Clutch killing me

[train460]

Wifes 85. Didnt have a whole lot of lever in the clutch and hard to get into neutral. Replacing the discs. Have done this a couple times. On my bike over the years.
Pull cover. Then 6 bolts on ring. Big spring, clutch plate with spring guide thingee. Pull all the fibers and metals. Pulled off the wire spring and the 2 little guides and half disc.
Bead blast metals. Install full fiber. Metal, fiber metal etc ending with fiber. 8 fibers and 7 metals. Clutch plate with the guide, spring and 6 bolt ring.
Cover on. Start bike
Good handle feel
Pull handle, put in gear release handle and nothing. No movement.
Now i have taken this off and verified this setup 6 times. I even put the setup back to stock with the half fiber 2 guides, metal, wire then fibers and metals. Same thing.
Once all is tight notice some slight movement in the discs at rest. Pulling clutch handle moves out the plate abit.
Again i have pulled these 6 times now, verified etc. Still a little movement in the discs at rest am told once everything is tight the disc needs to be tight with no movement.
Thoughts?

 

[blaxmax]

Did you get all the plates, clutch basket and pressure plate lined up? Maybe touch the lever while it was open?
On the earlier models it is best to change out the segment to the newer one-only about $30 and your labor.
Check out yukonerdave's thread on placement of putting it all back inline.

http://v4musclebike.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22229

 

[Dorney]

Just a thought is the clutch push rod in right ?

 

[train460]

Just a thought is the clutch push rod in right ?

Yup. Didnt pull it out altho did push on it to make sure its snug.
Again once the plate is snug against the boss there is a slight gap, like i could add another metal which sits on the teeth but another fiber is at the very edge.

 

[train460]

Did you get all the plates, clutch basket and pressure plate lined up? Maybe touch the lever while it was open?
On the earlier models it is best to change out the segment to the newer one-only about $30 and your labor.
Check out yukonerdave's thread on placement of putting it all back inline.

http://v4musclebike.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22229

Yup. Made sure the plate is lined up as it is supposed with the little hole match the same on the basket.
I have pulled discs, plates, 6 differant times to make sure.
My last resort is next week pulling the cover on my bike and look at it.
Pisses me off tho. When i pulled it off nothing out of the ordinary.
These are easy to do up till now

 

[Fire-medic]

With the clutch cover off, what happens when you pull the clutch lever? (clutch pack completely assembled) The diaphragm spring should compress, and the pressure plate should move a bit out to allow the plates (friction discs) to lose their grip. Without looking at the manual, I'd say maybe about 1/8"?

If the lever doesn't release the pressure plate, it sounds like you need to bleed the system, and reverse-bleeding it w/a large capacity syringe connected to the slave cyl is what makes it easiest for me.

 

[train460]

With the clutch cover off, what happens when you pull the clutch lever? (clutch pack completely assembled) The diaphragm spring should compress, and the pressure plate should move a bit out to allow the plates (friction discs) to lose their grip. Without looking at the manual, I'd say maybe about 1/8"?

If the lever doesn't release the pressure plate, it sounds like you need to bleed the system, and reverse-bleeding it w/a large capacity syringe connected to the slave cyl is what makes it easiest for me.

When i pull the clutch handle the plate moves out abit as it should.
The clutch lever feels good. Not soft.
Still think the problem is the discs and plates are not tight. They are abit loose like its missing a plate but its not.

 

[D-Max2012]

I was wondering the same thing as Fire-Medic, being that I just changed the front brake lines. Read that the clutch is the same way.
I thought I was done with the brakes. Almost couldn't stop because it felt OK in the driveway, but once on the road, it was reviled that there still air in the system.
After bleeding it multiple times, using a vacuum pump to assist, it's been grabbing better than stock. Now with the clutch, I would think it would not engage correctly if any air was in the system..
Forgive me,, Just thinking out loud here

Hey, Good luck with the fix..

 

[train460]

But i never went into the slave or master cylinder system.

 

[Fire-medic]

If you believe you have assembled it correctly then I would re-bleed it again. You may have an air bubble somewhere, perhaps at a junction fitting. Reverse-bleeding forces any air bubbles up to the handlebar master cyl.

When i pull the clutch handle the plate moves out abit as it should.
The clutch lever feels good. Not soft.
Still think the problem is the discs and plates are not tight. They are abit loose like its missing a plate but its not.

 

[train460]

If you believe you have assembled it correctly then I would re-bleed it again. You may have an air bubble somewhere, perhaps at a junction fitting. Reverse-bleeding forces any air bubbles up to the handlebar master cyl.

