Trouble starting when hot....

[Ploughy]

Evening everyone...

I'm new to the forum, I've been a member a few weeks but this is my first post. I've noticed the Max doesn't like starting on cold days and its a bit of an effort to get her going but she always starts. Anyway, today I got stuck in heavy traffic and the temp gauge started to shoot up, to combat this I turned the engine off and waited for the traffic to start moving. When it did, I turned the ignition on, the fuel pump and v boost system made its usual noises and the fan kicked in, when I pressed the start button it sounded as if the battery was dead... Is this usual for vmaxs on a hot start, I figured there wasn't enough juice in the battery as it was powering the fan as well as the lights, but surely there should be enough voltage in the battery to start the bike when this situation occurs? I haven't checked the voltage yet, I'll be doing that tomorrow, I'll do a load test aswell and make sure that the voltage is high enough but I suspect either a dead battery or a dodgy altenator. Fingers crossed its the battery!! I might be wrong and this could just be a quirk of V-maxs, if someone could clarify I'd be very grateful

The bikes a 1998 Vmax with just over 17k on the clock.

Cheers everyone

Ploughy

 

[gamorg02]

it can be a quirk, but by no means is not fixable. hows ur battery situation? most of us like a gel kind, no maintenance Odyssey. you can do some searches here to find the model #. there are other fixes too but electrical is not my specialty!

 

[jfeagins]

When it did, I turned the ignition on, the fuel pump and v boost system made its usual noises and the fan kicked in, when I pressed the start button it sounded as if the battery was dead... Is this usual for vmaxs on a hot start, I figured there wasn't enough juice in the battery as it was powering the fan as well as the lights, but surely there should be enough voltage in the battery to start the bike when this situation occurs?
Ploughy

What you describe sounds like the dreaded HOT START Starter problem. Check out this entire thread for answers.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=12367&highlight=starter+brush+plate

 

[Ploughy]

I've checked the battery with a voltmeter today and it looks like my battery is shot. Its sitting at 12.2 volts when the ignition is off, 11.80v with the ignition on and headlight running. With the engine running its sitting at 11.60v & struggling to get higher than 12.80v when giving the throttle a decent twist.

I've read a bit about the hot start issue, but the weak starts in the cold coupled with noise that occurs is definitely a lack of juice as opposed to a shot starter.

Next job is to choose which battery.... any thoughts...!?!?

 

[Redbone]

It sounds like you need to replace the battery but once you do you still want to make sure it is charging properly.
The "box of rocks" noise you hear is symptom of a bad/ going bad starter clutch. A weak battery will make it worse, an new battery may cover it up if it's not too bad, but it only prolonging the inevitable. Read up on the many posts/ step by steps and check out Sean's videos. Mine was going bad and Sean checked it out and fixed it while it was in for a few other repairs last winter and he took a video of the repair.
You can also check out the wiring from the stator to R/R to resolve any issues there too while you're have the covers off.

My suggestion is a Odyssey PC680 agm battery. Well worth the added cost, well proven within the Vmax community.

 

[MaxMidnight]

My gut feel is that you have a charging issue.

Before changing the battery you should check that the regulator/ rectifier, alternator and associate wireing are performing as they should.

If not already done solder up the splice. Have a gander here on the process.

A good resource for checking the charging system is found here (the PDF link down at the bottom of the page).

Make sure that ALL connections in the charging system are clean, particularly the earths. Also check the alternator to main loom connector as these can corrode or burn.

If everything checks out OK then you should expect to see between 13.5 & 14.8V at about 5K.

If you need to replace the battery and funds allow it then go for a Gel type (Odyssey PC680)

 

[Ploughy]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your input. Not quite sure what the "box of rocks" noise is!?!? Theres no noise that matches that description, only the sound of no juice in the battery!! The battery in the bike is the original, 12 years old and shes only racked up 17K miles, I'm pretty sure the battery is the issue but will check the charging system over the next few days (if I get time!!). Thanks for the PDF Max Midnight, I'll bear it in mind when having a look see.

 

[Redbone]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your input. Not quite sure what the "box of rocks" noise is!?!? Theres no noise that matches that description, only the sound of no juice in the battery!! The battery in the bike is the original, 12 years old and shes only racked up 17K miles, I'm pretty sure the battery is the issue but will check the charging system over the next few days (if I get time!!). Thanks for the PDF Max Midnight, I'll bear it in mind when having a look see.

Bah, Sorry about that I read too much into your description I think. Steve as usual has some excellaent suggestions and links. You also could get yo battery load tested at a battery service center/ auto parts store.
Possibly too much caffeine today. :surf:

 

[Ploughy]

Right.... quick update.....

I've taken the battery connectors off and given them a good clean as they looked a bit "rough" before reconnecting them.

