The dreaded oil O-ring busted!!!

[firefly]

I've never opened up the pan myself but took the bike to the dealer in the past and made him check it and replace all o-rings of the oil pick up line due to all what is going around about it popping out, to me it is peace of mind. that said.

I had a cheap air pump that came with an exercises ball those big colored balls, any way that pump looks so flimsy but yet very effective and holds the pressure amazingly so just out of curiosity I took it apart to see how it is designed, to my surprise the piston looks exactly like the oil pipe that holds the o-ring, it also has an over sized rubber ring that is fitting very very loosely and moves sideways and up / down? How can this hold any pressure ??? I asked myself, it goes against everything I know about making the pumps piston air tight.
And that is exactly what is amazing, such a flimsy design but yet very effective for the function that it should do, 1- permits up/down movement 2- creates a tight pressure seal sufficient to stop oil flow downward.
If you guys see that pump you will never think it can be air tight at all but it is!
I'll try to take photos of it later and post them in this post,I am amazed!!!

This is NOT to say the o-ring doesn't pop out in a small number of vmaxs especially if an unexperienced person opened the pan for any reason and put it back overlooking something in the process.

The stock configuration works well if not tampered with.
________
hot box vaporizers

 

[one2dmax]

Well, your observations are nice but don't match what I have observed (and I would bet I have had a couple more of them apart then you have).

Not to be nasty about it but sometimes when you make statements about certain things ("The dreaded oil o-ring busted") then some of the more inexperienced may be lead into believing you have more expereince then you do.

It's not the popping out that is the problem but in fact the popping back into place. The o-ring gets hung up when it is forced out and doesn't go back in. A slightly smaller o-ring may actually help alievate this but I have seen the various sizes get caught up and stuck. It usually even cuts the o-ring at that point which I don't think is bad enough to be a problem with just that but with it not in place properly the ring can't do it's job.

The stock setup sucks ass in my opinion!!!!!!!!! (which I hope has more credibility due to experience). For many that simply ride the bikes like normal sane people the o-ring being displaced and subsequent loss of oil pressure will not be a problem. However, for the more aggressive rider that pushes the bikes limits or runs in the higer rpms where the engine needs more oil pressure to insulate the bearings and other moving parts the system will simply not perform like it needs to.

I just aquired a setup which will be great to offer folks and that is a steel gear for the oil pump drive and it is even got a different tooth count to overdrive the pump. This allows the pump to create greater pressure and thus more protection.

Sean Morley

 

[firefly]

Sean, I am by no means an expert, you definitely work on maxs and know much much more than I do, as for the steel pump gear that is great news but I wonder why Yamaha chose to make it plastic in the first place?
do they know something you don't know?
Yes most of us ride like sane people with a few mins of insanity so we don't really have to worry about that o-ring.
The set up yamaha used is for a reason , yes it is flimsy but does the job if not tampered with, if you see that pump and the way the o-ring seals air tight, you wouldn't believe it, putting a more snug o-ring will actually cause it to pop out easier, I'll send you the pump to see for yourself.
the o-ring acts as the rings on a piston against the cylinder as it is subjected to up and down movement and is required to maintain seal.
Some of us still think yamaha knows how to build bikes and trust them and buy bikes from them like the max 20 years after they introduced it and pay $11000 for it but every disign has its week points.

Well, your observations are nice but don't match what I have observed (and I would bet I have had a couple more of them apart then you have).

Not to be nasty about it but sometimes when you make statements about certain things ("The dreaded oil o-ring busted") then some of the more inexperienced may be lead into believing you have more expereince then you do.

It's not the popping out that is the problem but in fact the popping back into place. The o-ring gets hung up when it is forced out and doesn't go back in. A slightly smaller o-ring may actually help alievate this but I have seen the various sizes get caught up and stuck. It usually even cuts the o-ring at that point which I don't think is bad enough to be a problem with just that but with it not in place properly the ring can't do it's job.

The stock setup sucks ass in my opinion!!!!!!!!! (which I hope has more credibility due to experience). For many that simply ride the bikes like normal sane people the o-ring being displaced and subsequent loss of oil pressure will not be a problem. However, for the more aggressive rider that pushes the bikes limits or runs in the higer rpms where the engine needs more oil pressure to insulate the bearings and other moving parts the system will simply not perform like it needs to.

I just aquired a setup which will be great to offer folks and that is a steel gear for the oil pump drive and it is even got a different tooth count to overdrive the pump. This allows the pump to create greater pressure and thus more protection.

Sean Morley

________
Subaru Sumo

 

[Buster Hymen]

Well, your observations are nice but don't match what I have observed (and I would bet I have had a couple more of them apart then you have).

Not to be nasty about it but sometimes when you make statements about certain things ("The dreaded oil o-ring busted") then some of the more inexperienced may be lead into believing you have more expereince then you do.

