Abnormally stiff stock suspension

[Rusty McNeil]

Someone said that the 5" was with the forks compressed?

Don't do that; if you do use the inch method it is with the forks extended and the front wheel off the ground. I seem to remember mine being around 4.5" to 5", not sure since I do it by CC's now.

If your oil level is too high it's going to make it REALLY stiff, and VERY limited travel, you can't compress a fluid.

The amount of air also provides a progressive action since the air get's harder to compress in a non-linear fashion as pressure goes up.

If the level is right and the per-load is right, the next step would be to go to a lighter oil.

I run 10wt in mine and about 1.25" of pre-load, with RaceTech springs and emulators. And no PSI added.......it's really not needed with a good setup....

 

[Ridin Dirty]

check


manuals say 10w, which i used. i thought weight had more of an influence on rebound dampening then compression dampening--like lots more to the point where compression dampening was neglected.


ugh, that shouldve been obviously after some of the funnin' around i was doing. COOL Thanks.

As the forks compress, the oil is forced through the emulators. A lighter weight oil flows through the emulators easier, making compression dampening softer. Since your already using 10 wt oil, your left with adjusting the emulators ( or maybe 5 wt oil).

You mentioned that your using Progressives springs with Racetech emulators. Since the Racetech emulators are designed to work with Racetech springs, I wonder if this could be affecting the set up.

 

[ninjaneer]

Someone said that the 5" was with the forks compressed?

Don't do that; if you do use the inch method it is with the forks extended and the front wheel off the ground. I seem to remember mine being around 4.5" to 5", not sure since I do it by CC's now.

If your oil level is too high it's going to make it REALLY stiff, and VERY limited travel, you can't compress a fluid.

The amount of air also provides a progressive action since the air get's harder to compress in a non-linear fashion as pressure goes up.

If the level is right and the per-load is right, the next step would be to go to a lighter oil.

I run 10wt in mine and about 1.25" of pre-load, with RaceTech springs and emulators. And no PSI added.......it's really not needed with a good setup....

sorry saml01 for the hijack.

i'm curious. racetech says to measure your oil with everything out except the emulator. using the level method, it seems to me that i can achieve the proper amount "per the book". but for me, it would seem that i wouldn't be able to get the correct amount as stated by the manual if i used the cc method. right? don't you measure out the oil first before pouring it in? or did you put the emulator in a measuring cup and then pour the oil in to account for its displacement? not trying to discredit you, if your setup works, fantastic! i'm at the stage of tailoring my ride, which will obviously diverge from the manual. just trying to see if i can use your technique to achieve what i want.

what do you mean 1.25" of preload? how is measurement taken? forgive me, i just do what the installation steps say and by using these steps i never came up with that number. the closet to a 1.25" measurement was the 1.5" of thread at the top of the stachion.

progressive said no PSI, so i have no PSI at the moment.

As the forks compress, the oil is forced through the emulators. A lighter weight oil flows through the emulators easier, making compression dampening softer. Since your already using 10 wt oil, your left with adjusting the emulators ( or maybe 5 wt oil).

cool thanks

You mentioned that your using Progressives springs with Racetech emulators. Since the Racetech emulators are designed to work with Racetech springs, I wonder if this could be affecting the set up.

it's not a pioneering setup, i've read and heard others install this configuration with satisfying results. but like you said, there probably isn't much analysis to fully understand the dynamics.

 

[ninjaneer]

 

[Ridin Dirty]

sorry saml01 for the hijack.

i'm curious. racetech says to measure your oil with everything out except the emulator. using the level method, it seems to me that i can achieve the proper amount "per the book". but for me, it would seem that i wouldn't be able to get the correct amount as stated by the manual if i used the cc method. right? don't you measure out the oil first before pouring it in? or did you put the emulator in a measuring cup and then pour the oil in to account for its displacement? not trying to discredit you, if your setup works, fantastic! i'm at the stage of tailoring my ride, which will obviously diverge from the manual. just trying to see if i can use your technique to achieve what i want.

what do you mean 1.25" of preload? how is measurement taken? forgive me, i just do what the installation steps say and by using these steps i never came up with that number. the closet to a 1.25" measurement was the 1.5" of thread at the top of the stachion.

progressive said no PSI, so i have no PSI at the moment.


cool thanks

it's not a pioneering setup, i've read and heard others install this configuration with satisfying results. but like you said, there probably isn't much analysis to fully understand the dynamics.

I would try the 5wt oil, although you will get more front end dive when you brake. It's a trade off. At this point your fine tuning for personal preference and riding style. If it seems to get to soft, you can add a little more oil ( 15 cc's at a time) , decreasing the air space inside the tube. If you overfill too much, it'll stiffen up real fast, so do it incrementally.

 

[MikeTD3]

To the O.P.........Progressive springs are a simple and much needed improvement over the stock springs. As previously stated, the stock springs are down right scary when braking.

 

[ninjaneer]

I would try the 5wt oil, although you will get more front end dive when you brake. It's a trade off. At this point your fine tuning for personal preference and riding style. If it seems to get to soft, you can add a little more oil ( 15 cc's at a time) , decreasing the air space inside the tube. If you overfill too much, it'll stiffen up real fast, so do it incrementally.

i like how the bike is currently resisting brake dives, so perhaps messin with the emulator? i dropped them in out-of-box. i shoulda counted the turns, but i recall reading that they are either 3 or 4 turns. 2 turns is described as "for cruising" and 4 as "for racing". i think i'll bring them down to 2. what d'ya think? also i know that blue springs are something like 40 lbs and yellow are something like 60 lbs. but what does that all mean and how do they affect the ride?

To the O.P.........Progressive springs are a simple and much needed improvement over the stock springs. As previously stated, the stock springs are down right scary when braking.

+1 on the Progressive springs

Just so it's clear, the stock springs are progressive rate springs. when folks talk about upgrading, they are talking about upgrading to a thicker, heavier progressive rate springs made by the Progressive Suspension company.

 

[vmaxcruzer]

Saml01

I made a big mistake in my prior reply. My spacers were actually even with the top of the fork tubes. After screwing down the end caps, it gave me about 1 inch of preload. I used 630 cc's of 15wt oil( earlier forks probably require less cc's). I do remember the stock spacers popping up above the top of the tubes, when I did the dis-assembly. If your confident the springs are stock, perhaps the oil level is the first thing to check. If anything the stock springs should be too soft and bottom out easily, not overly stiff.

I was gonna say that's way too much, I have just under a 1/4" over the top of the tube with race tech. I fugured I could always cut it later if I wanted less. (Thanks unk:Sean)

 

[Ridin Dirty]

i like how the bike is currently resisting brake dives, so perhaps messin with the emulator? i dropped them in out-of-box. i shoulda counted the turns, but i recall reading that they are either 3 or 4 turns. 2 turns is described as "for cruising" and 4 as "for racing". i think i'll bring them down to 2. what d'ya think? also i know that blue springs are something like 40 lbs and yellow are something like 60 lbs. but what does that all mean and how do they affect the ride?





+1 on the Progressive springs

Just so it's clear, the stock springs are progressive rate springs. when folks talk about upgrading, they are talking about upgrading to a thicker, heavier progressive rate springs made by the Progressive Suspension company.

Give it a try. Less turns on the emulators, allows the oil to flow through easier, reducing the dampening. Either way your softening the dampening and will get a little more front end dive, but if the springs are stiff enough the front end will recover quickly.

 

[Saml01]

You must have not understood Sean(cuz is he ever wrong?) because about an inch popping up is correct, my stock spacer I just replaced is a little over 9 3/4" long.
(quote from old Sean post "The most critical part is the total preload when you get it together. I usually shoot for 1")

Maybe yours is longer because your bike is newer, but my spacer is 5 1/4" long.

sorry saml01 for the hijack.

Its not OK.:icon_rolleyes:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

sorry saml01 for the hijack.

i'm curious. racetech says to measure your oil with everything out except the emulator. using the level method, it seems to me that i can achieve the proper amount "per the book". but for me, it would seem that i wouldn't be able to get the correct amount as stated by the manual if i used the cc method. right? don't you measure out the oil first before pouring it in? or did you put the emulator in a measuring cup and then pour the oil in to account for its displacement? not trying to discredit you, if your setup works, fantastic! i'm at the stage of tailoring my ride, which will obviously diverge from the manual. just trying to see if i can use your technique to achieve what i want.

what do you mean 1.25" of preload? how is measurement taken? forgive me, i just do what the installation steps say and by using these steps i never came up with that number. the closet to a 1.25" measurement was the 1.5" of thread at the top of the stachion.

progressive said no PSI, so i have no PSI at the moment.


cool thanks

it's not a pioneering setup, i've read and heard others install this configuration with satisfying results. but like you said, there probably isn't much analysis to fully understand the dynamics.

I'll try to take 'em one at a time, beginning with the statement that fine tuning these setups will for sure get you off the beaten path and that that are several answers to any problem as well....

When I said, "don't do that" I merely meant -don't use the "level-inch" method when the forks are compressed, using it is fine, but the references I've sen for inches is measured with the forks extended unless I have completely lost my mind, which is possible on some days : ), and yes you are correct that the racetech I.B. says with some of the pieces not in place. In actuality I used thier method exactly, and then fine tuned it from there, and then ended up going back in and measuring the level I had that was working for me and recording it as a baseline, that was with the springs and emulators in place but not the pre-load spacer....In truth it doesn't really matter whether you use CC's or inches as long as it consistent and makes sense to you........

Pre-load; my pre-load measurent was the amount of Spring compression that took place when installing the top cap with the front wheel off the ground, I.E. The amount I had to compress the spring to engage the cap threads, plus the amount of compression that took place while tightening the cap.....this was after several different variations of set up in which I can't remember if I have more or less pre-load than the starting point..........

I also have 1" lowering spacers in the bottom of the forks which probably made my whole setup different, and for sure was against racetechs recommendations, I'll pull them out maybe some day, but the reason they are still in there is due to the fact that the reallly nice Works shocks I bought for cheap are about and 1" shorter than stock and I wanted to pull the front down to match...didn't want the handling to get to wierd, and 1" wasn't low enough to cause me any clearance isssues so far......

Once you get it all together you can then decide how much to adjust the pre-load to fine tune the static sag and race sag, which are sag numbers from fully extended, bike wieght, and bike and rider wieght if I remember correctly.....I've forgotten the details of this since I did it but I know I ended up changing the pre-load spacer length several times getting the sag to be whatever the recommended percentage of total travel that race tech or whatever resource it was that I found was recommending.....once I was done I felt that the overall stiffness was a little much so I ended up going to a 10 wt oil and it all feels OK to me now....
I have no idea where my emulators are set, I remember taking them out and adjusting them several times, and "think" they are set looser than the racetech baseline....??

Ultimately how you set it up is really up to you and how it feels to you...My only "don't do that" opinion was that using the inch method with forks comepressed or not extended is probably going to send you in the wrong direction unless the inch number you are using is one you came up with your self using that method, since most numbers others and the manuals are quoting are for the forks extended.....

hope this helps..

 

[ninjaneer]

the inch method with forks comepressed or not extended is probably going to send you in the wrong direction

WOAH! i better go revisit this aspect of the job b/c, that is exactly what i did--measured with forks compressed.

thanks rusty. u def deserve ur award nomination!

 

[ninjaneer]

Its not OK.:icon_rolleyes:

hehehe. ok ok. i'll give the thread back. :whistlin:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Sorry for being part of the crew that hi-jacked your thread.:biglaugh:

Hi-jacking award was the first one I got several years ago...my bad...

 

[Maxine]

Per progressive instructions:
"Oil level is the distance
from the top of the
fork tube to the top of
the oil with the fork
completely collapsed
and the fork spring removed"

Just to set the record strait. if you measure with the forks extended and no springs installed you will have way too much oil in the forks.
http://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/forkSprings/3055.pdf

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Per progressive instructions:
"Oil level is the distance
from the top of the
fork tube to the top of
the oil with the fork
completely collapsed
and the fork spring removed"

Just to set the record strait. if you measure with the forks extended and no springs installed you will have way too much oil in the forks.
http://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/forkSprings/3055.pdf

Dang, I was just having a PM session with Ninjaneer about this,

I know I did mine per racetechs instructions with slight variations but thought it was with the forks extended....

I was WRONG :bang head:and please disregard my earleir comments about doing it with the forks extended

And thank you for enlightening me, much appreciated!

Rusty

 

[ninjaneer]

sorry saml01 just one more hijack, but i feel that my next statement will help future upgraders!

ahhh crap! i've got too much oil. i shoulda studied the install notes better.

"If your manual specifies an oil level higher than 5.5" (140mm) set the oil level at 5.5" (140mm)."
​

if i had my head out of my ass i might have realized that 4.83" is greater than 5.5". so in short i measured the level as one should, but i filled up the stanchion until it reached 4.83" from the top instead of 5.5". i have over an inch of too much fluid. this would explain some if not all of what i'm experiencing.

 

[m-cman]

Dang, I was just having a PM session with Ninjaneer about this,

I know I did mine per racetechs instructions with slight variations but thought it was with the forks extended....

I was WRONG :bang head:and please disregard my earleir comments about doing it with the forks extended

And thank you for enlightening me, much appreciated!

Rusty

Maybe Progressive and Race Tech have different instructions?

 

[sarchin]

Here is Progressive's pdf that explains a little bit about the oil level and why.

 

[Saml01]

sorry saml01 just one more hijack, but i feel that my next statement will help future upgraders!

ahhh crap! i've got too much oil. i shoulda studied the install notes better.

"If your manual specifies an oil level higher than 5.5" (140mm) set the oil level at 5.5" (140mm)."
​

if i had my head out of my ass i might have realized that 4.83" is greater than 5.5". so in short i measured the level as one should, but i filled up the stanchion until it reached 4.83" from the top instead of 5.5". i have over an inch of too much fluid. this would explain some if not all of what i'm experiencing.

Nah dude, I was kidding, dont worry about it. This is good info that applies to me too. I have progressive springs on the way.