POWER COMMANDER with AUTO TUNE

[Gregoryuw]

Hey guys , I'm just getting into fueling my Yamaha bikes for performance exhaust , WR250 , FZ1 and the Vmax .
The first bike I'm doing is the 2014 WR250r , I picked up a Graves full system for that bike , seems power commander has 2 different PC units one with Autotune and with out .
I have been reading a lot of posts about Autotune and seems like it was all hyped up but not performing as expected .
I'm use to just changing fuel maps and some fine tuning , for what I have read load your base map for what mods you have then the auto tune will adjust your fueling .
I have the full Yosh exhaust for my FZ1 , I'm going to have my ECU reflashed by IVANS and run his power commander map , he's has done most of the work .
As for my 2013 Vmax I plan on doing Akrapovic , I have the cross mid pipe from Akra but have not scraped up the dough for the cans yet .
I have read alot of bad about the Autotune on the Vmax .
Any insite into the whole power commander Autotune .
Thanks guys

 

[customizedcreationz]

I am thought about it for my zx14. But I am thinking 190 hp might be enough as is. It runs damns good now.

I read a lot and there is good info on it.

Todd

 

[Itgoes]

Hey guys , I'm just getting into fueling my Yamaha bikes for performance exhaust , WR250 , FZ1 and the Vmax .
The first bike I'm doing is the 2014 WR250r , I picked up a Graves full system for that bike , seems power commander has 2 different PC units one with Autotune and with out .
I have been reading a lot of posts about Autotune and seems like it was all hyped up but not performing as expected .
I'm use to just changing fuel maps and some fine tuning , for what I have read load your base map for what mods you have then the auto tune will adjust your fueling .
I have the full Yosh exhaust for my FZ1 , I'm going to have my ECU reflashed by IVANS and run his power commander map , he's has done most of the work .
As for my 2013 Vmax I plan on doing Akrapovic , I have the cross mid pipe from Akra but have not scraped up the dough for the cans yet .
I have read alot of bad about the Autotune on the Vmax .
Any insite into the whole power commander Autotune .
Thanks guys

Couple of things....you probably know this but the Akra is designed to work with the stock cans as well....they'll bolt right on (with just a slight trim of the left heat shield) and work great. My buddy was running 9.40`s with the Akra pipe through completely stock cans.

I was one of the first people to use the AutoTune module on a VMax. It was a tough learning curve. I eventually got some decent results out of it......but could not recommend it to anyone. It`s pretty much obsolete in my book when it comes to the VMax anyway, (PCV also) because you can have your ECU flashed by Gurued Gear and be much happier. The re-flash addresses every quirk in the fueling, and provides a perfect tune. That is the way to go.

 

[you2low]

Couple of things....you probably know this but the Akra is designed to work with the stock cans as well....they'll bolt right on (with just a slight trim of the left heat shield) and work great. My buddy was running 9.40`s with the Akra pipe through completely stock cans.

I was one of the first people to use the AutoTune module on a VMax. It was a tough learning curve. I eventually got some decent results out of it......but could not recommend it to anyone. It`s pretty much obsolete in my book when it comes to the VMax anyway, (PCV also) because you can have your ECU flashed by Gurued Gear and be much happier. The re-flash addresses every quirk in the fueling, and provides a perfect tune. That is the way to go.

I agree %100 on the Gurued Gear Flash Tim is the man for the flash just had mine done all I can say WOW:worthy::worthy:

 

[customizedcreationz]

There is big plus and minus to using one or the other or both together.

The best thing to do is check with your tuner and see what he uses.

ECU's rarely go bad, PC's have been known to lose maps or die. If you just want a few more horsepower or eliminate factory restrictions, then tune the ECU. You can buy a ECU editor and do it yourself as well, you need a logger and a wideband setup. This will depend on how much you want to do yourself and how fine tuned you want it.

Having someone else flash your ECU is a band-aid type fix. Not in a bad way necessarily. But its a compromise unless you have it specifically tuned for your absolute conditions.

That is the nice things about the auto tune.

Since the ability to flash a ECU is so simple now and the ECU's are bigger and better than before ( before you had small ECU memory and they couldnt do much, now they are big and can control a third world country) they are becoming a more preferred method.

The ECU controls everything. The PC will only control fuel, unless you buy the ignition module or teh top of the line PC. And then you can add things like shifters and delays etc. You couldnt do that with an ECU years ago. But now you can.

