Intimidators vs. Gold Emulators + Ohlins springs

[Fire-medic]

OK, here is my tentative plan & observations. I like working on my bike, I have access to a machine shop/machinist friend who used to work as that for Crane Cams when they were in Hallandale Beach FL before they moved to Daytona Beach. While not a pro mechanic, I can do much of my own work. What I can't do or don't want to do, I have friends or local shops who can.

I got a '93+ front end to replace my '92; FZR1000 4 pot brakes, used 298 mm rotors; roller bearing steering head from All Balls; Russell s.s. lines, I haven't bought pads but will do HH pads probably from EBC as that's what my friend's shop sells a lot of. I saw the Ohlins deal, so I am thinking of their fork spring pair, but I have not previously considered a shortened/lowering spring. Why should I do the lowering spring? I don't have a problem reaching the ground on my VMax. I am just under 6' & over 215 ready to ride.

For awhile I was going back & forth about the FJR1300 front master cyl for the brakes (read everything I could find on here via 'searches,' and contacted 'Vintage Brakes' for some info, he was v. helpful & patient, I posted my findings) and finally decided to replace the stock master cyl w/a new stock one. My hand fits the brake lever for reach. I wear an XL or XXL glove if they run "Italian."

I am trying to decide between the Intimidators and the Gold Emulators. It sounds like the Emulators are less $ & are known to work well, but I kinda lean towards the Intimidators because if I am understanding their function, they are quick to react to small imperfections in the road and also the big hits as well. It sounds like they may be a step up from the Gold Emulators. They sure are in $! So, who says "Gold Emulators," who says "Intimidators?" And I am assuming they will work with the Ohlins spring set if I go that way. I am very familiar w/the VMax's internals & have torn them completely down & rebuilt them before.

I have 13" Prog. Susp. shocks, no, not the $400+ ones, but these should do OK for now.

Ultimately I want to use an 18" rear wheel to go f & r radials but that will be 'later' & for now I will keep the stock wheels & bias tires.

So I am open to suggestions. Thanks.

 

[SpecOps13]

By lowering the front, the bike will handle corners with more precision.

Since you're going up in rear wheel size later, I wouldn't go more than 1 inch lowered front. Lower it internally...


I have Gold Emulators on the 94 with BG Fluid from Sean Morley but I wouldn't have a clue about better or worse. Sean may be able to tell you...


Oh, Not totally true: Stock is much worse...:rofl_200::rofl_200::rofl_200:

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

Good question, I have been considering a set of one or the other as well.

 

[Redbone]

I have Progressive lowering spring kit (2") with 5 wt oil and Intiminators. I picked up the Intiminators on a introductory offer of $150 otherwise I probably would of went with the emulators.
The ride is a little better but I need to cut maybe a 1/8" off to fine tune the preload the ride will be better over the bigger bumps.
I think the spring has too much spacer pushing on it. I'm also don't think I'm getting full travel either so I'm going to check the fluid level as well.

 

[Fire-medic]

I have Progressive lowering spring kit (2") with 5 wt oil and Intiminators. I picked up the Intiminators on a introductory offer of $150 otherwise I probably would of went with the emulators.
The ride is a little better but I need to cut maybe a 1/8" off to fine tune the preload the ride will be better over the bigger bumps.
I think the spring has too much spacer pushing on it. I'm also don't think I'm getting full travel either so I'm going to check the fluid level as well.

This sounds like a lukewarm endorsement, so you have not 'totally transformed' your front end by the installation?

When you installed the 2" lowering kit, is your front of the bike height actually 2" lower from what it was? I can't help but think that would lead to all-kinds of parts dragging. I can drag metal easily enough now, I don't think the height reduction would make my riding more enjoyable if I dragged metal even more.

I do not have a sensitive seat to be able to consider the reduction of 1/8" in a spacer inside the fork as making a significant difference, I could imagine I might notice a difference if I changed something (spacer length) 1/2". With the Intimidator you don't have to drill damper rod holes, so you can always go to stock setting just by removing the units. But, if either one makes a big difference, why would that matter? I just don't read a Big Difference comment in your post. Your perception is, "a bit better but not a lot better?"

 

[Redbone]

This sounds like a lukewarm endorsement, so you have not 'totally transformed' your front end by the installation?

