Starting Issue

[Hooligans]

Over the past 3 years I rebuilt my 89 Vmax top to bottom, after everything was bolted on/plugged back in, I went to start the bike and ran into a problem.

All lights come on, fuel pump runs, but when I press the starter button nothing happens. The headlight turns off (signals and tail stay on) and the low fuel and oil lights come on but the engine does not crank.

This issue happened last year, since then I have replaced almost every electrical component with new (brand new oem in yamaha plastic baggies) components. I also got another wiring harness, that didn't work, so I unwrapped my wiring harness and upgraded any wire that had to do with the starting system (blue white wire in the harness) and soldered every crimp connection in the harness (there are at least 50 or 60 of them) and added 3 or 4 more grounding points throughout the harness.

I just got a new ecu and plugged that in, but am still experiencing the same problem. The only electrical components that haven't been replaced are the stator and regulator rectifier, both of which were replaced with quality oem parts before the tear down.

I am at my wits end and basically ready to give up, but I have now put so much money and time into this thing I have to see it through.

Any ideas what component in the system could be the culprit?

The issue seems to be that I am not getting 12v at the starter relay from the blue white wire, as far as I can tell everything else is working properly. Jumping the relay works.

Thanks for any suggestions. Again, when I say I replaced every part with brand new OEM parts, I mean I bought brand new parts from Yamaha.

 

[scuff]

Well here it goes i'll throw my 2 cent's in don't know if it will help, but I chased a similar problem when I first got my max it ended up being in the plug where the right hand electrical controls plug into the wiring harness on the right side behind the scoop, there was a bad pin in the connector, like I said doesn't sound like you have left any stone unturned here but just letting you know what happened to me. good luck hope it helps

 

[Hooligans]

I guess my question really is;

If the issue occurs when I press the starter button, then logically it has to be something between the button and the starter relay. If I have changed everything with known good parts between the starter button and the starter relay, then what else could be causing this?

Parts that have been replaced:
Starter button assembly
Ignition switch
Starter circuit cut-off relay
the Diode Block located behind the steering neck
Sidestand switch
Sidestand Relay
nuetral switch
starter relay
ECU
clutch switch
all wiring harness connectors were cleaned or replaced


Parts that haven't been replaced:
Ignition advance unit
Stator
Regulator Rectifier
Ignition coils
Fuel Pump
Fuel level sensor

Note; the bike worked just fine before the tear down with the parts it had.

 

[scuff]

yep sounds like you replaced a lot of parts all I can tell you is my bike did exactly what your describing and I bought a brand new start button/kill switch right hand control and it did the same thing but in the plug for the wiring harness there was a loose pin that made connection only sometimes my remedy was to zip tie it together tight and I haven't had a problem since, check that plug on both ends or hold down the starter button and wiggle that sucker around maybe you have a loose/bad pin in your plug ??? just sayin

 

[Miles Long]

Reading your first post, It seems like the wiring harness in use at present is an '89 vintage. Correct?
The '85-'92 harnesses did not incorporate a Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay.
Your most recent post says you have replaced the SCCR. What gives:ummm:
What, if any, voltage do you measure at the blue/white wire when the starter button is activated?
Cheers!

 

[Hooligans]

Miles, what's left of the stock wiring harness is original to the motor which is 89, I replaced part 41r-83350-71-00 officially called the "flasher relay assembly" but it seems that relay also controls the starter circuit cut off system.

As far as I can tell it looks like the neutral switch/side stand switch etc... all go to the diode block, then to the 41R relay. The blue white wire goes from the starter button, splits and runs into the 41R relay and the diode block. The diode block and 41R relay are connected in various places and then the blue white wire comes out of the 41R relay and goes to the starter relay. I am getting 12v everywhere along the blue/white wire connections except at the starter relay, which is why I assumed it was the 41R relay as that is the last point for the blue white wire to the starter relay. But I replaced it and its still not working.

I was out in the garage trying what scuff suggested and I made a new discovery, if I hold down the starter button and then jump the starter relay with a screwdriver and quickly take the screw driver away, the bike will continue to crank as long as I hold down the starter button.

Maybe I should delete all the starter circuit fail safes (nuetral switch, clutch switch, sidestand switch etc....) I just am not sure if any of the other components (stator, coils, ignition advance unit) being bad could cause this.

 

[Hooligans]

Does anyone know any Vmax electrical experts within a couple hours of DC, I am ready to give up and take it to a pro.

 

[davesax36]

Sounds like we should do a tech day at your place.
Have you borrowed a test kit from Sean?