I guess I am not quite understanding how the clutch works. I don't understand how the slave cylinder/master system would affect the plates. I have replaced the slave cylinder and gaskets before. Its a closed system and when you pull the handle it pushes on the rod that goes over to the clutch plate outside the basket.
the plates are supposed to be tight in the boss and when you pull the clutch it pushes out the plate releasing the plates. My question is I guess is how does air in the system affect the clutch plates? I would see if there is air and the plate does not move out releasing the plates but the plate moves out like it should. The spring is tight against the clutch boss which it is tight against the rod and little BB inside the shaft, no gap there.
here is a link to some pics and a video I took. There is one pic where I put the discs on another boss I have, same gap. With this gap it seems that there is no way that the clutch plate will be snug up against the discs holding them
http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/train460/slideshow/clutch

 

[DMAN999]

It's hard to tell from your pictures, is the pressure paate tight against the first friction plate when the clutch lever is out ?
If not you need to take the pressure plate off and rotate it until it goes back on tight against the first friction plate.
I believe the service manual says rotating the pressure plate 180 degrees may be necessary to get it to fit tight.
If you can't get it tight check the specs for the steel plate thickness, they may be too thin and need to be replaced.
Here's a picture of what it looks like with a Barnett pressure plate (your should be just as tight):

 

[[email protected]]

In photo #3 it looks like the pushrod is sticking out too far.

If you are sure the pressure plate is lined up correctly, and the pushrod is installed correctly I would try to crack the bleed to see if that changes anything.

You have already torn it apart multiple times. It's worth a shot

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[scuff]

check to make sure the basket is all the way seated and lined up with the little plastic gear behind it too, +1 on the bleeding the system too

 

[train460]

Ok. the majority thinks I need to bleed the clutch system, will do. I made sure the plate is on correctly, hole lined up with the hole, I moved it around just to see how it feels. I don't think the metals are out of spec, the reason is that the clutch worked before altho weak, now with thicker fibers it should be better, not worse on the spacing.
I guess that the basket/boss is pushed out some from the slave cylinder rod is possible. altho I did push on the slave rod thingee making sure it was all the way in but I guess could be tough under hydro pressure. I never pulled it out so the BB would not have been lost. I will loosen the slave cylinder bleed zert and relieve the pressure and see if I can push the basket and plate in any more to start. will bleed the clutch good. To me the telling sign is all is good it that the plates are tight against the fibers and metals.
michael

 

[train460]

check to make sure the basket is all the way seated and lined up with the little plastic gear behind it too, +1 on the bleeding the system too

I wouldn't think the basket would be off the gear because I never took it loose but will double check that also

 

[Fire-medic]

For getting the clutch to release if it doesn't due to hard meshing between the friction plates and the clutch housing, (shop manual in italics)
The manual says to:

...check to see if any of the friction plates fit too-snugly in the clutch housing. Any tight-fitting friction plates must be re-positioned as follows.
1] Remove the friction plates and the clutch plates.
2] Install the six plate (sic) (with the double semi-circular slots) and the six clutch plates
Note:
Invert the friction plates.

Be sure the single semi-circular slot (part # 4 in the shop diagram for the procedure) on the friction plate is aligned with the clutch housing embossed match marks (part # 2 in the shop diagram for the procedure).

Install the clutch plate and the friction plate (with the wide square slot)

Note:
Invert the friction plates.

Be sure the narrow square slot (part #5 in the shop diagram for the procedure) on the friction plate is aligned with the clutch housing embossed match marks (part #2 in the shop diagram for the procedure).

Install:
Pressure plate.

Note:
Be sure the match mark (part #1 in the shop diagram for the procedure)
on the clutch boss is aligned with the match mark (part # 2 in the shop diagram for the procedure) on the pressure plate.

[end of shop manual quotation]

As you can see, this is for a situation where the clutch is too-tight, not too-loose, but it bears following to see if the procedure resolves the free space.

I would also measure the steelies and the friction discs (minimum 2.8 mm) for tolerance, and warpage. The clutch spring minimum height is 6.5 mm. Seven clutch plates, six friction plates. The manual I have is a bit unclear as the part numbers for the reassembly of the clutch in the clutch exploded diagram are not correctly numbered sequentially, they use the @ symbol instead of integers (whole numbers) for some of the parts.

Just a thought, do you have the 'clutch spring seat' (part # 3 in the shop manual picture for clutch re-assembly, on page 3-67 of the VMX-12N version shop manual) between the clutch spring and the pressure plate?

It's hard to tell from your pictures, is the pressure paate tight against the first friction plate when the clutch lever is out ?
If not you need to take the pressure plate off and rotate it until it goes back on tight against the first friction plate.
I believe the service manual says rotating the pressure plate 180 degrees may be necessary to get it to fit tight.
If you can't get it tight check the specs for the steel plate thickness, they may be too thin and need to be replaced.
Here's a picture of what it looks like with a Barntat pressure plate (your should be just as tight):

 

[train460]

yup the clutch spring seat is there. I actually moved the fibers like the manual said. no go. I have all three manuals and have all 3 open to the clutch area to compare. I am guessing it has to do with the slave cylinder pushing the rod out and its keeping the plate from snugging up to the discs, also when it is bolted tight to the boss, its snug against the "lugs" no gaps.
michael

 

[D-Max2012]

Just happened to me today.
Fluid looks good.
All of a sudden, engine starts to load up, bike trying to move on its own while in 1st, still holding the clutch. Can't move it into neutral.
Held in brakes, engine died under too much load.

Now I have to figure out what the deal is.

 

[sdt354]

A couple of thoughts. Like everyone stated, the system must be bled properly or this type of issue persist. And, it can be a ***** to get all the air out. First, I go simple first. Make sure your lever is fully depressing the piston in the master. At the other end, the slave cylinder has to be extended fully, or incomplete disengagement.