Installing an oil pressure gauge

[one2dmax]

Shawn, oil light and oil pressure are two completely different issues and not related. Oil light coming on has to do with hard acceleration and/or lower oil level. I fill mine to top of sight glass when changing. As oil level drops in pan, light will come on more readily. It will be interesting to see what effect the bulged 0-ring has on the pressure.

"the more you learn the less you know"

Keep in mind where the location of the o-ring in question is. Bascially it is also in the front of the sump where the sensor is.

So

It is highly possible that the oil was getting areiated and pushed away sooner from the force of the fluid escaping past the o-ring. This is of course all theory but entirely within the realm of reason. This is why "windage" trays were invented for automotive use. The keep the oil in as liquid a state as possible.

 

[mikemax04]

Mike I understand how it works as I see it on pretty regularly.:th_biggun:

I thought you did shawn.

 

[mikemax04]

"the more you learn the less you know"

You know, I thought I left those kind of remarks behind me when I joined this forum. Seems like I was apparently wrong about you and like some of the other "techies" on the Yahoo list, need to put others down in order to make yourself seem bigger. Show me where I was wrong or why the need for calling others dumb. You go a lot on "This is of course all theory but entirely within the realm of reason". If one doesn't know the facts and has to go on theory, then anyones theory is plausible until the real facts are established. Aren't you also a big fan of the Furbur Fix? LOL

 

[iowaz]

I rarely get involved in this topic/discussion anymore, but a few thoughts.

Nearly every one of the people to contact me the past five years regarding oil pressure and the oring have had the oring bubbled out when the running pressure was in the 25+/-range, or below 30lb when at 4k rpm, 5th gear, hot engine, in general. If the oring is bubbled out, then oil just has to be backflowing into the sump. For those that like oil backflowing, let it happen, for those that do not, find a fix that you like. NO, NO, NO, Yamaha has not fixed the oring issue or delivery elbow, nor are they going too, nor are they going to admit to anything. Yes, both small and large orings can bubble out, but the smaller orange oring is much less likely to get caught. Yes, the round top or flat top elbow will both let the oring get caught. I have not found, nor received a report of the Kaw Oval ring getting caught, yet. I have not found, nor received a report that convinces me any of the other fixes including the hangers or hard wiring the elbow in place is a 'perfect' solution. So each is on his own regarding what works/does not work, to ignore or check or try a fix. My opinion, although constantly open for change remains, that the oring is an issue, a pressure gauge is needed, monitoring/study is imporant. And yes, there has been catastrophic to partial engine damage, probably on a lot more bikes than anyone really knows/understands. No, every bike does not have an oring bubbled out, but the percentage, although unknown, is likely much higher than once thought.

My advice is usually, if a gauge is installed, take the Max out for a good long run of 15-20+ miles where it can heat up as fully as possible. Check the pressure reading at 4k rpm while running down the road in 5th gear. The bench mark seems to be 35-40lb at 4k rpm, 5th gear, when hot. Try not to idle the bike any more than necessary as low rpm's are just plain hard
on the oil flow. Warm up on the go by controlling acceleration/rpm's as much as possible. The water temp
gauge is NOT a good indicator of a warm engine. When the pressure drops back out of the 60-70lb cold range,
that is a good indicator the engine is starting to be at operating temp and the point where it can be monitored
and also run normal/harder.

Do not be concerned about any other pressure except the hot running pressure at 4k rpm in 5th gear running down
the highway. Use that as a 'marker' that you can easily remember to monitor consistently. If that pressure seems low
then you need to open the sump and look at the orange oring as it will likely be bubbled out of position. If you are one of those people that believe a bubble oring is not an issue, then nothing to worry about. If you carefully warm up the engine on the go, the high start-up pressure is not an issue. Many advise the high start up pressure is the reason for the oring to be bubble out. Perhaps, but I tend to feel the up/down movement of the elbow in the case channel is the primary reason, letting the oring fall into the beveled area and not being able to slide back into the normal channel position, thus remaining bubbled out. That is the reason the big/fat orange ring is being caught at a much higher frequency than the smaller orange or Kaw oval ring. If you do not idle any more than absolutely necessary then the low idle pressure (5-8 lb) is not an issue. Low pressure of 25+/- on a hot engine at 4k rpm in 5th gear is an issue, IMO.