It's not the popping out that is the problem but in fact the popping back into place. The o-ring gets hung up when it is forced out and doesn't go back in. A slightly smaller o-ring may actually help alievate this but I have seen the various sizes get caught up and stuck. It usually even cuts the o-ring at that point which I don't think is bad enough to be a problem with just that but with it not in place properly the ring can't do it's job.

The stock setup sucks ass in my opinion!!!!!!!!! (which I hope has more credibility due to experience). For many that simply ride the bikes like normal sane people the o-ring being displaced and subsequent loss of oil pressure will not be a problem. However, for the more aggressive rider that pushes the bikes limits or runs in the higer rpms where the engine needs more oil pressure to insulate the bearings and other moving parts the system will simply not perform like it needs to.

I just aquired a setup which will be great to offer folks and that is a steel gear for the oil pump drive and it is even got a different tooth count to overdrive the pump. This allows the pump to create greater pressure and thus more protection.

Sean Morley

Sean, let us know when you have more information on this new set up as I'm sure there is a lot of people interested in it.

 

[firefly]

This is what an experienced vmax owner found, keep reading all the way to the end.
He basically said stay with the stock setting and don't tinker with modifying it. and I will add if you really don't know how the mechanism works HOW can you modify it?
How does this oil O-ring work? do you understand the principle??? or is it just make it tight approach? can you explain how it works in plan English?
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/z/vmaxoilring.htm

That metal oil pump gear is a BAD idea! and will cause severe engine damage if / when it fails, the plastic one will not cause severe damage if it looses a tooth or two.
also creating more oil pressure will put more load on the oil delivery system o-ringS , not tested enough will sure cause more problems.
this is a bad idea that needs some volunteers to test it and prove it will cause severe damage to the motor.

Making it metal instead of plastic and messing with a factory design without sufficient knowledge, how about metal shavings caused by the metal gear, what kind of metal are you using? did you have a motor run with this set up for 100k? the idea sounds nice but is poooorly studied and not sufficiently tested. I am glad NO one messes with my bike other than a competent Yamaha dealer mechanic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
who will volunteer ?

Sean, I strongly disagree with your idea and your solution to fix the o-ring myth problem.
but hey everyone decide for themselves, If I had bought an 88 salvaged bike for $1800 I might try some of the ideas floating around.
________
herbal vaporizers

 

[Rusty McNeil]

"but I wonder why Yamaha chose to make it plastic in the first place?
do they know something you don't know?
"

You mean like those plastic/nylon timing gears on all the small block chevies back in the 70's and early 80's that only lasted 50,000 miles????

I DO trust Yamaha to build a good product but there is no manufacturer on this earth that does not make certain cost cutting decisions at the expense of reliabilty...
Take the O-ring for example.....No vehicle I have ever worked on had such a suspicious looking arrangement.....In every case I have seen involving oil pickups or oil pipeing there were machined surfaces bolted together with or without a gasket or o-ring as a backup up.......

Just my opinion......

 

[Buster Hymen]

This is what an experienced vmax owner found, keep reading all the way to the end.
He basically said stay with the stock setting and don't tinker with modifying it. and I will add if you really don't know how the mechanism works HOW can you modify it?
How does this oil O-ring work? do you understand the principle??? or is it just make it tight approach? can you explain how it works in plan English?
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/z/vmaxoilring.htm

That metal oil pump gear is a BAD idea! and will cause severe engine damage if / when it fails, the plastic one will not cause severe damage if it looses a tooth or two.
also creating more oil pressure will put more load on the oil delivery system o-ringS , not tested enough will sure cause more problems.
this is a bad idea that needs some volunteers to test it and prove it will cause severe damage to the motor.

Making it metal instead of plastic and messing with a factory design without sufficient knowledge, how about metal shavings caused by the metal gear, what kind of metal are you using? did you have a motor run with this set up for 100k? the idea sounds nice but is poooorly studied and not sufficiently tested. I am glad NO one messes with my bike other than a competent Yamaha dealer mechanic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
who will volunteer ?

Sean, I strongly disagree with your idea and your solution to fix the o-ring myth problem.
but hey everyone decide for themselves, If I had bought an 88 salvaged bike for $1800 I might try some of the ideas floating around.

I don't know why you think a metal gear is a bad idea over a plastic one. All your transmission gears are metal, as well as all parts that are under pressure or are stressed. Can you imagine a plastic connecting rod? The oil pump gear is plastic because it is cheaper. This was a design of a bean counter not an engineer. Anything that they can get away with, with the cheapest part, all vehicle makers will do it. Why do they use timing belts on most car engines instead on timing chains or timing gears? Belts are cheaper (and quieter) and don't have to be in an oil bath (1 less gasket). I wouldn't trust a timing belt past 60k miles but I have a Mazda motor with over 190k miles on the original timing chain. Give me a metal gear over plastic any day.

