How to go about handling mods in a logical way.

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firefly

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The vmax is a top heavy bike made for straight riding & high speed riding, but the bike is not good at either with the stock setup so we quickly realize that the bike needs to be modified to handle better in the real world riding ( all riding situations, street, freeways and canyons.)
It is generally agreed upon that the front fork suspension and the rear shocks are substandard 20 years old technology.
It is also generally agreed upon that radial tires on the max improve performance but the problem is that no radials are made for the 15 inch stock rear wheel thus wheel changing is necessary .
In my opinion handling is the first area to modify the max and that includes brakes too.

The max handles best when the weight is shifted more to the front for example if the wt is distributed 50% front & 50% rear the goal is to have it 55% in front 45% on the rear so when the rider sits on the bike, it will go back to a 50% front & 50% rear or something like that, this will correct the light front feeling, the heavier the weight of the rider the more the front needs to be lowered. It?s like having a passenger and the bike?s steering feels light and hard to control.
In some cases with riders that are closer to 300 lb, extending the swing arm shifts the wt forward and gives the stability needed.
I personally like to have a 55% front with my weight on the bike, it feels more stable and directional stability is improved BUT the stock springs are too soft for that to work properly so getting firmer springs is a MUST, I chose to use racetech springs & emulators, but other options are available like progressive springs, works springs or the ultimate inverted forks $$$$.

Lowering the front by simply raising the forks in the triples is just to get the ?how will it feel? and shouldn't be done as a long term solution if the STOCK springs are still in, if firmer springs are installed then this lowering is acceptable,
Though the benefit of lowering the forks internally using lowering blocks (which is basically a Plastic pipe spacer) has the added benefit of stiffening the forks due to the increased overlap.

Having a plan going about modifying the front is important, something to ask oneself is what kind of riding do I do? Long touring riding demands a different setting than street riding; canyon riding has demands that are different than drag racing.
It is very important to decide if you will eventually install radials while having the front lowered. say you lowered the front internally 2 inch then installed a 17 inch front radial wheel, the bike will become too low and hitting the underside will be frequent while turning will become awkward. An 18 inch radial is also shorter than the 18 inch stock bias tire so keep that in mind to due to the 55 or 60 profile.
A lower bike does not necessary handle better, actually the higher the COG of the bike the easier to lean the bike at a sharp turn. So too much lowering has a negative effect on handling unless the bike is only used for straight line drag racing.
What is rake?
Rake is the angle of the steering head (or steering axis), measured from vertical. It is sometimes described as caster.
What is trail?
Trail is a little tougher to describe, but a quick look at attachments should help. Trail is the distance between the center of the contact patch of the tire (the point where a plumb line, hung from the front axle, touches the ground) and the point where the steering axis hits the ground.
What is offset?
Unless you are choosing a complete system of inverted forks and triples don?t worry about that, changing the offset affects rake and trail too while keeping the steering head angle unchanged.
Any lowering whether from the forks or wheel size or both will have an effect on rake and trail angles.

How does rake change affect handling?
A smaller rake angle, one that is closer to vertical, tends to make a bike react quicker to steering inputs. A bigger rake angle tends to make a bike more stable but at the expense of increased steering effort. Cruiser type motorcycles, which are designed for stability above all, tend to have bigger rake angles , while in sports bikes the emphasis is on instant steering response have a smaller rake angle. With more rake, the steering head of the motorcycle tends to drop more with steering deflection, giving rise to the tendency of some raked-out cruisers to flop over into low-speed turns, knowing what to expect when changes are made will let you make an informed decision with predictable results. A smaller front wheel will decrease the rake angle thus making the bike?s steering quicker and nimble, also lowering the forks reduces the rake resulting in quicker steering and both are needed to improve max handling.

How does trail change affect handling?
More trail increases the tendency of the front wheel to return to a straight-ahead position when deflected by a steering input or bump. The word trail refers to the position of the contact patch behind the steering axis and road intersection. Because the rolling resistance of the tire is located behind the axis, trail makes the contact patch hang behind the axis, With zero trail, the front wheel would be flicked sideways by the slightest bump & wobble at the handlebar. A big trail would make the bike heavier to steer.
Using a smaller wheel as in 17 inch will decrease the trail also making the bike steering lighter and more nimble, It also reduces the contact patch very slightly and reduces the under steering Max is notorious of.

Over steering

This is where the bike seems to want to fall over into the turn, or turn tighter as you relax your pressure on the bars. If you could accelerate, that would tend to "pick" the bike up. As it is, you have to "grip the bars" in a curve and that is a most unsettling feeling to have. You sort of have to "hold the bike up" to feel confident.
Changes in the bike?s geometry: too short of a wheel base and too little trail & If the front end sits too low, over steering will be the result. Low air pressure will allow the front end to sit low too. A tire that is too small for the front will do it too. One of the most common reasons is that the owner mounts a large tire on the rear. This sets the front lower by comparison and it will over steer.

Under steering

This is where the bike doesn't even want to lean, It will try to stand up in the curve if you reduce pressure on the bars. It makes you really work to go into a curve and stay there.

Neutral steering

Neutral steering makes it easier to ride long distances, go through curves with confidence and save your wrists,shoulders, back & neck muscles. When a rider becomes really comfortable with a bike, the rider only needs to "see a curve" and the bike seems to just "go through the curve."
It is this characteristic that causes some bikes to be very easy to ride and others seem to be a wrestling match.
1-Internally lowering the forks is the logical starting point, a way to try it before you do it is simply raise the forks one inch from the triples, ride the bike for a week or so, if the stock springs are still in, be careful the bike will dive more under hard braking and the front fender might get scratched against the radiator grill. The cheapest way is to just change the stock spring with a firmer spring from progressive, works or racetech and use a lowering spacer,this will firm up the front in two ways one is the firm spring two is the overlap that happens as you shorten the forks internally also reduces its travel. If you are going to replace the springs and open up the forks then I would recommend racetech emulators, they really control the dive better.

2-When its time to change tires Metzler 880 in 80 profile front and rear ( 110/80x18 and 150/80x15) will lower the bike equally front and rear keeping the front lowering that was done before at the same ratio.

3-Now its time to replace the rear shocks before thinking of radials, you might change your mind and stay with Metzler 880 in the 80 profile bias ply, the bike handles sweet with these minor changes .

4-If you need a radials pacifier then Go for it but its more $$$$ to spend, it?s a little complicated than slapping a rear fatter wheel and getting a radial front tire in the common sizes of 120/60x18 & a 180/55x17, this combination really messes up any gains from radials as it messes up with the bike geometry ( rack & trail) with a front 18 and a rear 17 the center of gravity is shifted backward due to not enough front lowering loosing the good effect of lowering the forks that was done earlier, now is the time to ask yourself whether to go with 17 front and rear or go with 18 front and match it with an 18 rear also how wide a wheel do you need? The wider the wheel/tire combo the less agile the bike gets in twisties but feels stable in straight riding the same effect also happens when the bike sits too low front and rear ( good for straights bad for canyons ). Radials come in shorter profiles 55/60 for the rear 60/70 front, there is a big size variation between tires of the same size with different manufacturers so paying attention to the tire size is like the icing on the cake ( fine tuning ) Metzler site provides a PDF listing of exact tire sizes in details like 1- permitted rim width, 2- max tire width, 3- max tire height, 4- max weight, 5- weight of the tire 6- tread depth ( important if looking for longer life tires) here is an example: you put a 180/55x17 rear and that lowers the bike by 3 cm ~ a little more than one inch while putting a radial 18 front say a size 120/70X18 or a 130/70X18 the bike is not lowered enough in the front and you will get a feeling as if you have a passenger ( light uncontrollable steering).) The front wheel 17 inch makes the radials worthwhile, leaving the front 18 is OK but a rear 18 is a must and you will have to deal with a VERY limited choice of tires, not only that but the 17 inch front makes the bike feel lighter and nimble in all situations by reducing the rake and trail. I think the 18 inch front defeats the purpose of the whole handling thing by lowering the rear and not much lowering in front, transferring the weight of the bike further backward instead of moving it forward.

5-The center of gravity could be manipulated in two ways: up/down or forward/backward or both which is usually the case when we use 17 inch wheels and lower the forks internally. The forward/backward shifting of the center of gravity has the most profound effects on the bike?s handling. The more forward the COG the more weight moves to the front and the opposite is true, the up/down shifting of the COG is limited by how much clearance the rider needs for the way they ride, the lower the rear of the bike the harder to lean it through turns.

6-Lowering the front from the forks is different than using a smaller 17 inch front wheel, doing both does help max become more nimble and controllable in all riding conditions.

7-Swing arm notching does weakens the swing arm , people will argue about it but the reality is it does, you don?t notice a thing until the swing arm starts distorting.

8-Stock wheel / tire height & width vs 17 vs 18 inch combos based on Metzler, other manufacturers will vary in dimensions for the same sizes ?, unfortunately 18 inch radial tire sizes are so limited that using 18 inch tires becomes a trap.
110/90X18: W=4.48 inch H=25.86 inch 150/90X15:W= 6.14 inch, H=26.06 inch as you can see the front is 0.2 inch lower than the rear, sitting on the bike transfers the weight backward thus making the front light and hard to control so imagine having a passenger to? That is why lowering the forks one inch or a max of 1.5 inch makes a huge difference in the bike?s stability and handling! Part of the wobbling problem experienced by fellow maxers is due to the excessive weight transfer to the rear provided the steering is torqued properly.
120/70X17: W=4.92, H=23.66 180/55X17: W=7.00, H=24.80 inch, this lowers the bike 2.2 inches front and 1.26 rear
120/70X 18: W=4.92 H= 24.61 180/55X18: W=7.20 H= 25.86 inch
Going with a too wide rear wheel tire combo even with notching the swing arm will mess up the alignment of Rear to font, in other words the front wheel will not be at the same line with the rear, some would argue that it is not perfectly aligned from the factory anyway, BUT the factory sets it within acceptable limits! To their design, this is a fact unless you go for chain drive & that is another story or having the bike for show only, remember that the wider the rear tire the more sluggish the bike at turns!!!
The swing arm clearance varies greatly from one max to the other, some will take a 180/55X17 and others will rub and not fit, the rule is to leave 1/8 to ? of an inch as clearance between the tire and swing arm because with time, passenger and hot weather the tire swells a little and might rub when hot.
Also the lower the rear of bike the harder it is to lean it in a turn and don?t forget the lost clearance makes the kick Stand drag while the bike is leaned over which can be very dangerous. In drag racing a lower bike is better but other than that handling suffers a lot.
The myth of lowering the center of gravity make the bike easier to lean is definitely busted , the opposite is true the higher the center of gravity the easier it is to lean the bike with less effort! Have you ever looked at an off road bike and see how high it is? It is not just for clearance but also to make it agile and maneuverable.
Using a 17 inch rear does make the RPM go slightly up, this is a BIG PLUS in street and canyon riding, also great for drag racing but not so good for long high speed riding as on freeway stretches so people start changing the final drive with a one from a venture to get the RPM to normal again, But another way of accomplishing that is simply choose a 160/70X17 rear tire size if you really care for handling, unless a fat tire is a must have then change the final drive .
Tire profiles also make a big difference in handling, a round rear tire gives a natural leaning feeling vs a tire like the Z6 tends to fall in the curve much quicker initially (its made for sport bikes not a bike like the max) an 880 Metzler or the Z4 are round and give a more comfortable gradual lean during a turn, other tire brands are also good if you choose the rounded profile vs the mushroom shaped tire.

9-The choice of handle bars also makes a big difference in your control over the bike, drag bars are common among maxers but a drag bar tends to push your elbow in your side when doing a U turn or in tight parking lot maneuvering, it also makes the rider unconsciously grip the grips so hard that it causes strain on the arms, neck, shoulders and back increasing rider fatigue during rides. Drag bars also destroy your ability to counter steer making turning the bike a wrestling match, yes people still ride with drag bars and may say they feel fine but that is because they haven?t tried anything better. Wide handle bars also create another problem, they put your wrists, elbows and shoulder in a less ergonomic position thus causing fatigue and diminished control in emergency maneuvering, have you ever seen a bike with ape hanger bars split lanes? This is the absolute worse handle bar position ever and it also means that the rider have little control over the bike!

10-Finally the goal of modifying the max is to achieve NEUTRAL steering so the bike becomes controllable, easy to ride in curves, tight traffic and straights.

11- Brakes: Throw away the brake pads that came with the bike and get EBC HH pads this is the first thing to do if you want your rotors to live longer! SS lines + speed bleeders are a MUST. Just doing that gives a 50% improvement in stopping power, Other modes like R1/R6 calipers and FJR master are also known to improve the stopping ability of max ?two finger stopping?. Changing the clutch line to SS is a big plus and gives better friction zone control, speed bleeders make bleeding and changing fluids almost a pleasure, Staying with a high quality DOT 4 is all you need, going to a DOT 5 is not worth the effort and might have an adverse effect on rubber components that are designed for DOT 3 & 4.
I hope you find it useful information
 

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Holy shit! Gonna have to print that book out and read it in between ticket calls today.

Looks like good info, thanks for posting that up.
 
First off Hi, I am new to this forum, but have had my Vmax since May 06. Bought it new. My first new Vehicle ever! LOL I ride it to work every day, Just had the 16,000 service done.

Lots of good info above I will have start tinkering right away.

However, what do people think about the frame bracing? I have a front fork brace, that was money well spent for sure. Also have replaced that riber washer between the triple trees, deff another good mod. I'm looking at the frame Bracing that goes diagnal across the motor on both sides. Any thoughts? Have people had good resultes?

Also I want to switch to a lower pro tire for the rear and also get a braced swingarm. As both of these are a bit pricy to do though, I will have to do one soon and wait a bit for the other. Witch seems to make the biggest diff, ie witch should I do first?

Thanks all.:cheers:
 
I can't believe you've waited this long to mod it. Beware! Once you start you can't stop.
I have done the mods you are wanting to do and couldn't be happier. Check out the pics of my K6 in the garage. It'll give you an idea of what it will look like.
 
Ok so would you say the larger rim with a lower pro tire made a bigger diff than the braced swing arm? I can only afford one or the other right now.

Also I have seen mixed reviews about the frame bracing. Can anyone say they noticed a diff with them on. I have heard solid motor mounts are as good. Thoughts?
 
Ok so would you say the larger rim with a lower pro tire made a bigger diff than the braced swing arm? I can only afford one or the other right now.

Also I have seen mixed reviews about the frame bracing. Can anyone say they noticed a diff with them on. I have heard solid motor mounts are as good. Thoughts?

Tires and wheels are the single best handling mod to the Max. The frame braces work! :thumbs up: I am running a stock swingarm and while I'm sure it needs braced, it will be fine for what I need it for. I am done spending more moola on this thing.:whistlin:
 
I agree, a rear wheel and radial tires are the biggest difference you can make.
I also think a frame brace works as well.
Don't believe whats said about the difference between the weld on unit from Sportmax or Dale Walkers bolt on brace; the bolt on brace works fine and made an instant difference on my bike.

If the neck bearings aren't set up right tho' nothing is going to hide that.

Rusty
 
I agree, a rear wheel and radial tires are the biggest difference you can make.
I also think a frame brace works as well.
Don't believe whats said about the difference between the weld on unit from Sportmax or Dale Walkers bolt on brace; the bolt on brace works fine and made an instant difference on my bike.

If the neck bearings aren't set up right tho' nothing is going to hide that.

Rusty

Agreed! Anything is better than nothing when it comes to frame braces. I have Dales too and while they won't win design awards they do what they are intended to do. Plus they don't cost a million bucks and with the flat metallic paint I have welding on the frame was out of the question.