 

[mikemax04]

Iowaz, this is the kind of post that I can appreciate. Even though we don't agree on the issue, opinions should be expressed without belittling anybody else. For those that can't grasp the meaning of "The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know". This states that only the stupid know it all because of their minute experience and education, like the kids in high school. The more one learns, the bigger and more complex becomes the world around us, and by realizing this, we accept the fact that there is so much more to learn and are willing to do so. It's a statement of humility in the process of learning.

 

[G Man]

And yet you continue... please, stay on topic. (Which by the way was "Installing an oil pressure guage") Opinions have been expressed. Post new useful info related to the original thread or move on.

 

[one2dmax]

No - I am not a big fan of the "Furbur Fix" though I have a few washers laying around.

You may have taken my point too literally. I too use the same phrase.

Back to the subject.

It is my opinion (though not everyones) that it is a problem. Some peoples opinions should have more "weight" to them because of thier experience. I don't claim that I am the most experienced but I would bet that I have more than 98% of those out there with this particular bike.

No way in hell is Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) going to freely admit there is a problem. This is why the goverment had to come up with regulatory agencies to force them to fix at least safety related issues.

This is potentially a very big issue to safety. Increased wear and potential sudden engine failure are very likely to happen (and probably has) which can cause loss of control and potential bodily injury up to and including death (kind of sounds like the wording in a recall doesn't it).

Anyway, with an issue such as this it is going to 99% of the time going to be blamed on the end user. Either he didn't maintain enough oil, or he was abusing the bike, ect....... It is very difficult to prove otherwise and only when the issue becomes more widespread and found by all types of riders, can those excuses have a better chance of being over ridden by their "common sense" thinking.

The location of the o-ring in such proximity to the oil sending unit is, in my opinion, the reason that people like Shawn had the level light come on easier then he was used to. Oil airieation is very dangerous to the lubrication system on any vehicle because the pump is going to cavitate, and get air pockets in it, which make it have to re-prime itself. Though this happens relatively quickly in time, it is very slow to the parts that desperatly want that lubrication at the moment when it most needs it.

You say that there are thousands of bikes out there with the o-ring out and they don't have the problem with it.

That may be true - but not likely for the rider who actually runs their machine to it's manufacuters limits.

I have been to countless vmax ralleys and a full 99% of them don't ride the bikes to even a fraction of it's potential. I could keep up with virtually all of them with a 250 rebel or Virago. Sure they might run it up in a couple of gears but when the guage gets close to triple digits they are crapping their pants and letting off just as quickly as they can. This even carries true to some guys who do all kinds of modifications to them. They might crack the throttle in one or two gears but they are quickly done after that.

You would be surprised at how long an engine will run with NO lubrication at all. At lower RPM's they will run a very long time. It's only at those higher loads that luburication really becomes critical. This is where people with blown o-rings have the issue. And then they think it's something they did.

Sean

 

[mikemax04]

Staying on the subject, I agree that some people's opinion should carry more weight because of their personal experience with a certain object. I also know that some "techies" on the Yahoo site don't even know the basic principles of mechanics. Not speaking about you but that is also an important factor when it comes to knowing what's really going on with this engine. Why hasn't anybody from the VMOA contacted Yamaha and asked for a clarification of this issue? Twenty one years and we are still dealing with doubt. Just curious, doesn't engine oil have an anti-foaming agent in it already? How much foaming is going on and to what extent does it aerate the oil in the crank case? Why would the oil light come on sooner with oil being dumped right back into the pan?

As far as Yamaha not needing to correct such a defect unless forced to, is way beyond anything I have found in any industry. If word got out that they skimped on a $2 fix and now the Max is unreliable and just might seize up, they would lose all their customers and any trust in their machinery. I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong and want to learn as much as possible myself, but after 21 years with the same setup and no dead bodies (engines) strewn all over the place, it's just hard for me to swallow. Hope they put a pressure gage on the new Max.