 

[firefly]

I don't think its that simple, they have a good reason making it plastic, what? I don't know, after 20+ years of production if they felt this is a problem they would have made it metal, I wouldn't even think of putting it in my bike!!!
the o-ring was modified by yamaha so they know that it occasionally bubbles up.
after seeing this air pump and how it seals air very well I now understand that NO one in the vmax community really knows how it is meant to work and just come up with fixes that are correcting a wrong issue like making it tighter, using a bigger o-ring, using an oval o-ring or using a CIRCLIP kind of thing all these attempts prove they don't understand how it works in the first place.
If you see that pump mechanism you will understand exactly what I mean!!! I even don't mind sending it to you in Canada just prove my point but I'll need you to send it back.
Yamaha actually fixed the problem by using a thinner O-ring which goes against every one that says it should be made snug.
The same plastic gear is also in the venture bikes that go 200K with no problem.
The obvious is not necessarily the correct solution.
as for timing belts vs chains they tell you to replace it at given intervals as sceduled maintanace, what good is a metal timing chain if it lasts forever and becomes perminantly streched and don't break? you end up with incorect timing which degrades performance? durable but not exact and has a lot of play!

I don't know why you think a metal gear is a bad idea over a plastic one. All your transmission gears are metal, as well as all parts that are under pressure or are stressed. Can you imagine a plastic connecting rod? The oil pump gear is plastic because it is cheaper. This was a design of a bean counter not an engineer. Anything that they can get away with, with the cheapest part, all vehicle makers will do it. Why do they use timing belts on most car engines instead on timing chains or timing gears? Belts are cheaper (and quieter) and don't have to be in an oil bath (1 less gasket). I wouldn't trust a timing belt past 60k miles but I have a Mazda motor with over 190k miles on the original timing chain. Give me a metal gear over plastic any day.

________
penny stocks to watch

 

[one2dmax]

OK, the reason for the steel gear is to make it overdrive the pump. This allows for more oil pressure for the higher rpm oiling. You also have to shim the pump up from the block .125" to get the correct mating of the gears back. With this setup and a few other tips when the engine is out will allow full throttle runs at rpm's of up to 11,200 compared to stock and oil pressures of 100psi.

This knowledge was recently gained by me in a bulk lot I purchased from a man in Las Vegas over the weekend. He spent over $250,000 during the 5 years he raced these engines in mini-sprint cars. I aquired a lot of one off and custom parts from him as well as the stuff they learned over the years trying to make the engines live in that environment. They basically run 25 laps at full throttle with 11,200 rpm as their limit. You would not even believe the amount of testing and custom stuff they made. I have numerous flywheels that were modified. Side draft carbs, down draft carbs, custom ignitions, custom exhausts, you name it they tried it. Many of the items won't work in a street bike chassis but will work in a drag bike chassis. Of course the internal tricks they learned to make the bottom end survive will work in any of our bikes.

Essentually they were dynoing these engines at 160rwhp and still keeping the stock 1200cc bore!!!!

I've got chain drive conversions that don't require maching the cases, jaguar ignition systems, dyna 2000 from Suzukis made to fit, block guirdles to beef up the lower end from flexing, hell - I don't even know what all I have!!!

I'm going to have a very limited supply of the metal oil pump drive gears but may look into having some more made at some point in the future. The gears I have will only be included in the engines we build so they won't be available for sale right away seperatly yet.

Sean Morley

 

[craigncote]

OK, the reason for the steel gear is to make it overdrive the pump. This allows for more oil pressure for the higher rpm oiling. You also have to shim the pump up from the block .125" to get the correct mating of the gears back. With this setup and a few other tips when the engine is out will allow full throttle runs at rpm's of up to 11,200 compared to stock and oil pressures of 100psi.

This knowledge was recently gained by me in a bulk lot I purchased from a man in Las Vegas over the weekend. He spent over $250,000 during the 5 years he raced these engines in mini-sprint cars. I aquired a lot of one off and custom parts from him as well as the stuff they learned over the years trying to make the engines live in that environment. They basically run 25 laps at full throttle with 11,200 rpm as their limit. You would not even believe the amount of testing and custom stuff they made. I have numerous flywheels that were modified. Side draft carbs, down draft carbs, custom ignitions, custom exhausts, you name it they tried it. Many of the items won't work in a street bike chassis but will work in a drag bike chassis. Of course the internal tricks they learned to make the bottom end survive will work in any of our bikes.

Essentually they were dynoing these engines at 160rwhp and still keeping the stock 1200cc bore!!!!

I've got chain drive conversions that don't require maching the cases, jaguar ignition systems, dyna 2000 from Suzukis made to fit, block guirdles to beef up the lower end from flexing, hell - I don't even know what all I have!!!

I'm going to have a very limited supply of the metal oil pump drive gears but may look into having some more made at some point in the future. The gears I have will only be included in the engines we build so they won't be available for sale right away seperatly yet.

Sean Morley