1997 V Max not charging

[Miles Long]

Vmax bonefire imminent !

Okay guys I am back again. We ran the bike until the fan came on and when the fan shut of again with the engine still running (but starting to run lumpy), we disconnected the wiring block and tested the three wires coming from the stator. With the engine running the reading on all three wires was identical, from 20v AC at 1000rpm up to 52v at 2000rpm. Also switched the bike off and did the two stationery tests that are detailed from the guys here, and in the flow charts posted here on the forum. All readings check out fine!

I'd treat this info as a good thing - at least now you know the problem is NOT the stator - the most expensive and hardest to replace component.
Most likely something very simple. Eventually you and your bro, or someone on this forum, will stumble across the cause.
Still too early to take the bike to the dealer, commit suicide, or torch the bike.
Hang in there!unk:

 

[Miles Long]

Grasping at straws here -
Is this a new to your brother '97, which had the charging problems at time of purchase, or did it develop the problem while he owned it?
If the former, did the previous owner do any electrical mods?
If the bike is left off with a fully charged battery,(12.7-12.9 v.) does the voltage decrease on it's own after several days of not running? If so, have you performed a battery leakage test?
Do the volts start to drop only after the fan kicks in, or is there a gradual decrease even before this point?
Did you do a R/R diode test after the bike has warmed up, and the voltage begins to falter?
Did you clean the main fuse terminals, and replace the fuse with a new one? (should be a spare 30 amp in the holder)
Cheers!

 

[sdt354]

Here goes guys, firstly thanks for all the help and advice.

The new battery load tested perfectly which i hoped it wouldn't !

Back home we followed all the diagrams for testing the stator and r/r again and everything is as it should be.

With the battery now also tested we were getting desperate and uncovered a dastardly plan.

We have a friend's Suzuki GSXR 1000 in the shed so we checked it's charging output and it is 14.4V at the battery even with all lights and stuff switched on.

So as you do...... we stole his r/r .

Knowing the Suzuki was charging perfectly, we then fitted the new Vmax r/r on the GSXR and low and behold the reading at the battery was down in the 12v range... Faulty vmax R/R ?????

We painstakingly wired the Suzuki r/r onto the Vmax. Bollocks.... the charging was still crap. Faulty vmax stator????

We were left scratching our heads thinking that an r/r should be the same for all bikes and wondering then if the suzuki r/r wasn't compatible!

After discussing a double suicide scheme and being two cowards, we had coffee and put the bikes back together and went out and fixed the shed roof....... lots of hammering in nails and sawing and more manly stuff made up for our motorcycle repair failure.

My Bro had decided to do what he was trying to avoid, save up to pay someone a lot of money to fix what we hoped to do ourselves..... BOLLOCKS!

When swapping the r/r's were they grounded properly?

 

[mwilson410]

Thanks guys. Hey Miles...... my bro has owned the bike for 4 years and it was pampered before it came to us. It still has only 17,000 miles on it, and never gave any trouble at all and when he had no car the Max was his daily ride and was faultless.

The problem started when he wanted a clutch upgrade and fitted a new Barnett clutch. The side stand safety system wasn't operating properly so he ordered a new electrical part which cured that problem. The bike is electrically standard apart from a larger headlight from the company Exactrep and it still has it's completely standard H4 bulb. It has heated grips but we have disconnected them.

After the clutch replacement he took the bike out for a spin and had to be rescued. The battery which was only two years old was drained. We then checked the charging and that's how the story began.

The new battery can happily sit for a week and still show a reading of 12.6 volts, so once again we assumed that there was no discharging going on.

From cold starting the voltage at the battery reads minimum 13.5v and up to a max of 14.2 v at 2000rpm. This remains constant even with the headlight on, until that fan kicks in. The voltage immediatley starts to drop into the 12 - 13v region. After the first running of the fan the voltage comes back to almost normal but as the fan kicks on and off for 2nd, 3rd and fourth time, the bike engine is stumbling the volts are 12.5v approx and eventually dies. Once she completely cools and is restarted, the reading at the battery is back to a healthy 14v and the bike runs sweet!