When you installed the 2" lowering kit, is your front of the bike height actually 2" lower from what it was? I can't help but think that would lead to all-kinds of parts dragging. I can drag metal easily enough now, I don't think the height reduction would make my riding more enjoyable if I dragged metal even more.

I do not have a sensitive seat to be able to consider the reduction of 1/8" in a spacer inside the fork as making a significant difference, I could imagine I might notice a difference if I changed something (spacer length) 1/2". With the Intimidator you don't have to drill damper rod holes, so you can always go to stock setting just by removing the units. But, if either one makes a big difference, why would that matter? I just don't read a Big Difference comment in your post. Your perception is, "a bit better but not a lot better?"

Not by the intiminators, I've had the springs for 2 years and that did transform the suspension! When I put the intiminators in I didn't cut off enough of the spacer to compensate, hence a little stiffer ride than what I think I can get out of it. The spring is the problem because of the spacer being too long (I may end up cutting more off but I need to ride it to test), I'm going to double check the fluid level too as I measured the volume of oil then poured it in not checking the measurement once it was in the fork. My plate was pretty full last winter with removing the engine for transmission overhaul and didn't put enough time in when I installed the intiminators.
Over stock the setup I have right now there is no comparison. My stock setup was bad, diving on braking and in the corners, diving so much it did not inspire confidence at all. The progressive spring cured the diving completely.
So it may sound less than blown away in my previous post but that was just comparing the addition of the intiminator. they are not going to transform the forks like the springs will. The intiminators are there to control (dampen) how spring reacts to chassis and/ or wheel movement, they will make the ride "plusher".

 

[vmaxcruzer]

I have Progressive lowering spring kit (2") with 5 wt oil and Intiminators. I picked up the Intiminators on a introductory offer of $150 otherwise I probably would of went with the emulators.
The ride is a little better but I need to cut maybe a 1/8" off to fine tune the preload the ride will be better over the bigger bumps.
I think the spring has too much spacer pushing on it. I'm also don't think I'm getting full travel either so I'm going to check the fluid level as well.

How much preload over the top of the fork tube do you have now?

 

[vmaxcruzer]

My 2 cents for what its worth.
Stock...CRAP!

Progressive with 1" internal drop, a lot better.


Same as above with Ricor Intiminators , even better, but counter productive.

Stock springs with Ricor Intiminators. Super crap!

Race tech straight rate spring for 210 lbs, intiminators and 1" drop with 10wt oil. The best so far!
I get a plush ride, responsive rebound and stacked damping when braking or shifting weight to the front. Feels like my old sport bike at times. My sag measurement fell right in. I'm happy with this set up, all I will be doing as far as tuning will be to possibly shorten my preload this summer but I'm going to ride it for a while before making a change.

 

[MaxMidnight]

I have Emulators + Race Tech springs.

Noticed a significant improvement over OE; everything seemed far more controlled and the front of the bike felt connected to the rear...BUT

Hitting large bumps was purgatory due to the thump that came up into the handlebars and threatened to shatter my wrists (perhaps a slight exaggeration there!)

The fix was to set the static sag which absolutely transformed matters and eliminated the pain.

It may seem like a lot of prating about but it is worth the effort.

Can't comment on the Intimidators as I don't have any experience of them. Assuming that Intimidators perform better than emulators the extra outlay may be justified if you want to push the front to the limit.

The Emulators can go around corners far quicker than my meager talents will allow me so I was happy to save a few ?'s and invest the savings elsewhere.

 

[Redbone]

How much preload over the top of the fork tube do you have now?

I'm not sure Kenny, like I said I paid it too little attention when I did this and did not set the sag properly. I think I'm only getting about ~3" of travel. Hopefully I will be able to tackle it this weekend.
EDIT: I changed the +/- to ~ b/c I am only getting around 3" of travel. I am going to put a zip tie on one fork leg to see what I'm actually getting.

 

[vmaxcruzer]

I really started to over think this spring change so much so that I couldn't wrap my mind around it. I finally sat with a clear mind and with pen in hand started with the vague instructions from racetech and then backed up my measurements with a call to Sean. Bottom line is if you cut the spacer too short you can start over and on the flop side, too long you can cut it down some more. The limits are no less than 5mm on the soft side and no more than 35mm on the hard, as far as preload. So I split the difference and like the way it handles now, but its only been a few rides since the weather is scetchy still for me. I like the spring tension, I like the ricor's so that's good. Now I need to play with the preload and oils weight to get fine tuned. Luckily as I said you can only cut so much and there are only three realistic oil weights to chose from. Im running 10wt now so its up or most likely down for me. To many variables of what each peson is looking for. If you even know what you want. At least this is for the most part documented for others to read and think about.

