COPs Ignition: Why all the fuss?

[desert_max]

First, let me just say that I have been an electrical engineer for about 35 years, so lets stay with empirical data and facts - not marketing hype. I'm really interested in hearing honest testimonials on COPs installations on the Vmax Gen 1. But, consider a few points in the review and assessment of perceived improvements after the swap.

I see lots of folks doing the COPs conversion here - probably more than on any other "vintage" bike. I'm wondering if, at least on the Vmax, it's mostly because the coils (at least the front ones) are such a pain in the *** to get to once the factory bits start to go away. Aside from a lot of the hyperbole found with regard to describing the conversion, let's face it, ignition upgrades in general, and cops mods in particular are definitely not the best bang for the buck.

Most COPs coils tend to have reduced secondary voltage levels - typically half or less than a full sized ignition coil. I'm pretty sure that, often, the perceived "improvements" in performance that folks report when upgrading their ignitions systems are due more to the fact that they've simply replaced faulty original components with working ones than the fact that the new ones are a "performance" upgrade. In fact, a decent working ignition (where before it might have been substandard) will mask also issues in carburetion - simulating even better improvement. The reverse can also be true (perfecting carb tune can compensate for weak ignition). This has long been discussed within the context of engine performance.

Have I missed something in this story? Definitely don’t see anything really wrong with them, it’s just that I would never call it a performance upgrade.

I can say one thing for sure. If my ignition is solid using OEM-style coils, I will dang sure spend my hard-earned money elsewhere.

 

[[email protected]]

Yoyre not missing anything.

The COP mod does NOT provide any type of HP increase over a set of proper functioning OEM coils.

That has been stated here on the forum. I believe its been dyno proven as well.

Not quite sure why it became so popular. Us vmax guys like to mod stuff and sometimes fix stuff that ain't broke.

 

[Fire-medic]

The #1 reason I can think-of, it's easy to swap-out any non-performing stick. I run 'em, pretty-much for that reason, I have Gannon's set-up. It's easy to swap into another bike to see if the coil(s) is/are bad.

If I wanted an ignition performance upgrade, I'd install my green DYNA coils.

 

[gentsvmax]

Hey Desert Max, I just got my second set, no resistor and I also run an Ignitech unit.
I do notice a difference only because my 85 still had its 85 model year coils, so far as I
know.
There were slight crack's but not split open like some I've seen, and they ohm'd out
for what that.s worth. I have seen the badly split coil's ohm out but still run shity.
I like the addition of a newer type of coil tech and like mabdcmb said, I just like to
mod something, stuff, anything....

 

[Zeus36]

I did not install COPS for performance reasons, more of a troubleshooting issue. Here is one my old posts:

"...Spent the morning installing the COPS and I am VERY happy! Starts on half a revolution instead of a couple of engine turns. No more breaking up at 7K in first gear, no more dropping RPMs at idle after it gets hot. No more burbling at steady low cruise.

Here I thought all of this was carb related...

1. The bike now starts quicker.
2. The 'Max used to want to die at idle when it got hot, so I had to bump the idle to 1250-1300 RPM to keep it running at stoplights. (I assumed it was carb related) With COPs, I'm back to a smooth 1000 RPM at idle. (even with my California model which is supposed to be set to 1100 +-50)
3. I had a hesitation just after Vboost around 7K before COPs. That is now gone.
4. Even though I left my stock coils in place, you could remove them to lose a few pounds.
5. It is easier to route the COPs wiring, since it replaces the thicker spark plug wires.
6. By retaining the old coils and plug wires, you can switch between the two systems if one is giving you trouble. Don't think I will go back though...

You will not gain any horsepower from doing this mod. The bike will run exactly as it did with new factory coils. The mod eliminates the plug wires and there was a chance one of the factory coils was failing on my bike. This mod will also remove a potential point of failure for the system - the high voltage wire from the ignition coil to the plug.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Have I missed something in this story? Definitely don’t see anything really wrong with them, it’s just that I would never call it a performance upgrade.

I don't disagree with anything you have said but it depends on what you mean by 'performance'.
If by replacing old components that are no longer functioning at optimum levels and you gain what has been lost isn't that a 'performance' improvement?

It also reduces the number of components in the system from twelve to four so in the event of an ignition problem diagnosis is simplified.

As Mr Zeus36 says, I too felt that the bike started quicker and felt sharper.

I fully accept that had probably been acheived by taking tired components out of the system and only put me back to the performance of a new bike.

Bottom line, IMO, is that if you are happy with the ignition then any benefit in changing to COP's is marginal.
If you have ignition problems then because of the simplicity of fitting them then that's the way I'd go.

Then there are those who do it 'just 'cos I can' (mea culpa)......

 

[dannymax]

Bird o Prey and I put together the first known info on this mod for the Gen I VMax 10 or 12 years ago. There was never any suggestion of big performance gains other than the snappier starting. Altho no-one that I know of rehab'd their oem coils, wires & caps before going to COP's for comparison purposes. It was just a cool mod for the reasons already mentioned.

There are some unscrupulous COP's marketers making ridiculous claims which simply aren't true.

There is a proven horsepower gain however in switching to COP's...a weight savings of maybe a pound or two can be realized by removing the beefy OEM coils...this would translate into what....a couple tenths HP?

 

[desert_max]

You know, this is EXACTLY why I enjoy this forum (and the Vmax) so much. You guys have your feet on the ground. I should have known that especially for a bike so begging to be modified, it's not always about performance improvement. (But almost always).

Thanks for the chatter. As I said, I should have known...

 

[CaptainKyle]

I think it is about them being easy to change & a little weight difference is it. I personally don't think they are any better than a stock system in good condition. I did not see any difference in HP on the Dyno's that I have seen . The cracks in stock coils can be epoxied or siliconed & are usually just fine. In all my years of turning wrenches I have changed more bad cops than regular coils .

 

[Parminio]

It also reduces the number of components in the system from twelve to four so in the event of an ignition problem diagnosis is simplified.

That's exactly why my friend Jason did his Vmax with it. He was chasing all kinds of ignition issues and finally had just had it. He installed the COPS basically out of frustration. When it solved all his problems he chunked his OEM system and never looked back.

That I think is about the only reason to ever go to it. For me, it's like most "mods". People do them because hey, it's a MOD. That must mean it's better, right?

I akin them to the people that still overclock video cards and processors for no reason.

 

[likembikem]

I also had the rough idle when hot, and dying at red lights. Front coils so hard to get to, and the rear sitting on top of the battery taking up space. Glad to free up some space and eliminate my rough, high temp idle.

 

[Hijinx1812]

I’ve got a set for sale in the “parts for sale” section!

 

[sdt354]

Simplicity is what COP's are about for me. Easy to change, and eliminating parts. Together with a digital ignition, it brings my old 89 up to the present.

 

[Traumahawk]

Unfortunately people dont realize that the stock Vmax system works well, but does to be maintained....like everything else. The stock wires are solid cooper core wires. Kinda like that old penny that is left outside for a while......the ends of the wires will corrode, and not conduct electricity that well. The old fashioned remedy for that was to clip about 1/4 of an inch off the wires, and then its brand new wire.

Unless your going high dollar COPS, the the COPS arent as powerful as the stock coils. Almost, but not quite. 26K volts, but the stock 30K. (The most popular COPS used for Vmax replacent. I do know the COPS the Sean sells are from VERY specific years, for the highest output). They are quicker and simpler to change out, and its easy to keep a spare with you. Plus, if you need a new one, you can get one at the local dealership...etc. Stock coils are getting harder to get.....unless you go aftermarket...like dyna.

Bottom line, are COPS a good replacement....yes. Is there HP or reliability increases with COPS, not if your ignition system was in good working order to start with. COPS are a good replacement, as long as you realize what they are good for, and can do.....and what is hype.

 

[02GF74]

COPs eliminate the high tension leads which are the weakest link.

 

[dman]

I did not install COPS for performance reasons, more of a troubleshooting issue. Here is one my old posts:

"...Spent the morning installing the COPS and I am VERY happy! Starts on half a revolution instead of a couple of engine turns. No more breaking up at 7K in first gear, no more dropping RPMs at idle after it gets hot. No more burbling at steady low cruise.