Yes we did clean and change out the fuses. We also ran her with the headlight fuse out to see if we saved a few volts, she might overcome the fan but it made no difference.

I am not sure Miles if we did and R/R diode test when warm, we've been round in circles so many times i have forgotten what we've done. Hopefully eliminating the stator made us think that the new r/r was faulty but didn't know how to perform a test that would be specific to the r/r and be a relaible finding!

If i hadn't sold my Max it would be so easy to swap and eliminate faulty parts!


My bro is so frustated, he was mumbling about buying another new r/r.

On a brighter note, my bro asked me how long have i known Miles Long, and how come he has my picture as his avatar and then almost pissed himself laughing.
Explanation..... I got new dentures and they bloody hurt so I haven't been wearing them and have no front teeth and had just grown a beard. Except for my bald head the likeness is pretty good...lol


sdt354....... When we tried using the Suzuki r/r we ran the wires directly to the battery and assumed the earth was adaquate

 

[davidon]

I would start looking into the starter circuit cutoff relay. I had some weird stuff with the motor cutting out while riding when hot. Turned out to be one of the relays in the circuit had an internal short which only occurred when hot. It could not be duplicated in tests. I would see if you can bypass some the the relays or swap for known good ones. By the way, off topic but just saw SLF recently

 

[Miles Long]

Thanks guys. Hey Miles...... my bro has owned the bike for 4 years and it was pampered before it came to us. It still has only 17,000 miles on it, and never gave any trouble at all and when he had no car the Max was his daily ride and was faultless.

The problem started when he wanted a clutch upgrade and fitted a new Barnett clutch. The side stand safety system wasn't operating properly so he ordered a new electrical part which cured that problem. The bike is electrically standard apart from a larger headlight from the company Exactrep and it still has it's completely standard H4 bulb. It has heated grips but we have disconnected them.

After the clutch replacement he took the bike out for a spin and had to be rescued. The battery which was only two years old was drained. We then checked the charging and that's how the story began.

The new battery can happily sit for a week and still show a reading of 12.6 volts, so once again we assumed that there was no discharging going on.

From cold starting the voltage at the battery reads minimum 13.5v and up to a max of 14.2 v at 2000rpm. This remains constant even with the headlight on, until that fan kicks in. The voltage immediatley starts to drop into the 12 - 13v region. After the first running of the fan the voltage comes back to almost normal but as the fan kicks on and off for 2nd, 3rd and fourth time, the bike engine is stumbling the volts are 12.5v approx and eventually dies. Once she completely cools and is restarted, the reading at the battery is back to a healthy 14v and the bike runs sweet!

Yes we did clean and change out the fuses. We also ran her with the headlight fuse out to see if we saved a few volts, she might overcome the fan but it made no difference.

I am not sure Miles if we did and R/R diode test when warm, we've been round in circles so many times i have forgotten what we've done. Hopefully eliminating the stator made us think that the new r/r was faulty but didn't know how to perform a test that would be specific to the r/r and be a relaible finding!

If i hadn't sold my Max it would be so easy to swap and eliminate faulty parts!


My bro is so frustated, he was mumbling about buying another new r/r.

On a brighter note, my bro asked me how long have i known Miles Long, and how come he has my picture as his avatar and then almost pissed himself laughing.
Explanation..... I got new dentures and they bloody hurt so I haven't been wearing them and have no front teeth and had just grown a beard. Except for my bald head the likeness is pretty good...lol


sdt354....... When we tried using the Suzuki r/r we ran the wires directly to the battery and assumed the earth was adaquate

Hmmm.....I wonder......do you suppose.........that the root of the problem is........................
The fan?????????
Does it turn freely? In particular after it has cycled on and off, to the point of the bike faltering? It may be in a seizure mode, but not bad enough to pop the 10 amp fuse.
If your meter is capable of reading on-line amps, the fuse connectors would be the easiest access to the positive feed wire.
You could also pull the fuse, and set up a portable A.C. fan in front of the radiator, to keep the coolant temp. manageable. Just be sure to keep an eye on the temperature gauge!
I'm still betting that your problem is something very simple. If not the fan, do that diode check after the bike stumbles. Like the fan, another easy component to eliminate(at least the function of the diodes themselves) Cheers!

p.s., about my avatar - I've been meaning to "upgrade" the pic, to a more recent photo. That's my high school graduation photo, taken when I was much younger - 39 -and better looking. Unfortunately, I have not escaped the ravages of the passing years, so our forum members may be shocked at how "worn-out" I look now. I'm not sure that I want to subjugate all the fine folks to this type of torture.
In any event, my dear wife tells me that it's the inner beauty:ummm: that count the most. In fact, she forces herself to tell me that several times a day.

