6k on new clutch and slipping again

[RaWarrior]

So last summer my original clutch was slipping worse and worse by the day, at that point the bike had around 25k miles. It was driveable, but any sort of acceleration in 1-2-3 and even 4th would slip and the motor would spin up.

Seemed like kind of a short life for a clutch, but replaced it with PCWs kit. Stiffer spring, all new fibers, and replaced the 1/2 disc with a full one. Lightly sanded the steels but reused them. The clutch feel was largely the same, as in it engages right near the end of lever travel(you only have to pull the lever maybe an inch to fully disengage it)

Now I'm a bit past 31k miles, and on a 2nd gear roll on yesterday it slipped. I got it to slip again in third, essentially with a WOT roll on and when v-boost kicked in the motor suddenly spun up without the corresponding acceleration. By the end of the day, any smash on the gas in the first three gears in v-boost range would result in slippage. It slips before it breaks the tire loose.

It's not nearly as bad yet as before, but the first time this is how it started and within maybe 1000 miles it was terrible, got worse quickly. Within the course of a 200 mile day it got noticeably worse. I ride fairly hard but don't think I'm that bad on the clutch....never goes to the track and hard off-the-line launches are pretty minimal. I don't ride it or slip it excessively getting going.

So now not even a year and 6k later it's doing the same thing again.

Any suggestions? Going to pull it apart this afternoon since it's supposed to rain the next few days. I'm thinking about lightly hitting the steels with a wire wheel but other than that I don't have a lot of ideas. Don't want to drop another $80 or so for new fibers already. Read a few tips about dunking the fibers in acid to remove glazing or doubling up a steel to increase the stack thickness.

 

[Fire-medic]

Wow, that does sound like not-much service life. Have you measured the friction discs & the steel discs against service specs? Apart from roughing the steels, if you have the Barnett multiple spring pressure plate, you might try replacing the springs or shimming them if you are down on bucks at the moment.

 

[VMike]

My clutch was slipping some right after i got my bike and I thought it needed a new clutch.Also the PO had changed to full synthetic oil which probably was most of the problem.After disassembly and inspection the clutch fibers looked great so i ended up keeping them as spares. The steels were a little glazed so I took them to work and bead blasted and changed oil to Yamalube. Clutch didn't slip any more.If you have access to bead blaster or can find a shop to do it for you have that done.
Mike

 

[RaWarrior]

As usual it turns out to be my own damn fault. The thin black ring immediately behind the spring was in backward...which makes the stack about 1/8" thinner than it should. Guess that explains why all the clutch action was in the first inch of lever travel.

The fibers still look brand new and I can still see the scuff marks on the steels from when I sanded them 6k ago.

The pressure plate surface was polished to almost a reflective shine though. So I roughed that up with a dremel wire wheel.

Also finagled the broken off part of one of the spring retainer bolts. Sean was right again...a small at screwdriver got it out in a minute or so.

I'll find some better bolts for the spring and replace all 6...the stock ones are unbelievably soft.

 

[VMike]

Man that's nice when something ends up being a pretty simple fix. I've had a bunch of those "Doh" moments in my life.:rofl_200:
Mike

 

[gamorg02]

which ring is this? is it under the spring retainer, i can't recall it offhand... does it go spring, retainer (which can'treally go in backwards) then the like 'outer housing'?

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Its the spring seater i assume... It goes in between the spring and the pressure plate. It doesn't allow for the spring to dig in the alloy plate and levels it up. See it on the pressure plate edge...

 

[stilkus]

actually I'm having the same symptoms here, I had a starter clutch Job done, dropped some of the clutch parts in the engine , sean suggested that I go fishing from the clutch side, which required me to take the whole clutch off including the baskets and changed the oil type completely to TOTAL 15w40 .
Okay, about the spring seater, I kinda didn't want to place it so that the spring could move out of the pressure plate, so I placed it with the open side facing out so that whatever happens the spring doesn't slip sideways on the pressure plate.
The question is, is it possible to install the spring seater opposite to what I mentioned before so that the spring actually rises a couple of millimeters ? and If I do so could the spring escape sideways and do damage ?

also I have to mention that I love the oil I'm using now, the engine never overheated on me using it, but I am afraid it could be part of the problem.



here's the oil description:
Total Quartz 5000 15w40 Multigrade Diesel Engine Oil 5Litre Total Quartz Product Features * TOTAL QUARTZ 5000 DIESEL 15W-40 is suited to all diesel engines (passenger cars and light industrial vehicles). * TOTAL QUARTZ 5000 DIESEL 15W-40 is suited to turbo-charged and multi-valved diesel engines. * TOTAL QUARTZ 5000 DIESEL 15W-40 can be used in all operating conditions (city traffic, road, motorways), whatever the season. Specifications * ACEA * A3/B3 * API * SL/CF OEMs * NORM PSA PEUGEOT CITROEN B71 2295 CUSTOMER BENEFITS * Meets the ACEA requirements, guarantee of an high and constant quality for the lubricant. * Multigrade oil. * High viscosity index. * Excellent viscosity stability . * Excellent detergency and dispersancy. * Very high antiwear and anticorrosion properties. * Very good antioxidant, antirust, antifoaming properties. Product Code- 148644 Bar Code- 3425900000795

 

[ouchez]

On my 05 I have used Valvoline Motorcycle oil from the 2nd change and at 21,000 miles no slippage.

