92 Jap Import wont shut off

[1200fan]

My first post here, so hi everyone :eusa_dance:

I'm sorry for my first post to go straight to a problem, and for this loooong post, but this is doing my head in and the bike has got to be on the road in a few weeks...

Basically, after lots of looking I bought a Vmax off ebay and was done over, my mistake as I had the bike transported over instead of making the trip to look at it.

The bike was unloaded from the transporter van and was completely dead, wouldn't start at all.

This was solved by finding a rotten terminal for the blue/white starter wire in the RH switchgear connector. One new terminal and a replaced section of wire and the bike now starts on a dime.

However, it now won't turn off!

With the bike running, switch off the ignition key and the bike keeps running with no difference. Flip the kill switch and the bike turns off but can still be turned over on the starter.

K/Switch and Ignition off: no dash lights, no lights, the bike turns over on the starter button.

K/Switch off and Ignition on: neutral light on in dash, side and headlights work except for front sidelights, the engine turns over on the starter.

K/S & Ignition on: Bike is as normal.

With the K/S and Ignition off, the fuel pump also clicks about once a minute.

To turn the bike off completely I need to disconnect the battery.

I have refurbed the ignition switch and RH switchgear from the guides on here, replaced the melted headlight wiring with thicker wire, wires with cuts and frays in were replaced/treated, and connectors have been cleaned up and dielectric grease put on the terminals. No result so far.


I'd found a thread on here about a similar problem, where the red and brown wires from the ignition were shorting out. However, here there are no cuts/frays in the wires and they don't touch enroute to the fusebox. I've also tested the wires with the multimeter and there is no continuity. There is no connector for the ignition switch, the switch and loom wires were twisted together and taped over.

I can remove the ignition switch completely from the bike and it still turns over on the starter.

I can remove the ignition fuse from the fuse box by the dummy tank and the bike still turns over on the starter.


I'm thinking now it could be the blue/white starter wire, or the red/white and red/black wires going to the kill switch (which also feed the fusebox and fuel pump).

I've found on here that the blue/white wire is negative switched, which means the starter button is the ground, am I right? Would this have anything to do with the problem?

Some other points:

- The sidestand and clutch switches have been disabled. Would this affect the starter cut out relay at all as the wire for these goes to the relay?

- The RH switchgear has been modified. The fuel reserve switch is now the headlights off/side/main. The start button has therefore had the blue and red/yellow wires taken off it to go on the light switch, so there is just the blue/white starter wire and black earth wires on it. Would this make a difference? The fuel reserve switch is in a seperate box bolted underneath the switchgear.

- I have the 90' onwards European loom.


I'm sorry again for the long, long post but I would be really grateful if anyone could get back with a idea of where I can go from here with sorting these electrics out. Time is running out for me!

 

[Miles Long]

My first post here, so hi everyone :eusa_dance:

I'm sorry for my first post to go straight to a problem, and for this loooong post, but this is doing my head in and the bike has got to be on the road in a few weeks...

Basically, after lots of looking I bought a Vmax off ebay and was done over, my mistake as I had the bike transported over instead of making the trip to look at it.

The bike was unloaded from the transporter van and was completely dead, wouldn't start at all.

This was solved by finding a rotten terminal for the blue/white starter wire in the RH switchgear connector. One new terminal and a replaced section of wire and the bike now starts on a dime.

However, it now won't turn off!

With the bike running, switch off the ignition key and the bike keeps running with no difference. Flip the kill switch and the bike turns off but can still be turned over on the starter.

K/Switch and Ignition off: no dash lights, no lights, the bike turns over on the starter button.

K/Switch off and Ignition on: neutral light on in dash, side and headlights work except for front sidelights, the engine turns over on the starter.

K/S & Ignition on: Bike is as normal.

With the K/S and Ignition off, the fuel pump also clicks about once a minute.

To turn the bike off completely I need to disconnect the battery.

I have refurbed the ignition switch and RH switchgear from the guides on here, replaced the melted headlight wiring with thicker wire, wires with cuts and frays in were replaced/treated, and connectors have been cleaned up and dielectric grease put on the terminals. No result so far.