 

[Buster Hymen]

Staying on the subject, I agree that some people's opinion should carry more weight because of their personal experience with a certain object. I also know that some "techies" on the Yahoo site don't even know the basic principles of mechanics. Not speaking about you but that is also an important factor when it comes to knowing what's really going on with this engine. Why hasn't anybody from the VMOA contacted Yamaha and asked for a clarification of this issue? Twenty one years and we are still dealing with doubt. Just curious, doesn't engine oil have an anti-foaming agent in it already? How much foaming is going on and to what extent does it aerate the oil in the crank case? Why would the oil light come on sooner with oil being dumped right back into the pan?

As far as Yamaha not needing to correct such a defect unless forced to, is way beyond anything I have found in any industry. If word got out that they skimped on a $2 fix and now the Max is unreliable and just might seize up, they would lose all their customers and any trust in their machinery. I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong and want to learn as much as possible myself, but after 21 years with the same setup and no dead bodies (engines) strewn all over the place, it's just hard for me to swallow. Hope they put a pressure gage on the new Max.

I think it is a fairly common approach in the automotive field. Recalls and free fixes costs money to the manufacturer and opens up possible lawsuits. Anyone with a blown motor could now want Yamaha to pay for it if they admitted to an oring problem. Plus the oring doesn't produce any obvious problems that we know of. I'm sure it has an effect on the motor, but no one has really traced out a pattern of what the effects are. When there was arecall on some of the Busa's with a subframe that cracked at the weld, that is kind of hard for a manufacturer to hide or explain as something else. The oring is more of a subtle issue, hence easier for Yamaha to ignore.

 

[one2dmax]

I think it is a fairly common approach in the automotive field. Recalls and free fixes costs money to the manufacturer and opens up possible lawsuits. Anyone with a blown motor could now want Yamaha to pay for it if they admitted to an oring problem. Plus the oring doesn't produce any obvious problems that we know of. I'm sure it has an effect on the motor, but no one has really traced out a pattern of what the effects are. When there was arecall on some of the Busa's with a subframe that cracked at the weld, that is kind of hard for a manufacturer to hide or explain as something else. The oring is more of a subtle issue, hence easier for Yamaha to ignore.

Exactly. By admiting there is a problem they open themselves up to potential litigation. By ignoring it, they can pay for the few problems that arise and keep the outcome secret. Kind of like Pinto and Chevy pickup gas tanks. They admited in court it was cheaper to pay the victums families instead of fixing the problem.

Now to the subject:

This is going to be a fairly simple experiement for you to try. Get your garded hose out and fill up a flat container with water (say a good baking pan). Now with it full of fluid, spray your hose with pressure into the fuild and you will be able to simply push almost all of it out of the pan with the pressure. Although you are introdusing fresh fluid into the pan you are pushing more out that will stay in that pan. The oil in your oil pan is doing the same thing. It's simply being pushed away from the sensor.

Try it and tell me what you think and you'll see the simple reasoning behind my theory (and why they invented windage trays years ago for cars).

Sean Morley

 

[iowaz]

I might add, not only Yamaha failed to acknowedge a potentially serious problem such as the orange oring getting bubbled out, but Honda did a pretty nice job of hiding the major oiling problem to the upper heads of all the early 1980 V4's such as the V65 which needs an oil mod, and Kawasaki continues to produce the KLR650 of the same age as the Vmax with a major defect in the cam chain tensioner that every rider should replace. Just three examples that I still ride; all examples that can cause catastrophic to partial engine issues.

The foaming info has been interesting as it stirred a past observation/thought. I have been concerned about the foaming of the oil in the sump for some time now. That is one reason I did not remove the anti-foaming cup in the sump, as was suggested in the mid/late 90's as the web tuned up. Watching my oil site window during dyno runs it became obvious the oil in the sump looks like it being beaten into a froth as the rpms move toward redline.