Couldn't Shift into Neutral When Hot

[sulaco83]

So, I'm new to V-Maxes, and picked up my 02 about a month ago. I've gone on some short rides and it's been great, probably only put 100 miles on it so far though. Today, I met my wife for dinner in town, which was the longest ride I have had on it so far (20 miles each way). Everything seemed fine until I got close to home and went to put the bike in neutral so I could open the garage door. I sat there for a few minutes and the bike just kept going from 1st to 2nd. I haven't had any problems finding neutral before, other than the bike seeming to prefer going in from 2nd gear. After some playing and rocking the bike back and forth I finally got it in neutral, but then it didn't want to go back into 1st gear after I got the door open! It felt like there was a lot of heat coming off the bike and I wonder if that had something to do with it, and I'm probably due for an oil change since I don't know when the previous owner did one last. I really hope the transmission isn't screwed up. Has anyone else had a similar problem and have any pointers for me? I am planning to do an oil change within the next week. Thanks!

 

[Fire-medic]

Several things to consider:

• yes, change the oil, read the oil threads in 'frequently asked questions'
• if that doesn't help, you might check your shift segment pins the factory manual is on the website, look for it so you will be familiar with what you're going to see
• make sure your clutch is well-bled, and that the F&R brakes and the clutch master cyl's fluid is transparent. If it's opaque, change the fluid and bleed the systems. I prefer to reverse-bleed with a large 60 cc syringe and a short length of clear plastic tubing. Again, look at the site for info, do a search for reverse-bleed.

I think I would leave the shift segment pins check for the last one.

 

[one2dmax]

Probably a tiny bubble in the clutch slave right by the bleeder (where it accumulates). Just a quick crack with slight pressure on the lever while opening and closing when a little fluid comes out. Have a rag over the bleeder in case it blasts out of there.

Your segment will be new enough that it should not be an issue.

Oil can and does make a big difference.

And there was a factory bulletin about this situation. See attached.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Alss check that there isn't excessive play in the shift mechanism and that the tick-over isn't set too high.

 

[dannymax]

+1 on the clutch/slave bleed....my '96 started doing this exact same thing and a quick bleeding squared it right away.

 

[sdt354]

+1 to all the above. There is a feel for getting our bikes into neutral. When I first got mine I had trouble finding neutral. A little blip of the throttle does wonders. Best sucess for me is from 1st to neutral.

 

[marsmax85]

On my 85 I used to use yamylube and always had trouble when hot then I switch to rotella 15w 40 and a miracle happened :biglaugh:

 

[sulaco83]

Thanks everyone. I went out this morning and it was shifting real easily without starting it. I'm going to start with the oil change, today if possible. Is there a good how-to out there for bleeding the clutch? I have not done that before. Is there also something out there for idle adjustment? Thanks again!

 

[dannymax]

I bleed the old fashioned way....pump the lever 6 or 8 times, hold it in, loosen the bleeder fitting, then close it again as you feel the pressure leave the clutch lever....then let the lever out. It's good to have a piece of clear tubing going from the fitting down to a 'suitable container'.

Idle adjustment is done by turning the thumb screw located behind the lower carb mounting bracket on the left side (sitting n the bike).

 

[Jan Bee]

A mityvac for bleeding works wonders for those without long arms.
Small skinny fingers will actually reach the idle screw on the left side just over the top of the chrome "H" looking cover-sets at around 1000- 1100 rpm for best charging.

 

[one2dmax]

It should not need a full "bleed". Just one small crack open of the bleeder. The key is to close it before you let go of the lever!

 

[Fire-medic]

Some helpful info.

I was reminded to try the reverse-flush by another poster years-ago on here. I had done it before for the first time in the 1980's on my KZ1000's and had always had good luck with using my Mityvac in the traditional method, but when presented with a difficult bleed, I resorted to it after hearing about it, and it solved the problem.

Probably because of the convoluted path to the slave, the hydraulic line system has a good chance of developing 'pockets' for crud and air pockets along the clutch hydraulics. Either a total disassembly and check of all components is needed if you have ongoing problems, or more frustrating experimentation is the outcome. If you get a "bit of lever," but only when relatively-close to the handlebar, then I'd say you still have air pockets which need to be purged. The reverse-bleed helps best to remove the stubborn air pockets in my experience.

Changing the fluid every year helps to remove the impurities and air, as-well as the water absorbed into the hydraulic fluid, which causes corrosion in the sealed system.

Another poster, davesax:
OK. what syringe are you guys using. I got a big plastic one from the auto section of walmart. IT'S AWFUL!!! I'm trying to use 1/4" ID tubing, and it either won't stay on the syringe or it pops off the bleeder. I can't meter out the pressure without it sticking and then it tries to just blast fluid everywhere. Maybe I should have just stayed with what I had last night. Now I have an "empty" clutch line and master. I'm just trying to push fluid up from the bottom.