I'd found a thread on here about a similar problem, where the red and brown wires from the ignition were shorting out. However, here there are no cuts/frays in the wires and they don't touch enroute to the fusebox. I've also tested the wires with the multimeter and there is no continuity. There is no connector for the ignition switch, the switch and loom wires were twisted together and taped over.

I can remove the ignition switch completely from the bike and it still turns over on the starter.

I can remove the ignition fuse from the fuse box by the dummy tank and the bike still turns over on the starter.


I'm thinking now it could be the blue/white starter wire, or the red/white and red/black wires going to the kill switch (which also feed the fusebox and fuel pump).

I've found on here that the blue/white wire is negative switched, which means the starter button is the ground, am I right? Would this have anything to do with the problem?

Some other points:

- The sidestand and clutch switches have been disabled. Would this affect the starter cut out relay at all as the wire for these goes to the relay?

- The RH switchgear has been modified. The fuel reserve switch is now the headlights off/side/main. The start button has therefore had the blue and red/yellow wires taken off it to go on the light switch, so there is just the blue/white starter wire and black earth wires on it. Would this make a difference? The fuel reserve switch is in a seperate box bolted underneath the switchgear.

- I have the 90' onwards European loom.


I'm sorry again for the long, long post but I would be really grateful if anyone could get back with a idea of where I can go from here with sorting these electrics out. Time is running out for me!

Welcome to the forum!
It's too bad your first post has to take the form of an electrical nightmare.
My first question would be - are you still in touch, or can you contact, the person that is responsible for all the electrical modifications? Would he/she be willing to help you sort thru the problems, and explain WHY the mods were done?
Probably not. My second question is - do you have a wiring diagram for your bike, and/or a service manual? Both should be considered "first to buy", whether you are having problems with the bike or not. Best money you will ever spend.
As for your immediate concern, the bike not shutting off, I would suggest that you first look at the feed wire for the kill switch(red and white) This is supposed to originate at the fuse box, on the terminal marked "ignition" You stated that pulling this fuse did not kill the bike, therefore the kill switch is being fed from another live source. This would explain why the bike will not die when the ignition switch is in the off position. The ignition switch/wiring are working correctly if there is no power to any of the four fused circuits, when the switch is in the off position. When in the "park" position, power is only fed to the tailight and fron running lights.
I'm thinking now it could be the blue/white starter wire, or the red/white and red/black wires going to the kill switch (which also feed the fusebox and fuel pump). This is wrong. The fusebox is fed from the brown wire, directly off the ignition switch. The red and white ignition wire is just one of four hot wires on this circuit. It's the energized kill switch that feeds the fuel pump and ignition components.
Find out where the kill switch is getting it's power, by tracing the power wire backwards.
As the owner, you are free to do as you want with your bike, but if it was mine, as soon as possible I would restore the wiring loom to stock, in particular the safety switches. Just my humble opinion.
Good luck, keep us posted!

 

[PATMAX]

Righto Mate. Get that thing back to stock. Sounds like you are pretty talented judging by all the work you have done so far. It is a big job but a new wiring harness sounds in order. Less than 50 pounds and I would change the hand control with the starter buttons. It should take a weekend to replace the harness. There are a few upgrades to consider while you are doing this. One is called the crimp fix. There is also heavy duty starter upgrade that is easy to do and sold through Ebay UK. This will save you so many headaches in the future chap.
Don't be a stranger, this is a great site and use the "search" option to learn everything!
Welcome from Florida!

 

[naughtyG]

Hi and welcome to the best Max site on the interweb.

I had the exact same problem on my '86 a couple of years ago. I rode it very slowly in heavy traffic for a long time one day (Daytona Octoberfest), and when I parked it it wouldn't turn off! The only differences were that mine had not been electrically modified (other than by myself for a better horn, fan switch etc) and taking the main fuse did kill the electrics.

I actually wired a manual switch next to the main fuse and placed it under the faux-tank for a while so I could carry on riding. I then did a LOT of troubleshooting - and I'm pretty handy with my electrics - but to no avail. I even unwrapped most of the loom I could get to, but still could not find the fault.

In the end I was lucky to have a spare loom on hand, because I'd bought an '86 parts bikes. I ended up swapping the loom altogether, and that fixed it. It wasn't actually as bad/difficult as I had thought it to be, because most of the components have their own 'sub-looms' that connect into the main one.