So honestly an ECU flash by someone else is probably good enough for most basic people. Buying an ECU editor and doing it yourself will get you the best possible tune for your specific application.

The things the ECU flash from joe blow will get you the basics of removing limiters, timing retards in the first 3 gears ( is common in most bikes not sure on Gen 2 Vmax ) and maybe a few other small things. They may possibly also change fuel and timing curves for specific modifications as well if you tell them.

ECU flashing is also relatively cheap to have someone else do it. Ryan Schnitz does most bikes ( not sure ), Check out this link, or call him..... http://store.schnitzracing.com/schnitz-ecu-reflash-kawasaki-zx14-06-11/. He may have Vmax setups. And best of all it is only $75. But they don't as far as I know tune anything for specific setups ( like exhaust systems or race filters etc ).

Here is a link to another decent thread with some links.

http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/gen-ii-busa-information/164274-flashing-vs-pcv-2.html

Todd

 

[Itgoes]

I can promise you what you'll get from Gurued Gear will be leaps above what anyone else can supply when it comes to a VMax. It is not a "bandaid", that's a ridicolous statement. Hundreds of hours have been spent on a state of the art dyno to develop those tunes, and there are specific tunes for almost every pipe out there as well as a tune for a bone stock bike.

It makes little difference where you live because the ECU already automatically adjusts for ambient conditions. What is important is to get the fueling and throttle body openings correct and that takes time to do. In addition individual cylinder mapping is important with this engine and all that has been done as well.

The decision was easy for me.......a replacement engine is $10,000. I only wanted someone I knew had put the time in specifically with VMax's poking around in my ECU.

You can ask the many satisfied owners over on the StarVmax site. They are all happy with their re-flashes.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I think the only negative about a reflash is that you are not the one with the tuner and software in your hands. (That might also be a positive in some peoples cases)

A reflash is only as good as their research tho, but I think Gurued has it nailed from what I hear.

There is nothing an aftermarket ECU will do the factory can't, probably a lot less. It's a matter of being able to program it.

Any piggy back type device that is used to augment (READ TRICK) the factory ECU is a BIG band aid,
Typically should only be used if the factory ECU cannot be cracked.

Replacing a factory ECU with an aftermarket ECU is only a good idea if you feel like you MUST have that software and ability to tune it yourself.
That being said and aftermarket ECU without a full set of maps and support for YOUR particular application is next to worthless unless your a tuning genius.

Does any one actually sell tuning software for the factory ECU?

 

[customizedcreationz]

Any piggy back type device that is used to augment (read trick) the factory ECU is a BIG band aid,
Typically should only be used if the factory ECU cannot be cracked.

Replacing a factory ECU with an aftermarket ECU is only a good idea if you feel like you MUST have that software and ability to tune it yourself.
That being said and aftermarket ECU without a full set of maps and support for YOUR particular application is next to worthless unless your a tuning genius.

Rusty,
I disagree with the piggy back statement. The stock ECU has NO where near the fine tuning ability that a PC has. Now I am not a Gen 2 guru, so maybe it has infinite adjustability. But I know that the Gen 2 Busa and ZX14 don't have the ability to adjust as much as you can with a PC ( whether for more people its needed or not ).
But honestly, 99% of the street ridden bikes don't need this fine tuning ability. I think the ECU flash is good for 99% of everyone. Its just not super fine tuning ability in all areas, and that is my understanding. I am not a ECU guru, but going off of what I have gathered via talking to big names in the industry about tuning my bike etc.

Todd

 

[Itgoes]

I think the only negative about a reflash is that you are not the one with the tuner and software in your hands. (That might also be a positive in some peoples cases)

A reflash is only as good as their research tho, but I think Gurued has it nailed from what I hear.

There is nothing an aftermarket ECU will do the factory can't, probably a lot less. It's a matter of being able to program it.

Any piggy back type device that is used to augment (READ TRICK) the factory ECU is a BIG band aid,
Typically should only be used if the factory ECU cannot be cracked.

Replacing a factory ECU with an aftermarket ECU is only a good idea if you feel like you MUST have that software and ability to tune it yourself.
That being said and aftermarket ECU without a full set of maps and support for YOUR particular application is next to worthless unless your a tuning genius.

Does any one actually sell tuning software for the factory ECU?

Yes reprogramming the factory ECU is far superior to adding a Power Commander for instance Randy.

I have software myself that allows complete access to the ECU. The code in an ECU is extremely complex as you can imagine. To get down to fine tuning fuel and timing at an individual cylinder level is not for amateurs....not something I would attempt.

