Ethanol lawsuit

[richwrench]

I like the idea that they're fighting against more ethanol, but what do you think their chances are ?


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EPA_ETHANOL?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME

 

[EvilD]

hope is goes somewhere

 

[Slacker]

People starve around the world and we burn food. Makes sense to someone. It takes about the same amount of std fuel to make it's equivalent of corn gas. With that comes worse mileage and from cross talk I seen on a blog of professors, students and scientists, ethanol makes O Zone alright, at the ground level, not the atmosphere. Not good for living things.
We have the Bakken oil fields that really needs opened up. It has many times the oil Saudi ever had, plus it is top of the line crude, easy to process compared to the sludge from the Mid East.
We can't just hope on bio fuels anyway. What will happen during poor growing seasons? One would have to make some serious decisions, walk to work or go hungry... We speak about not enough food to go around now.
I heard it also stated that if the earth would warm up two degrees, which it is cooling off presently, crops would grow better and disease would decrease. Where's EGore to spread some more hot air around?

 

[COP RUNNER]

i . I HOPE THEY WIN ! .. SCREW THAT " BULLSHIT ETHANOL " !

 

[RaWarrior]

Time to break out the politician-to-American citizen translator:

"The Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol industry group, said the EPA could have avoided market confusion if they had approved ethanol for more vehicles."
-translates to-
The Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol industry group, said the EPA could have avoided this inconvenient lawsuit if they had shoved this legislation into effect faster, and we're kind of upset with them since this could hurt our bottom line"


"The EPA has said a congressional mandate for increased ethanol use can't be achieved without allowing higher blends."
-translates to-
"The EPA has said a congressional mandate they created based on narrow minded science and special interest groups(i.e hippies) can't be fufilled if we can't violate existing laws that we also created.



"The ethanol industry has maintained that there is sufficient evidence to show that a 15 percent ethanol blend in motor fuel will not harm engine performance."
-translates to-
"The ethanol industry has maintained that we have created sufficient evidence and manipulated enough statistics in out favor to convince the American public to buy new cars under the guise that they are going green and saving the planet every time they burn some corn."


"They say increased consumption of the renewable fuel creates new jobs and replaces imported oil."
-translates to-
"We sure hope nobody finds out about the Honda Clarity that's on sale in California."


Screw ethanol, screw hybrids, screw batteries. Hydrogen will be the future of the automobile, and everybody knows it. Batteries are weak, hyrbids are a tokenism at best, and ethanol is just flat out a shitty idea any way you look at it.

 

[SpecOps13]

richwrench: Simple Answer,,,,, 0.00000% Chance.

Although, it almost feels like "Hell Froze Over" here in Florida.:confused2:

 

[hubeerjw]

As far as a lawsuit goes, as long as they provide the current 10% at the pumps (or even non blended fuel), that leaves the choice up to the user to decide what they put in thir vehicle. That will probably not happen, but... if it would, that would reduce many issues.

Now, growing up in a farming community, ethanol isn't bad, BUT it does take as much $$ (or slightly more) to produce a gallon of ethanol as it does for a gallon a regular gasoline, and yes, you will have a reduced HP output (and MPG), but a slight amount. If you are running E85, I believe the average MPG is reduced by 20%, so E15 should be less than a 5% difference. But it can add up to be a substantial amount, I will give you that. Ethanol has reduced emissions, but also reduced performance. There is a dispute about energy in ='s energy out.. and that isn't good if it takes as much energy to create a gallon of ethanol as the output of a gallon of ethanol. If that is the case, then you have basically spent a bunch of time and $$ to transfer energy into a usable form. Ethanol blends haven't been around for all that long, so there are going to be new ways to refine the making of ethanol, so lets not be so quick to discard it.... look at drag racing. There are many alcohol users out there for the power it has, for the cooling capabilities, and the more alcohol, the less emissions (though I doubt there are many racers concerned about emissions).

I will say there are many vehicles out there that aren't suited for ethanol, and that is why there should be regular and blended fuels available (now the price can be what ever the suppliers set) If you have an old car and it can't use an ethanol blend, and the non-ethanol fuels are more expensive, then that may be the price you pay to have an older vehicle.

And as far as the comment about us burning food, yes we do, but it is all relative. And if I was seeing kids die of starvation maybe that should be a sign NOT to procreate.

All I'm saying is we shouldn't count ethanol out quite yet. As other people have commented, there are a bunch of groups out there that try to sell it for more than it is, but I think it is too soon to throw this idea away.

Jeff

 

[Diablotin]

I think regular gazoline won't last forever and is not really what we call a clean energy.
Soon or later a substitute will be needed. Ethanol, Hydrogen or electricity were already experimented decades ago, unfortunately nobody really want to take the move.
After saying that, I don't think they started to add ethanol for that purpose but for reducing cost and increasing margins.