So do yourself a favour and grab another loom (preferably from the same year or close to it) and swap it. All you need to do is remove seats, side panels, faux-tank, airbox, scoops, loosen the plastic panels behind scoops for access, drop the rubber heatshields attached to them (again for access), remove the plastic panels on both sides around where the ignition switch is and open your headlamp. From memory that gives you the ability to unplug everything and cut the cableties holding the loom onto the frame. It really is easier than it sounds!

 

[1200fan]

Many thanks for the speedy replies!

Miles, that sounds good about the fusebox, will look at that after work today.

If no joy again, looks like I will have to admit defeat and get the replacement loom.

One thing I'd forgot to mention, the ignition switch itself is not the normal Vmax one. It looks like a generic Yamaha one, the barrel itself is the same and looks the same inside but there is a steering lock at the bottom instead of the mounting plate. The wires are the same (red, brown, blue, blue/red) and it checks out ok on the multimeter. Would it be ok running another switch like this on the VMax?

Many thanks again everyone, much appreciated and I will keep you updated.

 

[bazwell]

Welcome mate!

I can't read all this now, just a quick scan. But, sounds like someone has done some bodging of wiring.
The indicator relay also houses a kill relay for the bike and starter. It lives under the LH scoop and is the box with about 7ish wires.
If the ignition has been changed around, or some of the safety switches bypassed, that relay can be fooled into thinking it is OK to crank over with the kill switch off and the key out.

It might be a bit of a pain to trace out this problem!

 

[ninjaneer]

With the bike running, switch off the ignition key and the bike keeps running with no difference. Flip the kill switch and the bike turns off ...

based on the wiring diagram for a '90-'03 non-north american model, flipping the ignition off should have disconnected the battery from the fusebox, which should have removed voltage from the "kill switch" producing the same result as if the ignition switch was "on" and the "kill switch" was "not run". this tells me something's fishy with the fuse box, like perhaps someone jumped the 10A fuse.

...but can still be turned over on the starter.
K/Switch and Ignition off: no dash lights, no lights, the bike turns over on the starter button.

now because you can still turn it over even though the ignition switch and kill switch are "off", this tells me that something's the matter with the red/white wire feeding into the starter circuit cut-off relay. like perhaps it's shorted or spliced into something else other than the relay.

K/Switch off and Ignition on: neutral light on in dash, side and headlights work except for front sidelights, the engine turns over on the starter.

similar "suspicious red/wire" hypothesis based on previous two symptoms

K/S & Ignition on: Bike is as normal.

THANK GOD :rofl_200:

With the K/S and Ignition off, the fuel pump also clicks about once a minute.

something's fishy with the red/black wire coming from the starter circuit cut-off relay and/or the fuel reserve switch. neither should be receiving voltage if the kill switch is in the "off" position. i am wondering if the red/white and the red/black wires are shorted together.

i am starting to wonder what may be the matter with the cut-off relay, if all the wires i identified are "intact"

{edit}

...

what he said ^.
{/edit}

 

[Miles Long]

Many thanks for the speedy replies!

Miles, that sounds good about the fusebox, will look at that after work today.

If no joy again, looks like I will have to admit defeat and get the replacement loom.

One thing I'd forgot to mention, the ignition switch itself is not the normal Vmax one. It looks like a generic Yamaha one, the barrel itself is the same and looks the same inside but there is a steering lock at the bottom instead of the mounting plate. The wires are the same (red, brown, blue, blue/red) and it checks out ok on the multimeter. Would it be ok running another switch like this on the VMax?

Many thanks again everyone, much appreciated and I will keep you updated.

The OEM switch only has three wires , red (power wire coming from main 30 amp. fuse-this should show battery voltage at all times) brown (with switch in "on" position, this wire is energized and feeds the fuse holder)and blue (with switch in "park" position, this wire feeds the taillight and front running lights only. The key can be removed in the park position.
Sounds like you may have an extra switch position/power wire(blue/red)
Trace this wire back from the switch, to see what it is feeding, if anything.
Cheers!

 

[1200fan]

Thanks again for your replies everyone!