The thing is reflashing Busa's and the like has been done probably tens of thousands of times, where as always with the VMax it is a much smaller market. Gurued Gear is the only company that has made a big effort so far.

 

[you2low]

Rusty,
I disagree with the piggy back statement. The stock ECU has NO where near the fine tuning ability that a PC has. Now I am not a Gen 2 guru, so maybe it has infinite adjustability. But I know that the Gen 2 Busa and ZX14 don't have the ability to adjust as much as you can with a PC ( whether for more people its needed or not ).
But honestly, 99% of the street ridden bikes don't need this fine tuning ability. I think the ECU flash is good for 99% of everyone. Its just not super fine tuning ability in all areas, and that is my understanding. I am not a ECU guru, but going off of what I have gathered via talking to big names in the industry about tuning my bike etc.

Todd[/QUOTE

Right This Is Gen2 Vmax Not A Busa Or A Zx14 And The Stock Ecu Can Be Programmed To Do Way More Than A PC 5 Can If You Know What Your Doing And Have A Dyno To Work With And The Software To Flash The Ecu.Engine Braking,Fueling,Timing,All TheRestrictions That Limit The Vmax ..

 

[you2low]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEuyK6t5P90&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Itgoes]

Rusty,
I disagree with the piggy back statement. The stock ECU has NO where near the fine tuning ability that a PC has. Now I am not a Gen 2 guru, so maybe it has infinite adjustability. But I know that the Gen 2 Busa and ZX14 don't have the ability to adjust as much as you can with a PC ( whether for more people its needed or not ).
But honestly, 99% of the street ridden bikes don't need this fine tuning ability. I think the ECU flash is good for 99% of everyone. Its just not super fine tuning ability in all areas, and that is my understanding. I am not a ECU guru, but going off of what I have gathered via talking to big names in the industry about tuning my bike etc.


Todd

That's completely wrong Todd. A Power Commander is an extremely rudimentary device when compared to what can be done in the factory ECU. I mean the ECU controls everything in the engine. With the right software there is nothing that cannot be changed.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I made my statements in a general way regarding;
Reflash
Piggy back
Or owning your own user friendly software for stock ECU

In a general way as it relates to my experience with cars, not bikes.

I have no idea about the G2 Vmax specifically.

When I say tuning software for stock ECU I'm talking about full blown "somewhat" user friendly package like "LS EDIT" that will let you make infinite adjustments with super small increments to all areas of the ECU. But is packaged so that you don't have to know or understand the code involved, you just grab parts of the curve and move them around, or type in a value that makes sense to you like a/f ratio, speed, rpm etc, and the software writes the code for you.
It's the kind of package most auto tuner shops use and is fairly expensive and mfgr specific. You don't really need to be a genius to use it if you have a wide band and a dyno, or even just a wide band if your trust your seat of the pants.

I agree a reflash is only as good as their research for multiple combinations of modifications and what works for those specific setups.

Tuning software for the ECU itself would really be best as long as it has, like a reflash, some research to help you get started with it for your combo, and it's packaged in a way that a normal human being can use.
Having tuning software with no place to start and no packaging/format that doesn't require knowing computer code I think is throwing most guys to the wolves. Like having to know DOS commands versus being "led" in the right direction by the software itself.

I'm not bagging on piggy backs either really as long as they're good.

I've done the piggy back thing, it was the only thing you could do on the 350Z when they came out cause no one had cracked the code. It worked fine but IT felt like a band aid in that it was intercepting ECU inputs and changing them to fool the ECU into doing what you wished it would do itself. This was for a car I put a supercharger on. Had to overdrive the injectors by tricking the ECU and
intercept timing signals thru a delay box to add retard under full boost.

 

[customizedcreationz]

Rusty,
I disagree with the piggy back statement. The stock ECU has NO where near the fine tuning ability that a PC has. Now I am not a Gen 2 guru, so maybe it has infinite adjustability. But I know that the Gen 2 Busa and ZX14 don't have the ability to adjust as much as you can with a PC ( whether for more people its needed or not ).
But honestly, 99% of the street ridden bikes don't need this fine tuning ability. I think the ECU flash is good for 99% of everyone. Its just not super fine tuning ability in all areas, and that is my understanding. I am not a ECU guru, but going off of what I have gathered via talking to big names in the industry about tuning my bike etc.