 

[dannymax]

This adds a bit of clarity to the "Cash fo Clunkers" program doesn't it!! unk:

 

[Slacker]

'And if I was seeing kids die of starvation maybe that should be a sign NOT to procreate.'
Here's a little older info. This subject is all over the net.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htm

The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics

• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Every year 15 million children die of hunger[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days![/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. Hunger in Global Economy[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In 1997 alone, the lives of at least 300,000 young children were saved by vitamin A supplementation programmes in developing countries.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.[/FONT]

Current:
Feed My Starving Children
This Christian charity sends packets of food to more than 60 countries. In 2009, more than 416,000 volunteers packaged more than 96 million meals for hungry children worldwide. The food mixture was formulated by Minnesota food scientists to address the needs of malnourished children.
For more information, visit www.fmsc.org.

 

[Garbilizon]

Ducati's tanks are bending:
http://www.stayontheblack.com/ducati-in-class-action-lawsuit-for-gas-tank-issues

 

[hubeerjw]

'And if I was seeing kids die of starvation maybe that should be a sign NOT to procreate.'
Here's a little older info. This subject is all over the net.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htm

The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics

• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Every year 15 million children die of hunger[/FONT]
• [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children [/FONT]Current:

Feed My Starving Children
This Christian charity sends packets of food to more than 60 countries. In 2009, more than 416,000 volunteers packaged more than 96 million meals for hungry children worldwide. The food mixture was formulated by Minnesota food scientists to address the needs of malnourished children.
For more information, visit www.fmsc.org.

Those are quite disturbing figures, and even though this is going to sound bad, but lets say everyone in the US and Europe doesn'y by "smelly stuff" and instead dontae the $$ to feed the hungry and it saves thousands of lives... what does that tell the hungry?
1: If we do nothing, someone will be there to give us food, and we have to do absolutely nothing in return
2: It is o.k. to continue on with our current lifestyle

So now that you just saved thousands of lives and haven't taught them anything, you just created a thousand more people that can now create thousands of new lives.... and instead of helping the problem, you just compounded the situation.

Anytime you "give" something to someone, you are rewarding their current behavior. If their current behavior was acceptable, they would normally not need anything "given" to them.

Jeff

 

[diggerzmound]

The whole ethanol idea was a stimulus attempt by our government. Here in the Midwest its made a noticeable difference, corn prices are more stable than ever.

I am not promoting Ethanol at all, but everyone sees nothing but a big hopper that corn goes in and fuel comes out, it is not the case. After the corn has been processed it is in mash form. Although the process to create Ethanol has taken its desired effect on the corn, it is not thrown out. There is a constant flow of trucks leaving these plants with what they call distillers grains. These grains still contain a good amount of protein and other minerals for livestock consumption. Distillers grains are marketable in many livestock markets. Feedlots buy the stuff up just as fast as it can be hauled in, most plants have contracts with the feeders who take the distillers grains.
So are we really wasting or taking the food from people? Probably a small percentage, but I guess it gives something for the naysayers to whine about!

I've been running 10% for 7 or 8 years in everything except my hi compression atv engine. I am very tempted to get my atv jetted to accept 85% ethanol. If mine was a drag race only machine I would run E85 in it. It'sh less expensive than methanol and available at the pump all around this area. There are stock car classes running the stuff!

 

[Slacker]

Well Jeff, fact is, people are starving. That was the subject. To go a bit farther then, some places have poor weather for growing crops and sustaining critters. In many areas, people are ran out of their areas of living. Their critters and crops are destroyed by not so good a people. Not all are just sitting on their dead azzes, waiting for someone to drop them a loaf of bread out of the sky. Don?t get me wrong, there are some places that won?t help themselves, like on a certain Caribbean Island. For instance though, in Africa, the Muslims run around slaughtering people and destroying what they once had. Bloodletting happens every day. Few will care. It's over there and many have no interest in protecting the weak. It's a dog eat dog world.
As far as burning, like corn, among other crops, why use an equal amount of std energy to make crop gas, then receive less economy from it? Too, if crop gas invents O Zone at the ground level... Maybe we could shoot off some crop gas missiles into the atmosphere and ignite them?
It's like the wind farms. We pay for that. Uncle Sugar puts out the money. If he didn't, there would be no wind farms. These farms evidently aren't profitable. A local lib congress gal insured her little bubbie got 107 mil for his wind farm project out of the last stimulus blow money. She's one of those who is leaving D.C. in a short. She can go be her bro's secretary.
Agreed, Hydrogen is the way to go, but I've seen the 'pros' speak that the feasibility of this is 30-60 yrs down the road. Most talked the latter. It will have to be privately funded, if we are around then. Uncle Sugar's piggy back is missing, let alone have any change in it.
Mark

 

[old timer]

Legitimate ideas all...but the real issue is money...just like it always is...follow the money trail...WHO stands to benefit the most...there's your answer and take it one more step and you'll see WHEN this will happen .:damn angry:

As the great philosopher Antonio Montana ( a political prisoner ) once said while sitting on a Miami beach..." first you get the money , then you get the power , then you get the women "...:eusa_dance: