What's happening to my country?

[TURBOVMAX]

I posted the thread asking for machinist, toolmakers and fabricators to come forward. Thought there would be a long list of people. Guess we don't manufacture enough in this country to support apprentice programs for younger people anymore.

Pretty sad. Being an R&D manager here in Connecticut where Pratt and Whitney Aircraft is actually in my back yard. We have a hard time finding skilled machinist and toolmaker help. When we do, their generally in their mid 50's.

It seems that if you don't sell morgages, sell insurance, deal in investments, oil or build buildings for people doing said jobs. There isn't a whole lot to do here for our youth entering the job market. It seems to me a good place for President Obama to start healing the economy would be... to start making things here.

What's happening to this country?

 

[[email protected]]

I agree that most young people today don't have a marketable skill set to put to work for themselves. I can say that without prejudice as I have just turned 30 myself. I mostly sit in an office now but for the past 7 years I have learned my field from the bottom up, literally. (started with excavation and ended up building 300' tall communication structures). I am STILL light years away from knowing everything I need to know to do my job the best that one can, but that's besides the point.

Here's my point: We try to hire people all the time. We get quite a few young people (<30 years old)come through here that have absolutely no idea how to do ANYTHING. It's ridiculous. It it doesn't include text messaging, playstation, or the computer than they can't do it.

The worst part is that it seems that they have no aptitude to learn anything "hands on". I know these are very broad generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule. But to me it seems you can teach them anything that is computer orientated and they catch on fairly easily. Give them something that may take some common sense, a little physical coordination (other than thumbs), and some technical ability and they are lost.

I don't blame it on the government. I blame it on parents that are happy to let their kids hide in their rooms and do nothing but gaming, texting, etc. They don't get their kids out and make them work on things. I ask people, "well, have you never helped you family work on the house, or build something, make repairs at home of any type?" You would be surprised by how many don't know that a pair of channel lock pliers or pipe wrench are designed to be used in a specific direction, have NO clue on how to read a tape measure (12 and 2 little lines about half), not enough common sense to clean out a ditch with a shovel. Any many more very SIMPLE things.

Let alone doing extensive, hands on, one-off, fabrication. Yes, some can do amazing things. But it seems that hand craftsmanship of any kind may become a lost art in the next 50 years.

 

[gamorg02]

I agree that most young people today don't have a marketable skill set to put to work for themselves. I can say that without prejudice as I have just turned 30 myself. I mostly sit in an office now but for the past 7 years I have learned my field from the bottom up, literally. (started with excavation and ended up building 300' tall communication structures). I am STILL light years away from knowing everything I need to know to do my job the best that one can, but that's besides the point.

Here's my point: We try to hire people all the time. We get quite a few young people (<30 years old)come through here that have absolutely no idea how to do ANYTHING. It's ridiculous. It it doesn't include text messaging, playstation, or the computer than they can't do it.

The worst part is that it seems that they have no aptitude to learn anything "hands on". I know these are very broad generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule. But to me it seems you can teach them anything that is computer orientated and they catch on fairly easily. Give them something that may take some common sense, a little physical coordination (other than thumbs), and some technical ability and they are lost.

I don't blame it on the government. I blame it on parents that are happy to let their kids hide in their rooms and do nothing but gaming, texting, etc. They don't get their kids out and make them work on things. I ask people, "well, have you never helped you family work on the house, or build something, make repairs at home of any type?" You would be surprised by how many don't know that a pair of channel lock pliers or pipe wrench are designed to be used in a specific direction, have NO clue on how to read a tape measure (12 and 2 little lines about half), not enough common sense to clean out a ditch with a shovel. Any many more very SIMPLE things.