Set the head bearings for sure. That was one of the first mods I did.:thumbs up:
 
Thanks for the info guys. I will have to get the bolt on braces.

Here's another question. I would like to get a wheel that will take a 200. I know that the stock swing arm will not take a 200. I've got a 170 to fit. I'm temped to try a 180. Has any one done it with a stock rim and swing arm?

Does anyone know if a rim designed for a 200 will be ok for a 170 untill I can get the swingarm either notched or a better braced one? Or could someone recomend a rim size that would fit both. I know that putting to wide of a tire on a narrow rim can make the tire peaky in the middle and actualy give less traction and poor handling. Hence my concern.
 
Thanks for the info guys. I will have to get the bolt on braces.

Here's another question. I would like to get a wheel that will take a 200. I know that the stock swing arm will not take a 200. I've got a 170 to fit. I'm temped to try a 180. Has any one done it with a stock rim and swing arm?

Does anyone know if a rim designed for a 200 will be ok for a 170 untill I can get the swingarm either notched or a better braced one? Or could someone recomend a rim size that would fit both. I know that putting to wide of a tire on a narrow rim can make the tire peaky in the middle and actualy give less traction and poor handling. Hence my concern.


LOL Yes you CAN get a 180 for the stock wheel but remember that it isn't a true size as the stock wheel is only 3.5 inches wide so it brings in the tire. I have an 18"x5.5" wheel and 180 tire on the stock swingarm. A 200 is a NO GO! You will have to notch it to fit. The 180 is as close as I would like to get. Not to mention how much harder a 200 would be to get on the bike. If you go with a 200 you need to have a 6" to 6.25" wheel width to properly fit the tire.
 
kmp123,
I recommend a Bridgestone Battlax BT-45V front paired with a Shinko Tour master 230 rear.
That is the Best combo for riding hard in the twisties I have used yet and I have tried pretty much every combo that fits our stock rims.
I'd also get some aftermarket fork springs like Progressive Brand (my choice) or Ractech, they make a Huge difference as well.
And I recently added some weld on Frame Braces and they make my Vmax a LOT more stable in the curves too.
A lot of guys get aftermarket shocks too but I personally like the stock shock, I keep them set at 2 and 2 for everyday riding and 3 and 3 for riding hard in the twisties.
 
The "logical" way to improve handling would be to fix the middle then work your way out to both ends. 17" radials front and rear help transition left to right, but won't do much for the 85-100 mph sweepers where you feel like there is a hidden hinge in the middle of the frame.

1. solid motor mounts..... help tie the steering head to swing arm pivot. like on the Venture that the Vmax was based on..... you do know that there is a bolt-on frame tube up front, right?

2. do some fucking thing with the left side by the gas tank.

(a) take off the left side casting that holds the passenger peg and muffler mount
(b) notice that the holes in the casting are more than twice the size of the bolts that go through them.
(c) shit in your hands and rub it in your hair while pondering the engineering specs of (b)
(d) install rearsets that have more precise bolt hole tolerances or similar device lacking pegs.

3. replace fork springs with Progressives, or Race Techs w/ Gold Valve emulators, drop the clamps 1" down on the tubes.

4. replace shitty stock shocks with Prog 412s (or better). Don't get shorter than stock length, dumping the bike on it's ass takes weight off the front end, not good.

5. beat yourself over the head with old fork springs while contemplating if there could possibly be a shittier set of tires than the stock Bridgestone Exedras (Metz ME880s close 2nd)

6. get rear wheel converted to 17" with weld-on flanges (cheapest way to get a 17 on the back), the 18" front is not as big a deal as losing the 15" rear.

7. replace handlebar with a flatter bend, such as a drag bar.

8. ponder more exotic options such as complete set of 17" wheels, USD front end choices, billet swing arms, etc.......
 
how did you get a 170 rear to fit? I'm wanting to widen my rear tire, and found a post awhile back doing a washer swap, I can't understand how this would work? Thanks, Steve Kent
 
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