creaking for rear end with new mods

[gamorg02]

hey all.

some of you may be following my posts here:
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=327

but i've been having some issues which are now I'm pretty sure not related to the typical misallignment of the final drive, so i figured i'd start a new thread.

i've been harrassing Sean at home and I hope to give him a bit of a break.

Symptoms:

There is a creaking coming form the rear end. Not clicking, not metallic sounding initially at all. Just purchased a 17" kosman (85 with lips removed and a 17"x5.5" bead welded on) and a braced and notched swingarm from sean.

When it happens:

I can only hear it when the bike is off. If the bike is warmed up and I roll it around in N i can hear it (not usually in the same place until lately). Or if its warmed up and I put it in gear, when it hits where the gear stops, it will creak there most of the time (forward or back).

Also today i was in a parking garage (taking pics for the mod monkey contest) and i figured i'd kill the engine and see if i could hear it at speed. sure enough killing the engine and rolling i could hear a rotational creak. figured its time to look into this more.


Troubleshooting and results:

First realized the swingarm was about 1/8" or so narrower than stock so the axle was not sitting in properly. I stretched the swingarm back to the stock size (what a pain) and the axle goes in smoother but still not perfect.

When i get it to creak, if I take the axle out, just far enough so the fat end of it comes out of the collar, the creaking is gone, 100%. so that says to me something is not sitting right once the axle comes all the way in.

To eliminate anything I tried to see if it was the new wheel. took everything off and tried my old (stock '03) wheel. no creak even after warmed up. axle still feels like its not 100% lined up with this setup..

so with that in mind i really looked at the new wheel. I had tried spinning in on some jackstands and with a dial indicator the worst part was 0.025" of runout. I was thinking if a bearing was sitting really bad in there it would show worse runout than that!

so anyways in investigating the new wheel tonight i realize the needle bearing is almost all the way out (so the outter end of the bearing is almost to the end of the spline, about 1/2" off the stopper in there). Also everything but the flat part of the seal was gone. the two parts that run parallel to the axle were chewed away. I could have SWORN i put it in right. I drive it back in further (one of the bearings popped out, i popped it back in) and hooked it all back up. less creak but still there.

Now looking at my old wheel, the needle bearing in THAT is about 1/2 to the end. I didn't think these bearings could 'walk' like that, nor has Sean ever seen it (doesn't bode well for me!)


So i'm at my witts end on what else to try. I'm going to call kosman in the AM to see if they have any suggestions, but it definitely seems like the wheel (as others have suggested) but what do I check? It is an OEM vmax wheel (and most of it unlike other kosman wheels) with all OEM hub parts n such.

I guess I could re-try doing the bearings but not sure if that would help. it will be neat to see if in another few hundred miles the needle bearing pops out again.

anyways any thoughts would be appreciated. thanks.:bang head: .

Only other thought i have at this point is trying 'the washer swap'? maybe something is too close since the cush drive is not original to the wheel?

 

[gamorg02]

Oh and here is a pic of the INNER needle race from when I last was troubleshooting until now. Unfortunately I don't have any before pics:

 

[one2dmax]

Just checking. The step in that busing faces away from the center of the wheel. I don't think that's going to be related to anything but more a comment for anyone messing with their wheel. We have had those scored internally which makes the axle go in and out very hard. Again I don't think that's the issue unless it's sticking on the axle and even then the stack up on the internal races is where all the torque is applied when snugging up the axle nut so there can't be any play in that part of the assembly.

The bearing backing out is strange for sure and i'm not sure what to think. I've honestly never bothered to check any of the wheels I have to see if they have done that. I know that any of them I have replaced the bearings on usually have to be destroyed to get removed.

 

[dannymax]

Could the .025" run-out be causing the bearing to walk and the walking is making the creaking sound?

Or is the run-out up on the lips?

 

[gamorg02]

Just checking. The step in that busing faces away from the center of the wheel. I don't think that's going to be related to anything but more a comment for anyone messing with their wheel. We have had those scored internally which makes the axle go in and out very hard. Again I don't think that's the issue unless it's sticking on the axle and even then the stack up on the internal races is where all the torque is applied when snugging up the axle nut so there can't be any play in that part of the assembly.

The bearing backing out is strange for sure and i'm not sure what to think. I've honestly never bothered to check any of the wheels I have to see if they have done that. I know that any of them I have replaced the bearings on usually have to be destroyed to get removed.

yes that is correct sean, I have the step facing towards the pumpkin.

Could the .025" run-out be causing the bearing to walk and the walking is making the creaking sound?

Or is the run-out up on the lips?

0.025 is the outer most point

the outer most original part of the wheel was 0.015"

couldn't find a legit spot to do much closer but i sort of got a reading that was much less than that.

danny u have a rear wheel off yea? can you remove the needle bearing inner race and see if the bearing is seated all the way in?

 

[spursmech]

:confused2: If you take the brake pads out of the caliper does it make this noise. If the wheel is .0025 out of alignment the brake disc may be out more than the .0010 it has for correct installation. Good Luck, Spurs

 

[dannymax]

yes that is correct sean, I have the step facing towards the pumpkin.



0.025 is the outer most point

the outer most original part of the wheel was 0.015"

couldn't find a legit spot to do much closer but i sort of got a reading that was much less than that.

danny u have a rear wheel off yea? can you remove the needle bearing inner race and see if the bearing is seated all the way in?