Fire-Medic, do you just let the fluid sit in the hole where the bleeder was to load the slave before you start or is there some other way to get it to seep in there. I think it's getting blocked by a little air bubble or something.

My reply:
I use a short piece of clear plastic tubing and a syringe I buy at the pharmacist's, you don't need a prescription for a syringe, it's a 60 ml (CC) syringe w/a conical tip on it which accepts the clear plastic tubing I.D. tightly.

If I am installing a rebuilt slave or a new one, I fill it w/fluid on the bench, hand tighten the bleeder, and install it. I have some rubber plugs I use for the extension to the clutch line, friction-fit. Once the slave is bolted up, I remove the rubber plug for the stock rigid line, though you may have a SS flex line, I think, should be no-difference. Connect it. I usually leave the master cyl dry and just begin using the syringe to push fluid into the system from the slave bleeder. I use a teeny hose clamp to hold the tubing to the bleeder, and loosen the syringe so the tubing and bleeder can revolve either open or closed, depending on what I am trying to do w/it. Close the bleeder if you need to re-fill the syringe. Remove the syringe from the end of the tubing, and fill the syringe, and when you re-connect the filled syringe, if there are air bubbles in the tubing, a bit of 'pulling-out' pressure on the syringe stopper (the plunger) will allow the bubbles to move into the syringe body, and float to the top, leaving you w/a full body of fluid and no bubbles. Open the bleeder valve again, and continue to push fluid up the hydraulic system until you see the fluid start to accumulate in the master cylinder reservoir. This will usually be announced by a multitude of tiny "fizzy" bubbles in the fluid, just what you want, as the fluid is removing the air in the system!

Keep doing this until you don't see the "fizzy" bubbles any more, an indication that you have purged the air from the system. It may be necessary to remove some fluid from the master cyl reservoir if it fills, and you still have "fizzy" bubbles. At some point, you should have fluid and pretty-much no bubbles coming through the big & small holes in the floor of the master cyl. You should close the slave bleeder, and start to pump the lever, which should very-quickly show you to have some immediate resistance, and you should have the sense that the clutch slave is moving the pressure plate into disengagement. CAUTION! If you pull the lever w/the reservoir top off, and it has bled then you will get a geyser of fluid from the tiny front hole closest to the banjo bolt! If you carefully pull the clutch lever, you can see the geyser, and just don't pull it rapidly which will shoot the brake fluid everywhere. I usually cram a bunch of paper towels around the master cyl reservoir and replace them as required. You can always replace the cap which is probably the best way to do it, be careful how-much torque you use the tighten the screws. I usually have a bunch of replacement screws on-hand for the reservoir cap. A tapered flat-head Phillips screw or an allen-head will work, and I have used a hex-head machine screw in a pinch. If you have problems with the Phillips head screws, I cut a slot w/my trusty Dremel & a cut-off blade, and use a good-fitting slot head screwdriver.

Now you pump the lever to a point of pressure, and open the slave bleeder, as you would in a traditional bleeding, and feel the lever go to the handlebar-DO NOT RELEASE THE CLUTCH LEVER! Hold the lever to the handlebar, and tighten the slave bleeder. Now you can release the lever. Do this several times and every time you do, in the clear plastic tubing and the syringe still connected to the bleeder, you should see a solid column of brake fluid slightly-moving with your efforts. By now, you should have a firm clutch lever w/very-little free-play, and a total release of the clutch pressure plate. This concludes your work. Make sure you clean the brake fluid thoroughly. Discard the used brake fluid, never return it to the container!

That's how I do it, and I have pretty-much given-up on trying to rebuild master cyl's, I just buy a new one if the old one is bleeding internally.
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=28499&highlight=reverse-bleed

Sean is our 'go-to' guy on here, and there are plenty of others, Dannymax (carbs); CaptainKyle (like Sean, pretty-much everything, from mechanics to paint); ninjaneer, who hasn't been on here lately, but who is an electrical engineer; and many others who through their professional experiences or hobby interests, can assist us with almost anything wrong with our favorite rides. All you have to do is ask. I always suggest using the advanced search function to research your particular issue, you can often find an answer or several without having to post a question.

 

[sulaco83]

So just to check back with everyone, I changed out the oil to Rotella 15w-40, changed the filter, and took a long ride today. The shifting seems to be much smoother and I was able to get into neutral at the end of the ride. The old oil filter was on there so good, it makes me wonder if it was ever changed. I've never had so much trouble getting one off!

 

[42Below]

Re the filter - some wonderful person may have put it on without lubing the seal.

I used to be a car mechanic so changed a few. Dry seals are terrible to change. I have had to butcher a few off with screwdrivers through them etc.
I always suggest the 'next guy' theory when assembling stuff requiring lube etc - you might be the next guy who takes it off!

 

[marsmax85]

If you ever get into problems with your bike Capt Kyle lives in maryville Tn ..He says he knows how to work on bikes ..:biglaugh:

 

[putin]

same with mine. Also depends on temperature of engine