Let alone doing extensive, hands on, one-off, fabrication. Yes, some can do amazing things. But it seems that hand craftsmanship of any kind may become a lost art in the next 50 years.

being 24 i kind of agree with you guys. not necessarily about whose fault it is, but that the new generation has lost those skills. I think we have aquired new skills, however, the old ones shouldn't be lost. me myself, i'm trying to teach myself a lot of those things. we also have a wealth of knowledge that those above 40 yrs didn't have at our age. anything i want to know hwo to do there are 100 how-to's online for me to read and find the best way to do things, so there is really no excuse either...

just my $.02

 

[dannymax]

I agree that most young people today don't have a marketable skill set to put to work for themselves. I can say that without prejudice as I have just turned 30 myself. I mostly sit in an office now but for the past 7 years I have learned my field from the bottom up, literally. (started with excavation and ended up building 300' tall communication structures). I am STILL light years away from knowing everything I need to know to do my job the best that one can, but that's besides the point.

Here's my point: We try to hire people all the time. We get quite a few young people (<30 years old)come through here that have absolutely no idea how to do ANYTHING. It's ridiculous. It it doesn't include text messaging, playstation, or the computer than they can't do it.

The worst part is that it seems that they have no aptitude to learn anything "hands on". I know these are very broad generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule. But to me it seems you can teach them anything that is computer orientated and they catch on fairly easily. Give them something that may take some common sense, a little physical coordination (other than thumbs), and some technical ability and they are lost.

I don't blame it on the government. I blame it on parents that are happy to let their kids hide in their rooms and do nothing but gaming, texting, etc. They don't get their kids out and make them work on things. I ask people, "well, have you never helped you family work on the house, or build something, make repairs at home of any type?" You would be surprised by how many don't know that a pair of channel lock pliers or pipe wrench are designed to be used in a specific direction, have NO clue on how to read a tape measure (12 and 2 little lines about half), not enough common sense to clean out a ditch with a shovel. Any many more very SIMPLE things.

Let alone doing extensive, hands on, one-off, fabrication. Yes, some can do amazing things. But it seems that hand craftsmanship of any kind may become a lost art in the next 50 years.

Hit it right on the head Mab!! It's not the government's fault, it goes right back to the family level. When the 'family unit' fell apart, for whatever reason, the whole process came to a halt. There used to be kids knocking on doors to shovel walks in the winter and mow lawns in the summer. When was the last time a kid knocked on your door looking for some handy work? Forget about knocking on your door, have you tried to even FIND a kid do do some odd job type work?

A story from the past--After a 2 foot snowstorm the family was sitting at the kitchen table looking out the window, I'm thinking there's a heck of a lot of snow out there and I'm gonna have to shovel it! I could feel my father looking at me and he said, "The Lord put it there, the Lord'll take it away!" This surprised me quite a bit but he cleared it up with his next statement which was, "Danny, put your coat & hat on and go help the Lord!"

That was then........now you got kids divorcing their parents, AND sueing for support!!

Is it just me...........................:ummm:

 

[Redbone]

I know a couple of "twenty somethings" that are highly motivated and skilled in their fields. But I have to say both their parents were involved with them big time and both of these kids have no problem jumping under the hood to wrench, grabbing a shovel, etc. Chris and his roommate (both college grads in engineering) both got trucks and modded them. Chris did all the mods himself add the exhaust, ignition chip, k&n, and a couple other things while his roommate spent about 3k getting it all installed.
When one of the parents stays home, and both parents are involved with what the kids are doing it makes for a better family environment. I think the kids today need a lot more self confidence and that they get that from their parents. Sure, parents can be over protective, but kids still spend too much time away from parents in the care of others. The two working parents model is not working for America IMO.
It could be that I live in a rural area, but I have had 2 kids knock on my door to shovel my roof this winter. One was too young IMO and the other one came just before a big storm was coming. He did not come back so I may have to do myself. OH NO! :rofl_200:

 

[Buster Hymen]

I think this statement goes both ways for age. I find a lot of older people may be good mechanically but suck or have no knowledge of how to work with a computer and don't want to put the effort into learning it.

 

[naughtyG]

They just haven't seen an Apple Mac...