Voltmeter shows 12.2v with the ignition off, ignition on with the headlight on 11.8v (not looking too good!!) I fire the engine up and the voltage rises to 12.6, sits at around this voltage for a few seconds before rising and staying at around 14.0v (give or take 0.5v depending on whether I have the hazards/full beam on). I've now turned the engine off but left the voltmeter attached to the battery, its currently sitting at 13.6v, if I'm correct and the battery is the issue, the voltage in the battery should drop considerably over the next hour or so. I've checked for a voltage leak and there doesn't seem to be one, with the voltage measured at idle, I'm pretty sure the regulator/rectifier and alternator are performing as they should. I'll check the battery voltage again on 30 minutes once with the ignition off and once with it on, and again 30 minutes after that.

If I'm right and the battery is dead and doesn't hold a charge, I'll give it a charge over night up to full power and check the voltage again after a decent ride tomorrow. The battery might be savable but as the alternator is only designed to maintain a charged battery and not charge a dead one this is the only way I can check of its shot to bits or not. Any thoughts....?

 

[Ploughy]

hmmph....

I'm a bit stumped now.... Battery is showing a decent voltage after standing for an hour, its showing 12.78v even after having the ignition on for part of it. However..... when I come to start the bike now its refusing to turn over... the lights are working fine and not dim at all, even with the indicators going, brake light and full beam on I'm still registering 12.5v. tuening all additional power draws off, all I have on is the ignition and headlight, I wait until the pump and vboost make their noises, try to turn her over.... and all of a sudden I'm getting flat battery symptons.... All the lights go off on the dash and she makes a flat battery noise..... I'm really stumped guys, I was convinced it was the battery but its showing a half decent voltage..... HELP!!!!

 

[[email protected]]

Ya, but what kind of voltage drop are you getting when you try and start it? Jump it from a NON-Running vehicle and see how that goes.

 

[Ploughy]

The battery is currently on charge..... I'll update tomorrow..!!

 

[MaxMidnight]

A battery showing 13.6 V after it has been charged (bike the bikes alternator or a battery charger) is normal - it has what is known as a 'surface charge' - have a read here for a full explanation.

If left over night or you leave the lights on for a couple of minutes it will dissipate and what you are left with is the true voltage of the battery.

In a fully charged battery this is normally around 12.6 volts.

To check the battery properly you would need to do a heavy discharge test, which any competent battery vendor should be able to do for you.

 

[Rick52]

I have had a similar problem. Battery shows good charge, charging system indicates 14.5 to 14.75 voltage and one ride and back and it wont turn over. Newer HO alternator and R/R heavy ground wire and starter wire, all wires direct fit with no harness plugs and a two years new Odyessy. Took battery to be checked, only registered 100cca vs spec 230 and one cell dead. Sooo, today I bought a Sears Die Hard Gold 18L-BS AGM, knocked out the back of the battery box. Will see how this works. rick rash

 

[yukonerdave]

I really think you should reconsider taking the starter apart. At the very least, inspect your starter wire very closely for a bad connection. Your symptoms sound identical to what I was getting before rebuilding it. Good luck man

 

[Ploughy]

BAttery is fully charged and I've fitted a trickle charger this morning, fingers crossed.... I'm pretty sure the starter motor is not the problem at all, theres no clicking noises from the solenoid when trying to turn over, its simply lack of juice, I'll see how the charged battery runs, if this doesn't fix things, I'll clean all the connections in the charging system and if that fails, I'll replace the battery then onto the r/r and finally the alterator......

 

[jfeagins]

I have had a similar problem. Battery shows good charge, charging system indicates 14.5 to 14.75 voltage and one ride and back and it wont turn over. Newer HO alternator and R/R heavy ground wire and starter wire, all wires direct fit with no harness plugs and a two years new Odyessy. Took battery to be checked, only registered 100cca vs spec 230 and one cell dead. Sooo, today I bought a Sears Die Hard Gold 18L-BS AGM, knocked out the back of the battery box. Will see how this works. rick rash

Rick, how you doing there buddy? How's that Gen II doing?

You won't regret the big battery box mod. The extra cca's are unbeatable and, I think the bigger, more readily available batteries run less expensive than our smaller OEM Vmax size.

 

[Rick52]

Absolutely. I paid $89.95 for the SEars Die Hard. Fits like a glove, snug. LOL I also bought a used 2005 vmax starter just in case I needed it. Figured if I dont need the starter I can resell to an older Vmax owner as a 4 brush upgrade. I took the recently bought used starter to my local alternator/starter repair shop and asked them to test for okay. Ha! Ground and Hot wire to the starter and ran for about 3 seconds, said sounds good. What a joke.

rick rash