds me of riding a bike with no oil or air in the forks.... yet I have new fork seals, oil, and air pressure....

2. In a long sweeping turn when throttle is applied, I really seem to get the "bounce" feeling when you hit the bumps. This would seem to me, logically, to be a suspension damping issue. Seemed to feel better riding 2 up than solo if I remember correctly.

3. If you snap the throttle open and closed, the bike will want to climb and dive it seems. My XS11's felt this way also.

4. Braking is more than adequate on the rear. Front is decent, as I recently replaced warped rotors with good ones. However, R1 rotors are planned mods. However, when braking, the nose dives a bit on the stock springs/forks.

So.... hopefully someone else has felt this stuff on a bike. In the past, I've been able to get around this with a good, non-ridged or cupped front tire and with really good forks (new seals, oil, right air pressure), and tight pinch bolts etc.

I'm not sure how the frame flex is identified. I can envision swingarm flex - a much discussed topic on the XS11.... And also without having a monoshock design, I can see how the rear shocks could really mess up your handling in turns if they are out of whack.

Thanks for the help.

had a max in the 80s ... would cross a double yellow line and get a wobble also...id tell people this and they would look at me a little strange

I had to go outside to see if my bike was still out there :ummm:
For a minute I thought you stole my VMAX!
Nope my frame flexxing wobbler is stil out there :clapping:
Welcome to the VMAX!
The best thing I would recomend is to ride a 1970's Norton for awhile and this way when you ride your VMAX again it wont seem so bad you will be like the rest here and think the VMAX handles fairly well.

You can get by with what you have, just with minor changes. Check tire pressure and condition. Stock tires like 38 in the front and 42 in the rear (Metzeler recommends same with the 880's). If you weigh anywhere near 200# with your gear on, you will have to keep the maximum 14#'s of air in the forks. Also, the rear shocks will have to be adjusted for maximum damping (yes it does have a little effect) and one notch down from max preload. The springs front and rear are weak. Of course, check for any loose bearings in the front and in the swingarm. Unless you know the maintenance history of the bike, do not assume anything.

XSiveMaximus said:

So.... hopefully someone else has felt this stuff on a bike. In the past, I've been able to get around this with a good, non-ridged or cupped front tire and with really good forks (new seals, oil, right air pressure), and tight pinch bolts etc.

I'm not sure how the frame flex is identified. I can envision swingarm flex - a much discussed topic on the XS11.... And also without having a monoshock design, I can see how the rear shocks could really mess up your handling in turns if they are out of whack.

Thanks for the help.

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I can tell you from my first hand exeperiance from a couple of mods can change the whole "feel" of the max. I have a '92 that I bought stock last year and while the bike seemed to be in excellant shape I never could get comfortable with the handling. Over the winter I installed progressive fork springs which lowered the front end 2". I also install EBC HH brake pads. I'm still running stock rear shocks and stock bridgestone tires. I also added drag bars and a much smaller windshield.
The change in the bike is tremendous; it handles much better in the corners, no pogo stick diving under braking. I used to have to hit the front brake to get the front wheel to "set" in the corners. Now I can go into the corner much faster, without using the brake, it feels a lot more stable and dare I say confidence inspiring. It is not like a sportbike type handling for sure, just a lot better.
The addition of "HH" brake pads have made a ton of difference too. Gone is the feeling of the squishy front brake. It seemed before I could grab all the front brake I could and if the front tire had the grip it felt like the front brakes were being overwhelmed. The forks would dive 3-4 inches too, not confidence inspiring, especially in corners. Now, with the "HH" pads I can use 2 fingers to stop with ease. I cannot believe the difference! I am going to do the R1 conversion too.
I get a a little bit of the wobble but only it seems at higher speeds and when under heavier cornering loads. I have checked the steering head for adjustment and that is ok. I have to believe that it is just frame flex/ stock tire limitations that I'm feeling. My next set of tires will be Metz 880's to see if that will help.
I hope you get it headed in the right direction so it feels "right" for you.

I bought my Max this spring and it is a stock (2000 model) and on it was a Bridgestone tire up front and a Dunlop in the rear. Both needed to be replaced. In turns it would drift up the turn like crazy. Also you could feel the (out-of-balance tire) feeling in the turn. Pretty scary!! I put on a set Metz 880's two weeks after I bought it and it fixed most of my problems. It really handles well to be completly stock. It doesn't follow road grooves or bridge grooves bad at all. Sometimes not at all. As for brakes, it will nose dive a little in the front but I don't feel like it won't stop. I like the bike!

It will get some suspension/brake upgrades this winter. Some shiny stuff too. Exhaust and stage 1 kit are in route as I speak.......:biglaugh:

Stay with it, these guys are on top of their game and will get you the most gain for the buck. Most know the Max inside-out!

lankeeyankee said:

I had to go outside to see if my bike was still out there :ummm:
For a minute I thought you stole my VMAX!
Nope my frame flexxing wobbler is stil out there :clapping:
Welcome to the VMAX!
The best thing I would recomend is to ride a 1970's Norton for awhile and this way when you ride your VMAX again it wont seem so bad you will be like the rest here and think the VMAX handles fairly well.

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This is a funny post, lankee!

You can see the bikes in my signature. Any of them would substitute for the Norton, eh?

vmaxman99 brought up a good point about rider weight, which I never disclosed. I am around 165 with gear.

Also, I am running EBC HH pads, front and rear.

Redbone mentioned the progressive springs in front, and that they lowered the front end 2". How does that affect rake angle? Does the installation of these springs automatically lower or do you raise the forks up the trees an inch or two?