 

[Hooligans]

I haven't asked for help besides posts. I am past pride on this one, I just want the bike to run.

I bought a running 85 vmax and switched out the components from that bike one by one - still couldn't find the issue. (at least I got a vmax to ride till I get this one going)

So if there is anyone on the east coast that is sure they can fix it, I am willing to drive there and pay what it's worth to get this thing going.

 

[davesax36]

Where are you in VA? I've been through a lot of crap on my two bikes, and I'm certainly ready to help in any way I can.

 

[Hooligans]

Oakton

 

[wayne z]

:~)

 

[davesax36]

That's nothing. We can work a couple nights this week if you want.

 

[Miles Long]

Miles, what's left of the stock wiring harness is original to the motor which is 89, I replaced part 41r-83350-71-00 officially called the "flasher relay assembly" but it seems that relay also controls the starter circuit cut off system.

As far as I can tell it looks like the neutral switch/side stand switch etc... all go to the diode block, then to the 41R relay. The blue white wire goes from the starter button, splits and runs into the 41R relay and the diode block. The diode block and 41R relay are connected in various places and then the blue white wire comes out of the 41R relay and goes to the starter relay. I am getting 12v everywhere along the blue/white wire connections except at the starter relay, which is why I assumed it was the 41R relay as that is the last point for the blue white wire to the starter relay. But I replaced it and its still not working.

I was out in the garage trying what scuff suggested and I made a new discovery, if I hold down the starter button and then jump the starter relay with a screwdriver and quickly take the screw driver away, the bike will continue to crank as long as I hold down the starter button.

Maybe I should delete all the starter circuit fail safes (nuetral switch, clutch switch, sidestand switch etc....) I just am not sure if any of the other components (stator, coils, ignition advance unit) being bad could cause this.

As per the Clymer manual....
"On 1985-1992 models, the starting circuit cutoff relay is part of the relay unit. "
Yes, this relay unit is the 9-pin one you have replaced, which also does duties as a relay for the flashers and the horn, as well as the starting circuit.
Deleting all the fail safes (one at a time) would be a terrific fault-finding exercise, easily done. It does appear that your problem is in the operation of the 41R relay, even though you have replaced it.
Have you got the Clymer manual? Starting on page 299, very detailed instructions are given for testing the relay, including resistance and continuity testing. If you don't have it, I will take some pics of the manual pages and post them.

Have you tried bypassing the 41R, by powering up the Starter Relay directly from the starter button? If the bike fires up, this would narrow down the source of the problem. I'd try this first.

Very cool of DaveSax to offer the personalized service. Just one example of why this forum is sooooo groovy!
Keep the faith, probably a very simple solution to your bike troubles. Cheers!

 

[eggohead]

Just a idea, as for I have had my kill switch stick a couple of times. It's right above the start button.. contacts could be stuck shut... I cleaned mine and stopped using it, it freaked me out... I had to toogle it back and forth a couple of time time.. Older electronics are tempermental.. I know my ignition needs played with at times also...

 

[Hooligans]

Miles, I bypassed the starter circuit cutoff system by connecting a wire from the blue/white pin on the starter button directly to the starter relay blue/white pin....still the same. Gonna try deleting the fail safes next.

It's odd that holding the starter button down and jumping the relay causes it to work even after removing the screwdriver, that makes me think it's got to be one of the fail safes.

Can anyone confirm that the oil and fuel lights come on/headlight turns off when pressing the starter button? It's been so long since the bike ran I have forgotten. The 85 I got seems to do so but it starts up so quickly it's hard to tell.

 

[jagco1]

Not sure if this will help but 2 years ago I was out of town stop off to eat. When I went to hit the start switch nothing happy. I miss with the kick stand switch and the bike started right up. I replace it with a new 1 just to be safe.

 

[scuff]

ok just went outside, turn the key headlight comes on neutral light comes on, push the button headlight goes off neutral light stays on and fuel and oil lights come on, when starts headlight on neutral light on everything else off

 

[Miles Long]

That's odd about the starter relay working off the button AFTER jumping with a screwdriver - couuld it be the windings of the relay not quite up to snuff?
How about trying the relay from your '85?
And do you have full battery voltage on the downstream side of the starter button?
I thought cheating around the 9 pin relay would also be bypassing all the failsafes - I reckon I was wrong on that one!

 

[Hooligans]

Can the oil switch trip the starter circuit cutoff?

If the starter relay were faulty wouldn't it not work at all?

I guess after jumping the relay and holding the starter button I am completing the circuit?