 

[richwrench]

I remember back in the 70's it was honorable to learn a trade - any trade. My ancestors were pipe fitters, coal miners, carpenters, plumbers - I decided to become a mechanic. I love going to work every day - probably one of the few people who enjoys earning a living with my hands. But you wouldn't believe how many people come up to me & say " Why don't you better yourself ? You don't have to be a mechanic your whole life." That's the problem with our society today - no respect for ANY blue-collar jobs. My son used to work on small projects with me when he was younger, but as he got older he migrated away from anything to do with tools or dirty work. His freakin' high school offered NO shop classes whatsoever. No wood shop, metal shop, welding, agriculture - NOTHING !! Now he's 18 & he wants a medical or computer job some day - that's fine, but they drilled into him for years that blue-collar work is second-class, & that freakin' kills me. I love my boy, but I'm afraid he couldn't change a tire if he had to. I see a LOT of that in his generation. I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right it spells bad news for the once great USA.

 

[Mitchell]

I remember back in the 70's it was honorable to learn a trade - any trade. My ancestors were pipe fitters, coal miners, carpenters, plumbers - I decided to become a mechanic. I love going to work every day - probably one of the few people who enjoys earning a living with my hands. But you wouldn't believe how many people come up to me & say " Why don't you better yourself ? You don't have to be a mechanic your whole life." That's the problem with our society today - no respect for ANY blue-collar jobs. My son used to work on small projects with me when he was younger, but as he got older he migrated away from anything to do with tools or dirty work. His freakin' high school offered NO shop classes whatsoever. No wood shop, metal shop, welding, agriculture - NOTHING !! Now he's 18 & he wants a medical or computer job some day - that's fine, but they drilled into him for years that blue-collar work is second-class, & that freakin' kills me. I love my boy, but I'm afraid he couldn't change a tire if he had to. I see a LOT of that in his generation. I
hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right it spells bad news for the once great USA.

Well Said:clapping: Without tradesman and blue collar workers the world would literally fall apart. I can't count how many times people would tell me the same thing about bettering myself, go to college, get a degree, etc. For the past 25 years I've busted ass to do the best at what I do and learn to live within my mean's. Granted, I dont make 3 figures, but as long as I have my health I will be able to put food on the table. Ya know, with the current economic situation, I feel very fortunate to have my HVAC trade. Simply because there will always be a demand for sharp techs to keep the white collar pussies comfortable.

 

[Lew L]

Well there is a shop teacher on the forum. I've been teaching metal working, welding ,and machining for most of my life (and now begining auto). I do get a few kids to go into the trades and most do show some interest.
When I taught in San Jose , Ca the school dist was in the process of closing all the career tech classes. I saw the light at the end of the tunnel--- it was a train---- so I left for Nevada. The school district here would love to close all our shops and have closed some already.
The kids---- most are pretty good but the work ethic is gone. Integrity is lacking. Without those two things, as many of you fear--- the future is a bit grim.

 

[cool1442]

I'm a school teacher, but I was a journeyman electrician for 15 years. Pains me to say it, but so many kids have NO rudder at all.. the futrue is next weekend. They are totally crippled without their damned cell phones and Ipods. Those two inventions are the worst things to ever happen to regular education, cuz the kids are so damned dependent on them. I steer about one kid a year toward apprentice programs, but that wont get anything done.. The over all attitude is that kids need to be buried in science and math, which is so much bullshit.. when people want some framing done or some plumbing or electrical fixed, they dont want some weakassed computer repairman, they want a guy that isnt afraid to get dirty and knows some real world stuff. This all science and math idea will soon be recognized as the biggest cause of high school dropouts ever.
The kids are being forced toward that path and away from any vocational training, and even stuff like art and music and drama are getting chopped away, but I still try to make a difference each day,,, gotta keep trying so I can sleep at night.