Here I thought all of this was carb related...

1. The bike now starts quicker.
2. The 'Max used to want to die at idle when it got hot, so I had to bump the idle to 1250-1300 RPM to keep it running at stoplights. (I assumed it was carb related) With COPs, I'm back to a smooth 1000 RPM at idle. (even with my California model which is supposed to be set to 1100 +-50)
3. I had a hesitation just after Vboost around 7K before COPs. That is now gone.
4. Even though I left my stock coils in place, you could remove them to lose a few pounds.
5. It is easier to route the COPs wiring, since it replaces the thicker spark plug wires.
6. By retaining the old coils and plug wires, you can switch between the two systems if one is giving you trouble. Don't think I will go back though...

You will not gain any horsepower from doing this mod. The bike will run exactly as it did with new factory coils. The mod eliminates the plug wires and there was a chance one of the factory coils was failing on my bike. This mod will also remove a potential point of failure for the system - the high voltage wire from the ignition coil to the plug.

What cops did you go with and how much were they?

 

[Fire-medic]

What cops did you go with and how much were they?

Be aware the early analog ignition of the '85-'89 bikes is known to have problems with the COPs installation. You will also find people who say, "I run no resistors on my COPs, I have a [1985-'89] VMax, no problems!" It may-be the circuitry of the analog CDI box from the early years [1985-'89] is more-sensitive to differences in the impedance presented by the COPs used, where it isn't as-much an issue with the newer digital ignition of the 1990-'07 bikes.

Based upon the input of members on-here and others elsewhere who have early [1985-'89] analog ignition boxes, who have reported failures of their ignitions while using COPs without resistors I would not recommend eliminating the use of resistors on a early model [1985-'89] analog ignition motorcycle. Apparently, the load presented to the analog ignition box of those years is of critical value to longevity in the component.

As mentioned, I use Gannon's COPs kit on a 1990-'07 bike ignition, and I haven't had issues. It starts easily, and it runs fine.

These bikes are prone to getting cracks in the coil housings as the bike ages, which usually doesn't affect the operation of the bike, i.e., the cracks are cosmetic, and do not usually cause ignition coil malfunction. You can fill the cracks with whatever you want, to close the cracks: JB Weld, some other epoxy like Duro, some hard-setting sealant, you could probably even use a soft-setting sealant. Or, you could leave 'em as-is. If the bike starts firing poorly, that's a time to investigate the coil resistance values, and continuity of operation across the rev band.

dman, I suggest you invest time in using the 'advanced search' function accessed in the upper right-hand corner after clicking on 'search.' Use some different terms, like COP, COPS, sticks, ignition, & etc. There are many threads and extensive posts about this for both early [1985-'89] models and late models. Doing your own research will allow you to gain knowledge about the COPs conundrum, and then you can make an informed decision. If you choose to install COPs, post your experiences over-time.

Sean Morley [email protected] sells the Ignitech ignition box which is a replacement for the OEM ignition box. Check with him for availability and pricing. The Ignitech has additional functions, like a rev-limiter, which none of the Gen I VMaxes have, stock. You can also control other functions with it, like VBoost, NOS injection, ignition curves, and more. Reports of Ignitech failures have been few, and if you plan to mod the bike engine, it presents more opportunities for control over what's been done to the engine. Another topic to research under the 'advanced search' function.

If you find the info here on the forum has contributed to your knowledge, enjoyment, and repair of your bike, consider becoming a donating member.

Here are a couple resources for you. Read the 'new owners' thread by Ra Warrior as you will gain a lot of info which may help you sort or modify your bike, including the entertaining 'what oil' question. The service manual you should save to your computer, and print-out a copy, put it into a loose-leaf binder and refer to it for your use in maintaining/fixing your bike.