Todd[/QUOTE

Right This Is Gen2 Vmax Not A Busa Or A Zx14 And The Stock Ecu Can Be Programmed To Do Way More Than A PC 5 Can If You Know What Your Doing And Have A Dyno To Work With And The Software To Flash The Ecu.Engine Braking,Fueling,Timing,All TheRestrictions That Limit The Vmax ..

I guess I should rephrase my statement, it has FAR better fuel tuning ability than a stock ECU, from my understanding. And again, I am not sure about a Gen 2 Vmax ECU fuel tuning ability compared to a PC. But its my understanding that the PC has more tuneability in the fuel department , which is all it was designed for unless you get the other modules.

The same holds true for the ECU on the ZX or Busa or most other bikes, you can remove the restrictions and limits etc , and you CAN'T do that with a PC on those bikes either, you have to do with the ECU or add ons like the TRE's and things of that nature, but having 50 piggy back items I agree is NOT the way to go.

I think ECU's are FAR better made quality than most piggy back items. It is not often you hear of an ECU going bad, compared to a PC.

Todd

 

[Itgoes]

Yeah, I went through that with my truck as well. The engine was new and the first tuners were "piggy back" types like the Bully Dog .....I think it's called.

The first thing that has to happen like you said is to crack the code. Not only the encryption, but then figuring out where and what every input and output is and does. Only after that can a more user friendly interface be designed. The advanntage to reflash that Gurued Gear provides is that they are tuning the same way the factory does. They are not limited to any predetermined parameters/limits.

There is a package available now for the VMax if you to tune yourself. It's just as expensive as having a proper reflash done. Unless someone was adding a blower or turbo, I not sure why someone would want to go that route. Gurued Gear has reflashes for pretty much every pipe and intake combination currently available.

 

[customizedcreationz]

Thats the one thing that concerns me with twin turboing my Dakota. No one has any info on setting it up and guys that have done single turbo's I see have problems. So it is nice to have someone that has almost all the settings that you may only have to fine tune it, given a good base to start with.

Todd

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Thats the one thing that concerns me with twin turboing my Dakota. No one has any info on setting it up and guys that have done single turbo's I see have problems. So it is nice to have someone that has almost all the settings that you may only have to fine tune it, given a good base to start with.



Todd

I was in the same boat with the 350Z

Went with an Aeromotive rpm and boost sensitive box that drives an aux fuel pump essentially overdriving the fuel pressure rail. Have to have a wideband, logger and days "of try it and see" to develop settings.

Crude but effective.

Stillen had a system where you added one big centrally located injector (like in the intake duct somewhere before the main plenum, right after the throttle body) dedicated fuel pump, regulator and
controller that just drove that one injector according to rpm and boost and they were good for "non-crack able" ECU apps. as well, maybe even better than overdriving the whole fuel rail.

The timing retard was done with a J&S SAFEGUARD. You can dial in a certain amount (or none) of retard per RPM, and also a certain amount of retard per PSI of boost..
It's a dumb box in that it merely
Intercepts the gate signals to the COP units and delays them appropriately so it doesn't
need to know firing
order etc.

It was essential to not burning up the motor and it does what it says it does accurately and reliably.

Plus the guy who builds them is like Sean in the Customer service and advice department.

 

[2stangs69-91]

Nice debate. I only have experience with one of the above and that is the Ivans flash and PCV for the Gen 2 FZ1 and it wakes the bike up and makes it a beast. The reason for the Power commander and the flash is it gives the owner the ability to fine tune the fuel curve to there liking esp if you change something . The advantage being not having to send in the ECU or scheduling a appointment for a reflash. That being said I have never touched mine since the flash.

 

[Itgoes]

Nice debate. I only have experience with one of the above and that is the Ivans flash and PCV for the Gen 2 FZ1 and it wakes the bike up and makes it a beast. The reason for the Power commander and the flash is it gives the owner the ability to fine tune the fuel curve to there liking esp if you change something . The advantage being not having to send in the ECU or scheduling a appointment for a reflash. That being said I have never touched mine since the flash.

Yes, my PCV is still on the bike but has a "0" map in it. I do use it for my Quickshifter though, that's a sweet feature.

 

[customizedcreationz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WYjZrpa-ZU

Here is the Woolich Racing ECU editor. Allows you to fine tune your ECU instead of having someone else do it. For the price, for those that want to tinker its an awesome deal around $500. But you have to have cables for the ECU, and I am not sure if they have Yamaha Cables unless they are Denso or Mitsubishi ECU's. Suzy's are Denso and the Zeds are Mits.

Todd