Yup, I can do that....

 

[gamorg02]

:confused2: If you take the brake pads out of the caliper does it make this noise. If the wheel is .0025 out of alignment the brake disc may be out more than the .0010 it has for correct installation. Good Luck, Spurs

its def coming from the rear dif that area b/c i can take the caliper off and it still makes the noise.

 

[adamax]

I read somewhere that the ventures and vmaxes could have a creaking noise while the wheel is rotated and there are 2 areas that need to be very clean and well greased:
1) the splines that are visible when taking off the wheel
2) the pins that go into the bushings that are pressed in the wheel
Also look for evidence that those rubber bushings are maybe not fully pressed in and rubbing
Good luck

 

[gamorg02]

I read somewhere that the ventures and vmaxes could have a creaking noise while the wheel is rotated and there are 2 areas that need to be very clean and well greased:
1) the splines that are visible when taking off the wheel

i have not greased them but can. the old wheel doesn't have much grease there anyways.

2) the pins that go into the bushings that are pressed in the wheel
Also look for evidence that those rubber bushings are maybe not fully pressed in and rubbing
Good luck

no grease there either. those are in good shape though

i can easily try greasing both parts.

 

[satariel666]

I'd stay with my previous opinion Garret.

I could be wrong as usual.

 

[gamorg02]

I'd stay with my previous opinion Garret.

I could be wrong as usual.

you think the needle bearing? you think I need to bring the whole assembly to a machine shop to check it out?

 

[satariel666]

you think the needle bearing? you think I need to bring the whole assembly to a machine shop to check it out?

With all diplomacy Id say something close/related to the neddle bearing :whistlin:

 

[gamorg02]

With all diplomacy Id say something close/related to the neddle bearing :whistlin:

definitely think we're on the right track, but what else can i look for? investigate? or do i need to bring it to a shop.

still trying to get ahold of Kosman.

the walking of the bearing is probably symptomatic of the issue

the question is, what could have been done wrong since the original OEM hub is still intact and not changed?

if something was off, wouldn't the dial indicator shown bigger problems?

I'm not second guessing, I just don't know enough to know what exactly to look for, try

 

[gamorg02]

little more indepth service bulletin...

 

[adamax]

Yep, this is the bulletin I am refering to. Most including myself, only use a dap of grease at the splines but never look at the pins or bushing. I guess it is a very possible cause so maybe better eliminate it by inspecting/lubing the pins and inspecting the bushings maybe one was not fully seated by a hair so it is scraping at a spot. Visual inspection would reveal if it is touching. I know, you probably removed that wheel a dozen times at least, but as I keep doing the same thing over and over I tend to do it a bit quicker everytime... Good luck

 

[[email protected]]

Good info there on the dampers and drive pins. Can't say if its that or the bearing. I'd lean more towards the bearings since it seems to be walking out.

Either way, I'd be makings sure the dampers are fully seated and coating the drive pins and the pinion nut with some good moly paste.

 

[gamorg02]

Yep, this is the bulletin I am refering to. Most including myself, only use a dap of grease at the splines but never look at the pins or bushing. I guess it is a very possible cause so maybe better eliminate it by inspecting/lubing the pins and inspecting the bushings maybe one was not fully seated by a hair so it is scraping at a spot. Visual inspection would reveal if it is touching. I know, you probably removed that wheel a dozen times at least, but as I keep doing the same thing over and over I tend to do it a bit quicker everytime... Good luck

well gotta keep eliminating things so i gotta try right! yea i used to be able to do the rear wheel in about 5 mins. now taking the left exhaust off, left shock, rear diff and driveshaft takes a bit longer. then spilling hypoid oil all over myself.

Good info there on the dampers and drive pins. Can't say if its that or the bearing. I'd lean more towards the bearings since it seems to be walking out.

Either way, I'd be makings sure the dampers are fully seated and coating the drive pins and the pinion nut with some good moly paste.

yea i'm gonna drive my oil seal in a bit more too see if that helps, if it isn't chewed to hell that is (i'm using a spare from the other wheel)

any reason some good waterproof wheel bearing grease won't work? thats usually what i use on everything.

 

[satariel666]

definitely think we're on the right track, but what else can i look for? investigate? or do i need to bring it to a shop.

still trying to get ahold of Kosman.

the walking of the bearing is probably symptomatic of the issue

the question is, what could have been done wrong since the original OEM hub is still intact and not changed?

if something was off, wouldn't the dial indicator shown bigger problems?

I'm not second guessing, I just don't know enough to know what exactly to look for, try

Try to ask kosman if he changed anything along the bearings,spacers and the clutch hub.

That would give Ya a clue.


As for the indepth service bulletin.
Someone says that the axle should get into drive very smothly.
Like Sean, I dont see any problem with this.
The main rue is: evrything will bend due the welding, evrything.

Good welder will know how to minimalize that effect.


I've done the swingarm mod couple of times, something around 6-7.
All were bend a little due the welding. Evry axle in those swingarm started to go in little harder.
Mine swingarm also need some rubber hammer to get out the axle.
Nothing dramatic, just light wack with rubber.
But mine is not creaking...anymore for the time I found it was the bearing.

Garret I will help Ya as much as I can but "You" must decide what to do with this.
Fight or let it go.

 

[adamax]

I'd say fight, the bulletin is the wheel off, a snap ring and a good visual inspection, then go from there. Go Garret, we all support you unk: ...