I've had a look again at the bike last night and followed the wires for the red/white and for the signal fuse wires as well. Couldn't find anything untoward and the red/white wires are going to the correct places, i.e. kill switch, coils, fusebox, starter cut off relay.

Ninjaneer, I do need to check the starter cut off relay, but need to find some jumper leads to run off the battery to make it "live" to test the connections.

Although I had another look at the R/H switchgear and found a couple of badly frayed wires behind the connector, especially the blue light switch wire. I had already repaired the starter wire on this connector, why didn't I notice it then? Arghhhh :bang head: There is then a chance that the kill switch is shorting here - will take the terminals out this evening to test.

Miles, I've got the Euro loom which has the four wires - the blue red is for the sidelights which the US/Canada models don't have.

Thanks again and I'll let you know what happens!

 

[1200fan]

Well apart from the knackered sidelight wire the RH switchgear checks out ok. All other terminals were taken out, checked, cleaned and treated with electric grease and no difference.

With one kill switch wire in the ignition seems to behave itself, but with both of them in the problems return.

Two other things I've found though:

With the bike switched on the starter cut off relay gets pretty hot, so I would assume this is gone. I've traced the four wires coming back from the connector and they are fine so I think the problem is with the relay itself. I need to get some tiny jumper wires to attach to the bikes battery and the relay to test it out properly.

I also took the main 30A fuse out under the seat and the bike still turns over! :ummm:

A look at the wiring diagram and it shows two wires coming from the battery positive, one to the starter relay and one to the 30A fuse. Mine has:

One wire going to the starter relay

Another wire from the same terminal on the starter relay to the 30A fuse

30A fuse has two wires - one going to reg/rec and the other going to the crimp in the loom (this last bit might be a bit hazy as it was nearly midnight at this point!)

Is this wiring ok or does the fuse need to be between the battery and the starter relay?

Many thanks again and apologies again for all these epic posts...

 

[Miles Long]

Could you (or any forum member), post a link to the European wiring diagram?
Cheers!

 

[ninjaneer]

Could you (or any forum member), post a link to the European wiring diagram?
Cheers!

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=8507


@1200fan: you know, it would also be VERY helpful if you could post pictures

 

[Miles Long]

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=8507


@1200fan: you know, it would also be VERY helpful if you could post pictures

Thanks, Ninja-san. I've printed out the loom diagram, eventually I will review the posts to date.
But for now, it's cycle time! Beautiful day in the G.W.N., sunny and 18c!
Cheers

 

[1200fan]

Yep photos are no problem. Just been to the garage to get the pics. I have more but photobucket is being a pain at the moment.


These are the red wires going to the starter relay terminal. 1 is the wire going direct from the positive battery terminal. 2 is the other wire going from the same relay terminal which goes to the main fuse.

The Haynes diagram looks like these two wires both come directly from the positive battery terminal instead of this configuration?


Here's another view of the relay from the other side, showing the wiring for the red wires:

This is the wiring by the coils. Wire 3 is going from the main fuse into the loom and leading to the crimp (which has had the crimp fix done).

Hope this is of help. I'm working on the bike again after work tomorrow so let me know if you need any others.

Many thanks again!

 

[Miles Long]

I'm looking at a wiring schematic for your bike at the moment - thanks , Ninjaneer! A bit different than the U.S./Can. models, for sure. Is that sidelight integrated into the headlight? what's the story on that "passing switch"?
As for the photos, I can't fathom out why the previous owner would have done this mod(hot wire for the main fuse off the starter relay, instead of the battery terminal), but I can't see this as being part of your problem. Nevertheless, I would put it back to stock, this should be easy.
Your first post - you go thru a list of scenarios, with the result being "still turns on the starter".....but.......will the bike actually start? (just the starter motor energized, or the ignition system as well?)
However, even answering this question is "jumping the gun" My approach to solving this multitude of problems would be to start at the one that you mention first - that the ignition switch does not "switch" at all. In all models, the switch receives it's power from one source only - that big fat red wire, directly off the main fuse, no where else. Then when turned to the "on" position(forget about the lighting functions for now), the red wire energizes the brown wire, the only source of power for the fuse box. If all this is working correctly, the ignition system(including kill switch and starter relay) cannot be powered up, with the ignition switch "off" AND the starter motor cannot turn, because the relay is not energized.
first thing to do - get that fuse box powered up, only by the ignition switch! Cheers!