O

 

[stilkus]

On my 05 I have used Valvoline Motorcycle oil from the 2nd change and at 21,000 miles no slippage.

O

Wow, 21,000 miles is a good figure. I might also want to know if I flip the spring seater on the pressure plate, will the spring move sideways as the pressure plate edges wont be stabilizing it's sideway movement anymore in that setup????

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Dude that fricking thing spins fast don't start messing with it or you may get in to a bad corner. You for sure don't want to have things braking where you have that spining basket... If you want more pressure get a 50 bucks PCW spring or double your stock one...
For the guys with clutch mods sometimes the spring may not be strong enough to push back the servo plunger back in and in that case the clutch will slip. The temporary solution there is the open the servo bleeder a bit to allow for that extra pressure to exit (oil drips) and not touching the clutch lever. The pressure plate will come back against the frictionplates like its supposed to be doing in the first place...

 

[stilkus]

Okay, after a lot of fiddling and taking the whole clutch basket 3 times trying to point a mistake in the whole setup. I was really pissed to find nothing, installed the friction plates correct, switched the notched ears 180 degrees, flipped over the pressure plates and everything that would come to a human mind. I found out that my new oil is energy saving rated and after searching for that in shadow forums I got the info it had a high molybdenum content , also that was by far the best oil I have used, it kept my engine temperature super cool, even when it was 112 degrees outside my engine never crossed the philips head screw on the gauge (that screw is my benchmark for an overheating engine )

The oil is an API CI-4/SL and it is a new generation Diesel engine oil, too bad they changed the standards of the diesel oils which means very soon the Shell Rotella won't be meeting bike standards , actually it was a very cool oil and I have the right info about it "TOTAL RUBIA TIR 7400", just avoid this oil. I am already planning to do an oil change this evening to a non energy-conserving oil, probably 10w40 one. I have 2 questions now

1. how do I totally flush out the old oil ? is it just a simple drain and top procedure ?
2. how much damage could have happened to my clutch cause I didn't measure the thickness but there was a lot of clutch left on the friction plates ? I drove it for over 800 miles, ran it hard slipped around 20% of the driving time but I noticed it too late too bad I always promise myself to ride nice each and every time I go out and I end up pulling a full throttle. I just love the feeling


I know that this is the turning point of a normal clutch thread to an oil thread, but it had to happen sooner or later

 

[one2dmax]

Hard to know how long the clutch will last. It's pretty much impossible to get it all out in a normal drain. You can get more then normal out if you pull a rear drain (under the mid gear cover) as well as the lower bolt in the mid gear cover (should have a copper washer on it). Then the plug on the right hand side will get a little more.

Sean

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Better to flush it with a suitable cheap oil, run it for some handful of miles and then replace it with the proper oil.

 

[naughtyG]

+1 to what Fred said! That'll dilute whatever's left, and then that gets diluted again with the 'proper' oil. Sorted.

 

[stilkus]

Sean, thanks for the advice. I owe you man .. I changed the oil to a 20w50 weight one and I believe it was 20W/50 API SL and I could verify that I am experiencing no more clutch slippage no more. It is so good to hear the rear tire screaming once again, but the problem is the engine is running hotter than with the previous oil, it could easily reach the radiator fan temperature now which is annoying since I live in a hot country (EGYPT). could this oil be worse because of the easier temp rise or is just the normal with vmax's. temp here is 112 degrees at the moment.

 

[stilkus]

actually the oil I added is around $15 for 5 litres, is this considered to be a cheap one ? also it is recommended here for most of the hondas as it's api certified

 

[wildweasel_pt]

actually the oil I added is around $15 for 5 litres, is this considered to be a cheap one ? also it is recommended here for most of the hondas as it's api certified

Thats really cheap... try upgrading your radiator with a bigger one or a lower temp thermo switch for fan activation... you are using correct oil grade...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINUM-RA...Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d059ad4d&vxp=mtr

 

[stilkus]

well actually upgrading a radiator is not possible at the moment as I'm short on cash. how about bypassing the thermostat, is this possible using the bolt/screw (not sure) under the radiator ( the one with the text on it which facilitates drainage ? ) because if that happens I would certainly get better cooling on highways in the summer

 

[wildweasel_pt]

well actually upgrading a radiator is not possible at the moment as I'm short on cash. how about bypassing the thermostat, is this possible using the bolt/screw (not sure) under the radiator ( the one with the text on it which facilitates drainage ? ) because if that happens I would certainly get better cooling on highways in the summer

lets clarify things a bit. You have three gadgets temp wise speaking. One temp sensor (smaller one behind right scoop) that feeds the info to the coolant heat gauge, a temp switch (bigger one behind right scoop) that activates the fan upon reaching its temperature and the thermostat that is located behind cylinder #4 header right after the water pump elbow. What you are talking about is making a bypass on the temp switch to allow you to manually turn the fan on and for you to do that you just need to splice the 2 wires on that temp switch and get a regular toggle switch in parallel. I think there is a "how to" guide here in the forum somewhere... That will allow you to turn the fan on just by flipping the switch to on thus bypassing and overriding the temp switch...
Another think you might do but i do not recommend is removing the thermostat. That will allow you to run cooler more time but will induce more temp variations on the engine and it will not cure your heat peaks, only the fan kicking in earlier or a better rad (or even an oil cooler) will remediate that...