 

[jfeagins]

If the R/R maintains an adequate charge UNTIL the fan kicks in, but won't maintain the voltage while it is running, I'm going with the R/R not doing it's job correctly. I feel the R/R is either bad, or it is improperly grounded and cannot do it's job because of it.

 

[Bill Seward]

+1 on the bad r/r or bad ground... Watch out for the 3 wire connector coming from the stator. A bad connection here will play holy hell with the charging system. If you still have the plug in the circuit, very carefully examine it for any sign of corrosion or melting. A corroded connector here can really get hot enough to melt!

 

[mwilson410]

Thanks again guys, my bro will be here at my place on Friday. He doesn't have a work space so his bikes live at my house:eusa_dance:.

We will endeavour to look further !

Michael

 

[D-Max2012]

From cold starting the voltage at the battery reads minimum 13.5v and up to a max of 14.2 v at 2000rpm. This remains constant even with the headlight on, until that fan kicks in. The voltage immediatley starts to drop into the 12 - 13v region. After the first running of the fan the voltage comes back to almost normal but as the fan kicks on and off for 2nd, 3rd and fourth time, the bike engine is stumbling the volts are 12.5v approx and eventually dies. Once she completely cools and is restarted, the reading at the battery is back to a healthy 14v and the bike runs sweet!

Has anyone suggested that he might be seeing a problem with the Pulse Pickup coil?
Let's try to remember that by the time the fan kicks in, the engine is now hot.
ALSO: If he did not put a battery charger on the bike between the time it died hot, and restarting again after cool down, the battery would still be dead and not able to start the bike again. It sounds like the battery cranked and started up fine after it cooled down.

When that pulse pickup starts acting up, it starts up fine, then as it heats up, it makes the bike start to stumble then die out.
Another big clue: It will not start again until the bike cools down. Sounds like what happened to my 91.

Do an ohms check at the pickup connector under the seat (two wire connection that leads down the left side of the bike behind the shift cover plate). Do this test AFTER the bike dies out on it own. If you're reading an Open Circuit, you'll need a replacement.

 

[D-Max2012]

The problem started when he wanted a clutch upgrade and fitted a new Barnett clutch. The side stand safety system wasn't operating properly so he ordered a new electrical part which cured that problem. The bike is electrically standard apart from a larger headlight from the company Exactrep and it still has it's completely standard H4 bulb. It has heated grips but we have disconnected them.

I know that many would not look at this as a potential problem because this statement above.

My 91 failed on the mechanic while he test rode my new tires. Go figure.

Have an extra spark plug ready, and when the bike dies out, pull one of the plug wires, connect the extra plug and ground it to the engine, then crank it a couple of times. If you don't see a spark jump across that gap, it sounds like the same problem I had.

When I got my Max, I started with StarVMax forum. I didn't know about vmaxfourm.net yet.

This was my experience and they were very helpful in isolating the issue (link below).

hope it helps you too.
http://www.starvmax.com/kunena/28-help-desk/173491-91-vmx12-question/mode-replies

 

[mwilson410]

Hey guys thanks again for the input. I'm afraid the bike got totally ignored this weekend we did other stuff instead.

My ravings maybe a bit vague sometimes and I apologize for that.:icon_rolleyes:

when I mentioned that the bike runs rough and eventually dies, this is at tickover with the fan on. When it dies it will restart without any problem, but It will still run rough.. but will restart each time!


we don't seem to have a problem with hot starting, what I should have said is, when the bike is hot and running rough, the charging reading at the battery drop to 12v and when the bike cooled down the charging readings all return to normal and the bike will run sweet again.

When the bike is hot with the fan on and running rough and about to stall at idle revs, adding some more revs will keep the engine from stalling but it just sounds like the spark is to weak to keep her running sweetly.:ummm:

 

[Miles Long]

When the bike is hot with the fan on and running rough and about to stall at idle revs, adding some more revs will keep the engine from stalling but it just sounds like the spark is to weak to keep her running sweetly.:ummm:[/QUOTE]
That's normal. The CDI needs a healthy voltage, 12+V, or the bike will start to miss when idling. Many owners have experienced this, including me.
When it happened to my bike, I had not yet installed an on-board voltmeter, so I thought the idle jets were clogging up. Needless to say, doing the "Shotgun" and "Peashooter" cleaning methods accomplished nada.
Anyway, turns out my battery was on it's way out. A fresh one took care of the problem.
Hopefully you and The Bro will have some spare time soon to wrench on the bike. I'm really curious to know what happens when you take the radiator fan out of the equation.
Cheers!

 

[dtoebaert-5311]

Hey guys thanks again for the input. I'm afraid the bike got totally ignored this weekend we did other stuff instead.

My ravings maybe a bit vague sometimes and I apologize for that.:icon_rolleyes:

when I mentioned that the bike runs rough and eventually dies, this is at tickover with the fan on. When it dies it will restart without any problem, but It will still run rough.. but will restart each time!


we don't seem to have a problem with hot starting, what I should have said is, when the bike is hot and running rough, the charging reading at the battery drop to 12v and when the bike cooled down the charging readings all return to normal and the bike will run sweet again.

When the bike is hot with the fan on and running rough and about to stall at idle revs, adding some more revs will keep the engine from stalling but it just sounds like the spark is to weak to keep her running sweetly.:ummm:

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but doesn`t it sound more like there`s a problem with the fan? Some "partial" short in the fan motor windings or even the relay misbehaving? Do you have the problem when you simple disconnect the fan? (plenty of time to switch the motor off before it really overheats...just see what happens if the fan doesn`t kick in)

 

[HyperPete]

I asked, much earlier in the thread, if the OP had run the wires from the RR directly to the battery. He replied that he ran the positive to the battery, but NOT the ground.

I would revisit this with both the hot and the ground run directly to the battery. It's easy to do, and I expect that it will resolve the issue.

 

[jfeagins]

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but doesn`t it sound more like there`s a problem with the fan? Some "partial" short in the fan motor windings or even the relay misbehaving? Do you have the problem when you simple disconnect the fan? (plenty of time to switch the motor off before it really overheats...just see what happens if the fan doesn`t kick in)

No. Completely COMMON for that itty bitty fan to pull enough amps while running, even when it's spinning smoothly, to drag our Vmax's pisspoor charging system to it's proverbial knees.

But it would be easy enough to reach down and spin the blades around (KEY OFF) to be sure it is spinning freely.

 

[Hypocycloid3]

Hi guys, need help got 97 vmax which is not charging, new stator, new r/r, new battery, still not charging. Checked all readings on new parts (all good), getting 16 volts at stator plug as soon as I connect the r/r plug the readings at the plug drop to 10 volts at idle speed, and stays at that even when bike is reved, the bike starts and runs, but as soon as it warms up it runs like ****, fan comes on bike stops. Can anybody help me before I pull out whats left of my hair. Many Thanks David.

Did you ever get a solution to this issue? I am wresting with the same scenario on my 94.

 

[alorio1]

I don't know if the issue got resolved, but the stator is AC volts and should be around 50V on each leg. After it goes thru RR it should be atleast 13.8-14.4 volts DC @ 2500 RPMs.


Have you read this thread?

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=19108

 

[Hypocycloid3]

I don't know if the issue got resolved, but the stator is AC volts and should be around 50V on each leg. After it goes thru RR it should be atleast 13.8-14.4 volts DC @ 2500 RPMs.


Have you read this thread?

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=19108

YES & Thanks! This thread was a lifesaver after trying to follow the generic fault fining flow chart. Found it yesterday and it is what lead me to believe my stator needs replaced. (I am getting Zero resistance across all three phase wires)