 

[ninjaneer]

These are the red wires going to the starter relay terminal. 1 is the wire going direct from the positive battery terminal. 2 is the other wire going from the same relay terminal which goes to the main fuse.

The Haynes diagram looks like these two wires both come directly from the positive battery terminal instead of this configuration?
...

although not physically the same setup as what is shown in the schematic, what you have is electrically equivalent. this is not part of the problem

This is the wiring by the coils. Wire 3 is going from the main fuse into the loom and leading to the crimp (which has had the crimp fix done).
..

seems ok. just in case you didn't realize, this is not the "fuse box", miles and i are talking about. there is another one that he and i are questioning. it normally sits kinda next to the fuel pump under the driver seat. it has fuses for headlight, ignition, fan, signals.

 

[1200fan]

Cheers Ninjaneer, good to know it's ok :eusa_dance:

Miles, I don't think the ignition switch is the problem - the bike can turn over with it completely removed and the red wire just dangling, not connected to anything. Something must be triggering this wire though, so unwrapped the loom by the battery (again, ha ha ) but nothing untoward.

Could this be any thing to do with the reg/rec that the red wire goes to? I have an aftermarket one, I think an Electrex one? This is another problem I need to sort as this isn't bolted to the frame, its just dangling by the side of the bike...

 

[ninjaneer]

Could this be any thing to do with the reg/rec that the red wire goes to? I have an aftermarket one, I think an Electrex one? This is another problem I need to sort as this isn't bolted to the frame, its just dangling by the side of the bike...

I also took the main 30A fuse out under the seat and the bike still turns over!

the only way for the bike to still be able to turn over with the 30A out, is if the R/R is connected directly to the battery. This isn't stock, but isn't "abnormal". some guys will do this mod, to help with "charging" issues. is this the case with your bike? trace the wire from R/R and see if it leads directly to the battery. if the mod was done correctly, the modder would have snipped the R/R off of its splice with the ignition switch wire, connected the freed R/R wire to a second fuse, and connected the second fuse to the battery. i am thinking that if my guess that the R/R has been directly connected to the battery has any merit, that the R/R wasn't snipped loose AND the PO simply connected a "jumper" going from the R/R to the battery. This would explain why the bike still turns over even though the 30A was removed

 

[Miles Long]

Quote Miles, I don't think the ignition switch is the problem - the bike can turn over with it completely removed and the red wire just dangling, not connected to anything. Something must be triggering this wire though, so unwrapped the loom by the battery (again, ha ha ) but nothing untoward.

I realize you must be frustrated with your bike and its' many electrical gremlins, but please carefully review my last post. I'm not suggesting the switch itself is faulty, I'm saying that you have to start somewhere towards putting things back to OEM operation. Meaning returning the switch to it's intended use - energizing the brown wire to the 4-gang (thanks, Ninja) fusebox.
- and then there's that little inquiry about whether or not the bike actually starts, or just turns over???
Keep the faith, Brother!

 

[1200fan]

My apologies Miles, and I'm very, very grateful for your help.

It's just that the brown wire to the dummy tank fuse box is energised on its own, with the ignition switch disconnected and it's a case of finding out how its getting this power without needing the red ignition wire.

Having said that, the bike can still turn over with the ignition fuse pulled out, so maybe the brown wire is being bypassed somehow. The signal fuse still cuts out the instrumentation/indicators etc when removed, and the headlight fuse still cuts out the lights when removed.

Ninjaneer, cheers for the tip on wiring the R/R. I will have another check today, but I think there is just the one wire from the battery terminal to the starter relay, so the R/R isn't connected directly. The red wire goes from the R/R to the loom, and the black ground wire is connected directly to the battery negative terminal.

I don't have the standard R/R though - instead I have this:

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RR48.html

There is a 4-pin female connector coming off this which the red loom/black ground wires are connected to, so there are two pins free. I will try putting the wires to the other two terminals and see if this makes a difference.

I also need to figure out if this needs a connection to the frame to be earthed - if so I need to find a way to bolt it down - I found it shoved between the frame rail and the fuel tank.

Well, back to the bike!