 

[Dirtystinknape]

I'm a school teacher, but I was a journeyman electrician for 15 years. Pains me to say it, but so many kids have NO rudder at all.. the futrue is next weekend. They are totally crippled without their damned cell phones and Ipods. Those two inventions are the worst things to ever happen to regular education, cuz the kids are so damned dependent on them. I steer about one kid a year toward apprentice programs, but that wont get anything done.. The over all attitude is that kids need to be buried in science and math, which is so much bullshit.. when people want some framing done or some plumbing or electrical fixed, they dont want some weakassed computer repairman, they want a guy that isnt afraid to get dirty and knows some real world stuff. This all science and math idea will soon be recognized as the biggest cause of high school dropouts ever.
The kids are being forced toward that path and away from any vocational training, and even stuff like art and music and drama are getting chopped away, but I still try to make a difference each day,,, gotta keep trying so I can sleep at night.

Cool, if you don't mind me asking are you a public or private school teacher? I have no kids yet but I have heard so many political correctness horror stories coming out of the public school system. I don't know if they are exaggerated or they are true for the most part. All I have is my own experiences but I graduated in 93. Not exactly a long time ago but I am sure a lot of things has changed just by looking at how the younger kids act now days. I mean, we had some real pieces of work but some of these kids act like they were raised on hate and decisiveness. Is it the parents, the culture or both? Just curious on what your thoughts were on the subject. If you think this is getting too off topic you can PM me if you get some free time.

Robert

 

[TURBOVMAX]

I'm a school teacher, but I was a journeyman electrician for 15 years. Pains me to say it, but so many kids have NO rudder at all.. the futrue is next weekend. They are totally crippled without their damned cell phones and Ipods. Those two inventions are the worst things to ever happen to regular education, cuz the kids are so damned dependent on them. I steer about one kid a year toward apprentice programs, but that wont get anything done.. The over all attitude is that kids need to be buried in science and math, which is so much bullshit.. when people want some framing done or some plumbing or electrical fixed, they dont want some weakassed computer repairman, they want a guy that isnt afraid to get dirty and knows some real world stuff. This all science and math idea will soon be recognized as the biggest cause of high school dropouts ever.
The kids are being forced toward that path and away from any vocational training, and even stuff like art and music and drama are getting chopped away, but I still try to make a difference each day,,, gotta keep trying so I can sleep at night.

We've entered the information age where company execs spend long days in meetings. Trying to come up with a positive spin on some f*ck up that they've created. I'm guilty of spoiling my child. The problem as I see it with the youth is simply...they've never had a want. I remember my dad who worked as a lumberjack cutting tree's on the Allagash in northern Miane, saying to me one Christmas as I sat quietly beside him watching my brother's and sister's opening gifts. ( I had gotten up early and opened mine : ) He said...I remember when when I was young, if we got an orange in our stocking on Christmas... Ohhhhh he said with a smile, we'd eat a slice every day.

That statement has stuck in my mind ever since. Maybe it all has to come down to that, before everything turns around. I certainly hope not!

I don't believe it's the government's fault... it has everything to do with greed. Unfortunatly that does spill over into politics, we see it every day. Our industry has been shipped to third world countries who hunger for everything we have. God help them.

 

[gamorg02]

as i said before, i am 24 and i guess i have the knowledge of fitting into the category of today's youth. Probably one of the few on the site.

I don't think it is all necessarily our faults. Sciences, math are definitely pressured into us, and the hands on trades are not, from an early age. Those that have come to the conclusion that those trades are no longer worthy hold some part of the responsibility of pushing their thoughts to us. THey also hold the responsibility of brainwashing every 'guidance counselor', 'job counselor' and the like that you meet throughout school and your youth.