 

[Fire-medic]

I should have gotten the name of the product correct, it's "Intiminators," not Dale's (`ol #3) nickname.

Here is a review I thought had some real-world experience behind it, more than the typical H-D "my front shock (sic) is so-much better as I just put-on 200 mi. last month!"

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/equipment-reviews/ricor-intiminator-overlanders-best-mod-52521

and the actual post:
"Hi all, My name is George Guille I am just back in the UK after 13 months on my Africa Twin RD07A Riding from here in the Channel Islands down to Australia, almost exactly 30'000miles. About 6 or 7 months ago I contacted Don Richardson at RICOR with regards their new Intiminator fork valves for the Africa Twin and their rear shock that they are currently developing. As a result of that I happily agreed to fit my bike with their fork valves as a long term test. Don sent me two sets with different tunes, one soft and one firm as well as a set of shims so I could fine tune them for me.

One thing I have found on the Africa Twin which is only heighted when the bike is used as an overlander and loaded up with 50kg of gear, is that the front end will dive so much that it will totally upset the running of the bike when riding, particularly if you are starting to push it a bit, say in the Alps for example.

Before I left I tried to get around this by fitting progressive springs from White Power. They helped a lot but I was still not happy. Once in Switzerland I removed the White Power supplied preload spacers (15mm) and had a new set of alloy preload spacers made up this time 45mm. At last the bike would handle properly! Giving the GSXR's a run for their money up the grimzel pass fully loaded and a set of tyres on the back proved that.

Fast forward a couple of thousand km?s and now in Pakistan when the roads start to get a bit more bumpy, pot holes all over the place and the Karakorum highway is being dug up by the Chinese and in terrible condition. Here my front forks are now too stiff to soak up the impacts. I tell myself that this is just something I have to live with, a compromise for the improved road handling and watch my brother disappearing off into the distance on his KTM 640adv.

With everything agreed Don sent out the two different tunes to Bangkok in Thailand. Due to most of the roads in South East Asia being sealed I decided to fit the firmer tune Intiminators first. As you see from the instructions the installation of the fork valves really couldn?t be simpler. Remove the wheel with the bike on the main stand, drop out the forks from the triple clamps. Remove the cap on top of the forks and remove the springs and pour out the old fork oil. I flushed the forks a few times with a cleaner then refilled with 5W fork oil and reinstalled the springs and put it all back together easily all done in under an hour.
Excited to give them a test I took the bike straight out for a ride. To my amazement due to the way that they work my forks were FIRMER than with the progressive springs and 3x the normal preload spacers! Riding back into Bangkok I made an effort to hit any lip, bump or ruff surface. The result is a little odd at first...I could hardly feel them!
Down in Malaysia I took a couple days off roading still with my luggage and the front end was handling it just amazing, so much better than with my previous arrangement.
So as a result of installing the Intiminators I had an even firmer front end that was also much softer and able to soak up much larger impacts than before!

After 2 months with the firmer tune Intiminator in the bike when in Kuala Lumpur I fitted the softer tune Intiminator that Don had sent me. My next country was going to be Indonesia, worse roads and worse drivers...lots of emergency braking! I was also eager to leave the main sealed roads and explore some of the last jungle and wilderness in the world.
The softer tune was a big difference at first I didn?t like it, like it had been before without the Intiminators. However as soon as I stated to hit the rougher roads and pot holes I just couldn?t believe how much the front end was soaking up. It was starting to get silly when I began to purposely aim for the largest pot hole I could find just so I could watch how fast the forks react!
Riding along side the KTM640 was a great comparison, that bike has great suspension, what you would normally consider call far superior than the Africa Twin stock suspension. Now an odd things happened I started to leave the 640 behind! The rougher it got the better the inertia valves worked and the more I would leave the 640 behind.

In conclusion I am going to keep the Intiminator in the bike as I carry on around the world via South America, North America, Russia, East and West Africa until I get back to Europe.

If I had known of the RICOR Intiminators when doing the preparation of my bike, I would have without question spent my money on the Intiminator instead of the progressive springs. (The Intiminator are designed to and do work best with the stock springs)
Why try and sort out the front suspension by spending money on new fork springs and not really get it right, instead I fully recommend to spend the extra on a set of Intiminators, you will not regret it.

I rate the 3 best things I have done for my bike to be my custom made seat, big windscreen and the RICOR Intiminator fork valves.

I can't wait for their rear shock to become avliable as I will be next modification I do to the bike.

I hope this has been of help

George"

One thing I have seen repeated is that "Ricor Intiminators are designed to work with stock springs." I do not think I would follow that advice. Better springs alone can improve the front end especially if chosen for a specific rider weight and riding style. What is right for a 150 lb rider is not going to work for a 230 lb dressed rider.

A feature that I do find useful is claimed less front-end dive on braking. Though the Intiminators cost more, I am thinking from reading the reviews they may be worth it. I am aware that 'what is good for one may not be good for all,' especially given rider style of use. I would describe my use as 'mature enthusiastic with occasional flogging for transient periods.'

Maybe someday I can afford to do a side-by-side but I think my plan may be to try the Ohlins springset first with the eventual option of the Intiminators.

Is the 1" internal fork drop due to a shortening of the free spring length a corresponding amount, so the fork tube and slider just end up with that much extra overlap? If so, doesn't that reduce available fork travel by that corresponding amount? I have never used a fork height reduction product so I am in the need to know category. Right now I am more of a mind to keep the standard spring length, not the lowered spring set. I see where Pro. Susp. includes both the 1" & 2" lowering ability in their kit. From:
http://www.progressivesuspension.com/loweredforksprings/index.html

"Kit includes 1" lower and 2" lower components"

So you have an option to go with either one? Assuming a VMax stock has a nominal 6" of travel, then the use of the 2" lowering will cost you 1/3 of your available travel? For me, that is not a good trade-off, and I think the stock height sized to my weight is better. Four inches of travel is not-enough in my opinion for everyday use.

An alternative is Ohlins fork springs. From their site:

"For a full ride enhancement, ?hlins Fork Spring Kits are also available for a limited time at a greatly reduced price, and come with internal spacers for applications as needed. For the duration of this offer the Fork Kits are available for $100.00, discounted from an MSRP of $197.54."

http://www.ohlinsusa.com/us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=193:metric-cruiser-shock-sale&catid=1:latest-news

I am going to contact their customer service and see what they recommend. I will post their response.

OK, that's it for now. I appreciate people offering info. BTW, I am going to post what I found out after visiting my friend's shop where he was in the midst of a 1500 cc VMax engine. As soon as I get pics uploaded to a server site, I will post my very interesting conversation highlights.

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

I contacted Ricor via email to see if they would do another group buy from here. Anyone interested?

 

[[email protected]]

Is the 1" internal fork drop due to a shortening of the free spring length a corresponding amount, so the fork tube and slider just end up with that much extra overlap? If so, doesn't that reduce available fork travel by that corresponding amount? I have never used a fork height reduction product so I am in the need to know category. Right now I am more of a mind to keep the standard spring length, not the lowered spring set. I see where Pro. Susp. includes both the 1" & 2" lowering ability in their kit. From:
http://www.progressivesuspension.com/loweredforksprings/index.html

"Kit includes 1" lower and 2" lower components"

So you have an option to go with either one? Assuming a VMax stock has a nominal 6" of travel, then the use of the 2" lowering will cost you 1/3 of your available travel? For me, that is not a good trade-off, and I think the stock height sized to my weight is better. Four inches of travel is not-enough in my opinion for everyday use.

The length of the fork springs really has nothing to do with lowering the bike. Fork springs sit on top of the damper rods in these type of forks.

To lower the forks you have to remove the damper rod. Then, you can choose your lowering method. You can use a PVC or metal spacer, or you can buy the lowering springs from progressive. By installing the lowering springs or spacers it prevents the fork tube from fully retracting from the fork leg. It increaces stiffness due to the increase in overlap. It changes the feeling of the steering, many say it is a positive change (I agree).