VMX12- Service-Manual.pdf (vmoa.net)

(38) New Vmax Owner FAQs....new members please read! | Yamaha Star V-Max VMAX Motorcycle Discussion Forum (vmaxforum.net)

 

[dman]

Be aware the early analog ignition of the '85-'89 bikes is known to have problems with the COPs installation. You will also find people who say, "I run no resistors on my COPs, I have a [1985-'89] VMax, no problems!" It may-be the circuitry of the analog CDI box from the early years [1985-'89] is more-sensitive to differences in the impedance presented by the COPs used, where it isn't as-much an issue with the newer digital ignition of the 1990-'07 bikes.

Based upon the input of members on-here and others elsewhere who have early [1985-'89] analog ignition boxes, who have reported failures of their ignitions while using COPs without resistors I would not recommend eliminating the use of resistors on a early model [1985-'89] analog ignition motorcycle. Apparently, the load presented to the analog ignition box of those years is of critical value to longevity in the component.

As mentioned, I use Gannon's COPs kit on a 1990-'07 bike ignition, and I haven't had issues. It starts easily, and it runs fine.

These bikes are prone to getting cracks in the coil housings as the bike ages, which usually doesn't affect the operation of the bike, i.e., the cracks are cosmetic, and do not usually cause ignition coil malfunction. You can fill the cracks with whatever you want, to close the cracks: JB Weld, some other epoxy like Duro, some hard-setting sealant, you could probably even use a soft-setting sealant. Or, you could leave 'em as-is. If the bike starts firing poorly, that's a time to investigate the coil resistance values, and continuity of operation across the rev band.

dman, I suggest you invest time in using the 'advanced search' function accessed in the upper right-hand corner after clicking on 'search.' Use some different terms, like COP, COPS, sticks, ignition, & etc. There are many threads and extensive posts about this for both early [1985-'89] models and late models. Doing your own research will allow you to gain knowledge about the COPs conundrum, and then you can make an informed decision. If you choose to install COPs, post your experiences over-time.

Sean Morley [email protected] sells the Ignitech ignition box which is a replacement for the OEM ignition box. Check with him for availability and pricing. The Ignitech has additional functions, like a rev-limiter, which none of the Gen I VMaxes have, stock. You can also control other functions with it, like VBoost, NOS injection, ignition curves, and more. Reports of Ignitech failures have been few, and if you plan to mod the bike engine, it presents more opportunities for control over what's been done to the engine. Another topic to research under the 'advanced search' function.

If you find the info here on the forum has contributed to your knowledge, enjoyment, and repair of your bike, consider becoming a donating member.

Here are a couple resources for you. Read the 'new owners' thread by Ra Warrior as you will gain a lot of info which may help you sort or modify your bike, including the entertaining 'what oil' question. The service manual you should save to your computer, and print-out a copy, put it into a loose-leaf binder and refer to it for your use in maintaining/fixing your bike.

VMX12- Service-Manual.pdf (vmoa.net)

(38) New Vmax Owner FAQs....new members please read! | Yamaha Star V-Max VMAX Motorcycle Discussion Forum (vmaxforum.net)

Ya I've read a ton and it seems it was big about 2 years ago and then everyone stopped producing their kits. I'm running a 2004 vmax right now, two cracked coil packs on the rear side. I ohm tested the coils and the plug wire to coil was pay put pf spec on both.. 50k and 80k.. point being there's so much info that I can't pin point a good cops setup that works for people. I'm looking for the coils, wires for the coils and a resistor that people have used and tested. Anyone out there have a complete set up avaliable? I'm currently talking to Sean right now but he doesn't have the resistors on hand.

 

[Fire-medic]

Then you probably saw that the Denso are supposed to be better than the Mitsubishi. Finding a stick coil which has the same resistance as the OEM coil, or has a proper-value resistor added to it to simulate the OEM load to the CDI box, should work, though I'm no E.E. (though my wife is, retired now, after a 41+ year career, with a single employer!). There are a couple members on-here who probably could come-up with helpful info, but if someone's CDI box fries after trying what they suggest, there would be a lot of whining, at-least from the guys who let-out the smoke from their wire harnesses after doing the modification. That can get expensive, especially if you're one of those old-time types who favor the British marques with their positive-ground Lucas wire harness smoke.

 

[DreamV4]

It would look interesting to use some bulbs as extra resistor. I just checked resistance of car turn signal bulb, it is 0.5 Ohms,