I know a lot of the young guys today would just rather pay for the work to be done then do it themselves because they have the money. in a couple years i dont know if everyone will be so lucky anymore and we may see a rise in those types of trades....

i myself work for a tech giant in QA, and learned some of these things from my father (not nearly enough), and i regret every day not learning more. i am trying to learn now thru all means necessary and am probably going to help out a local bike shop come spring.... so maybe i just wanted to defend myself a bit and say i do know some things, but its places like this our youth comes to learn as well i'd say...

i dunno, just my $.02 as usual

 

[113s&s]

send both kids through private schools at the cost of close to 100,000 thats not counting collage...they .have no idea how to check the oil in there car ...bang a nail...fix a toilet..ect.important thing is never had a problem with my kids.....my father was a plasterer all his life...i asked him at a young age to teach me...he told me no...finally at 52 i understand why ... big difference is he worked for someone else and broke his balls 7 days a week..i work for myself plastering and take it easy......grand parents came to this country as most of the country did with good work ethic and passed it to the kids ..happens to be our parents...last twenty years people coming in the country get on welfair and there kids get on welfair and there kids get on welfair...kids see that parents grandparents sitting around collecting checks and think thats normal....end welfair and see how many people come around looking for work...goverment has a lot to do with the decline of this country

 

[jfeagins]

Today's mindset seems to have changed along the way.

Anymore, it seems, people have forgotten JFK's famous saying " Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Instead, they've become confused and changed it simply to "What can my government give me, because I'm entitled."

Sad.

 

[Noxx72]

I remember back in the 70's it was honorable to learn a trade - any trade. My ancestors were pipe fitters, coal miners, carpenters, plumbers - I decided to become a mechanic. I love going to work every day - probably one of the few people who enjoys earning a living with my hands. But you wouldn't believe how many people come up to me & say " Why don't you better yourself ? You don't have to be a mechanic your whole life." That's the problem with our society today - no respect for ANY blue-collar jobs. My son used to work on small projects with me when he was younger, but as he got older he migrated away from anything to do with tools or dirty work. His freakin' high school offered NO shop classes whatsoever. No wood shop, metal shop, welding, agriculture - NOTHING !! Now he's 18 & he wants a medical or computer job some day - that's fine, but they drilled into him for years that blue-collar work is second-class, & that freakin' kills me. I love my boy, but I'm afraid he couldn't change a tire if he had to. I see a LOT of that in his generation. I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right it spells bad news for the once great USA.

I blame a lot of it on schooling. I'm pretty young at 36, but even when I went through junior high "Shop" was a required course. Now just try to find a decent shop class at your kids schools.

The rest of it, well, it pains me to say it but I will. Americans have become GD snobs. There's a general feeling in this country that if you have a little bit of money it's beneath you to do any physical work, thats what we pay "other people" for.

It's very sad but I can see this history very clearly in my own family. My grandfather on one side was and engineer and a tinkerer. He put in over thirty years with General Dynamics, and with Radio Marine before that. For my fourth grade science project, he showed me how to wire a couple of phone handsets together with a couple of dry cell batteries, explained how it worked, and we installed the wiring and power source (very, very, neatly...my grandfather was a jewish engineer from the days when you wore a tie to the missile range) in an old cigar box. I loved it, it was a bit like knowing the secret to a very good magic trick. My other grandfather started his own business in his garage, which grew to a large steel fab company. At 14 he gave me a summer job on a brake press out on the floor.

Move a generation to my old man, and he's been some sort of salesman his whole life. He thinks it's beneath him to work on his car, install an attic fan, or a sprinkler, etc. For all that pretense (and thirty years seniority on me) he makes about 10k a year more than I do. That personally, my household income trashes his because my wife works.

I don't know how that happened to my father, except to say that maybe he didn't want to be like his father. I don't know what's going on with my co-workers kids, except to say that in some way they've been programmed to believe that as long as they mash the right buttons in a cubicle somewhere, someone else will do all of the real work in the world for them, feed them, cloth them, and care for them.

I don't know if it's happenstance or not that makes a man what he is. For myself, I've been an electrician for a long time. I specialize in industrial controls and automation, and I love my job, and god forbid you should catch me in a tie. I know how to hunt, fish and cook. I know my way the basics of an internal combustion engine alright, how to build your average structure, I know how to maintain, repair, and reload ammunition for a variety of firearms. I know how to solder pipe, lay bricks, dress a wound, perform a tracheotomy, and sometimes I can even program my own VCR.