The amount that you lower the fork is the amount of travel that you use. Using your own PVC or metal spacers, you can adjust that amount to whatever you desire. With the progressive kit, you can choose between 1 or 2" of drop. They provide 4 springs. Install 1 per damper rod to lower 1", install 2 per damper rod to lower 2"

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

Just got an email from Brian at Ricor. He told me that he will offer the intiminators for 30% off for forum members for the next week by entering "vmax" in the coupon code during purchase. Its not as good as the previous 50% off, but it still means you can pick a set up for about $200. Bob

 

[Fire-medic]

I may have to add that to my pile of "big schwag" (see my thread, "dealer closing" in the VBoost Room, and don't forget to try my contest in the thread). $200 is better, thanks for making the inquiry. Anyone want to weigh-in on whether or not the Ohlins springs on the "spring (sic) sale" for $100 would go better than the Pro. Susp. ones w/the Ricors?

 

[Redbone]

I may have to add that to my pile of "big schwag" (see my thread, "dealer closing" in the VBoost Room, and don't forget to try my contest in the thread). $200 is better, thanks for making the inquiry. Anyone want to weigh-in on whether or not the Ohlins springs on the "spring (sic) sale" for $100 would go better than the Pro. Susp. ones w/the Ricors?

I don't think the springs are going to affect the Ricors at all assuming that correct spring preload is set. To get the Ricors to work properly you'll need to play with the fork oil viscosity to tune for proper dampening for you/ your bike/ riding style.

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

I installed the intiminators with the progressive springs (that I already had). I finally got a chance to ride it tonight, and I gotta say that I am impressed with the stability of the front end now. It seems to feel much more stable in turns, and brake dive is completely gone! I will probably try it in some harder turns within the next few rides, I like to take it easy the first couple of rides of the year. I'm thinking the intiminators were def. worth buying! Edit: forgot to mention I'm using the 5wt Amsoil that Ricor suggests.

 

[Holeshot]

... Race tech straight rate spring for 210 lbs, intiminators and 1" drop with 10wt oil. The best so far! ....

Ok, help me out a little here. I thought that the Ricor school of thought was to use a light oil (5wt?) to defeat the stock valving at which point the Ricor puck takes over as it was designed to work with 5wt.

The Racetec stuff requires drilling out the stock valves to defeat them and still uses "stock viscosity" oils, but the Ricor setup uses lighter oil to defeat the stock valves. At least that is my understanding of the two. That said, doesn't using 10wt with the Ricor pucks just sorta defeat the purpose?

I'm an idiot (and this is easily confirmed). So if I've totally screwed this up it's no surprise.

One way to think of this stuff that makes it easier for me to wrap my head around it: Think of the hydraulic valving as the complete suspension system, and the spring as simply *the thing used to reset the front end* instead of an actual active component. This school of thought uses the valves as suspension rather than springs. The other school is that which the springs take a more active role in keeping the tires on the pave.

Lately most GP teams have been using the hydraulic bias on things rather than mechanical springs. This puts a heavier responsibility on the valving system. Some teams use springs to deal with dive, others use hydraulics. Either school must be approached differently. Most of them have gone to sortof long travel setups with like 2 inches of sag and dive/lift controlled via hydraulics. Look for this approach to find it's way into production bikes of many flavors soon.

In this thread I think I'm seeing some confusion (or lack of distinction is a better way of saying it) between the two approaches. One method works far better for adjusting for loads (bags, two-up, etc..), and the other works better for keeping the wheels on the street when they start hitting stutter bumps. Springs deal with frame movement moreso, and oil deals with wheel movement moreso.

One needs to determine which part of his bike is doing the sucking. The frame responses, the wheel responses .. or both. Each one requires a different fix.

Or have I got this all wrong? PaLEEZ tell if I do, I'd really like to have this right in my head!

:ummm:

 

[vmaxcruzer]

Yes, you have the understanding of the function of the aftermarket valves. I used a straight rate spring so that the valve will work more efficiently over the stock or progressive spring which for one, the stock is way too soft for my weight and two, the progressive is counter productive to the valves. In my case the ricor's. I chose a mid length pre-load (15mm) and 10wt oil to see how it felt, if I wanted a change I could at this point cut or take out some pre-load or go to a lighter 5wt oil. 5wt is just the suggestion, its thin so it blows through the valve easily one direction and slows the return of the spring the other, dampening it. I wanted a sport bike feel so I used 10wt.