Maybe all these kids need is a old phone in a cigar box.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Yike's...Those darn kids, Thought mine was going to be rocket scientist. WRONG!
She never did like school. She's a hair stylist now and happy as a lark. Most important, she's self sufficient. She works from home and from what I hear she gets from people (hundreds) for those crazy lookin dooo's. Wish I went that route.

Guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Took me years to go back after high school to get a degree. But only after finding a passion.

I scored an entry level drill press job at Pratt and Whitney Aircraft. I remember taking a bus (not an Acura) to the personnel dept. every Monday morning to apply for a job. Once I got the personnel managers name I'd go ask for him every Monday. He finally got sick of looking at me and gave me a job.

It was fascinating and I couldn't get enough. Those opportunities simply don't exist for todays youth and that's not their fault.

 

[hubeerjw]

I'm going to jump in here. A lot of good points have been brought up and agree with most of them. It all starts with the parents. With both parents working, it really affects the parent/child interaction. Parents want to be "friends" with their kids, not their "parents", which is BULL! Kids need to know that there are consequences for their actions, and to learn respect for others. My wife is a school teacher and I will tell you she puts in more time and money for that school and for those kids than almost any other teacher in the district.... not because she has to, but because she wants to do the best job possible.

Noxx72, when you said, "it is the school's fault", it pisses me off. (I'm not mad at you, far from it because I think after reading your post you will agree with my comments that will follow). Schools are on a limited budget, no doubt about it. Schools are not able to afford shop, band, and other programs (even some sports) because of budget cuts. It isn't the schools fault, it is the governments fault. I wouldn't care if taxes were raised 10% IF (and that is a big 'if') I knew it was ALL going to education. Even then, it can be wasted, but we can't keep cutting education budgets.

Another thing with having some of the various tools and equipment is the liability factor. There are too many sue-happy people out there trying to make a quick $, and will sue whoever they can whenever they can.

I'm 31, and the only game I had was pong.... no color, (unless you include black and white) I grew up with all my friends having Nintendos, but not me... I had PONG! Our family was one of the first families in the community to have our own computer, and by the time I was in late elementary, I knew more about it than most teachers.... I could hack into programs and debug some software.... I probably should have kept going with that, but it never really interested me a whole lot. My point being, I was forced to go outside and play. I built my own toys out of wood. I had my first Harley basket case at age 14 (paid $50 for it). All my friends had Star Wars, He-Man, and WWF action figures, I had Legos. I mowed yards from 6th grade through high school. I also was my uncles farm hand for 6 years in the summer. I scooped shit, snow, and anything I was told too. I usually hated my parents because they punished me for my actions. I paid my way through college. My parents helped me a little, but for the most part I did it on my own. I have a good job (for now anyway), I have a great wife, a dog, our small house is paid off, we own both of our cars (I drive an Explorer with 211,000 miles). We don't live outside our means, but we work hard for what we have. Kids need a strong foundation, consistent parenting, discipline, love, education, support, and just spending time with them.... the best thing about all of those items I just listed is that most of them are free or cost very little.

 

[dannymax]

We don't live outside our means, but we work hard for what we have. .

Jeff's statement is key in this discussion IMO. Living inside one's means isn't even the 'American Way' any more! People are bombarded with offers for 'low interest' money, 'no interest' credit cards, reverse mortgages, home equity loans, etc., etc.! What about EARNING the money for what you want, THEN buying it?

Lots of young couples starting out have a brand new home, 2 SUV's, a boat, a bike and prolly a couple jet ski's. Hell, they're financially buried right from the get-go!

Now the banking and housing industries need bail out money to keep afloat, what does that say for their approach?

There are lots of problems in todays America. Certainly a lot goes back to the family unit and parental influence but if a good strong "earn the money, THEN buy what you want" ethic is implanted then the kids will be fine.

Then it doesn't matter how they earn their living....we need doctors & lawyers, grease monkeys, ditch diggers and computer jocks...that's what makes the country operate....just forget this EASY MONEY thing...it's a mith!