Cracked Welds

[-Lee-]

While doing some maintenance on my Max last night, I noticed that something that is really concerning me. On the frame front down tube on the left side there is a triangle plate. One side of this plate is for a motor mount and the other side has 2 bolts into the frame. The mounting holes for the 2 bolts are welded in. There is a crack nearly 1/2 way around this weld.

Can this be rewelded, or will I have to have the mounting taken all the way out and reinstalled?

I will get a picture of this so that you can see what I am talking about.

 

[mikemax04]

Not a problem Lee. You are referring to the lower left front motor mount. Those are tubes/spacers running through the frame and welded on both sides. Just make sure the person doing it is qualified. No engineering on this one.

 

[shawn kloker]

I would mig it right up.

 

[-Lee-]

After much screwing around with the lighting I finally got one that you can see clearly.

 

[shawn kloker]

Wow Lee,Did you find any other cracks by the other motor mounts?Are these stock or solid mounts?That looks like it will need to be clamped to bring it back in before welding.You had to feel and hear that. I can always hear and feel when something is coming loose.I do not know why.It should have been flexing badly in turns.

 

[-Lee-]

Wow Lee,Did you find any other cracks by the other motor mounts?Are these stock or solid mounts?That looks like it will need to be clamped to bring it back in before welding.You had to feel and hear that. I can always hear and feel when something is coming loose.I do not know why.It should have been flexing badly in turns.

I have checked all over thoroughly. Looks like the tear-down is going to come earlier than I had planned. I will not be riding any more until I get this fixed.

I have solid mounts. I cannot say that I felt or heard this. We were really riding hard last weekend though some very twisty roads. I am pretty sure that is when this happend.

Time to start the winter project.

I will keep everyone informed.

 

[firefly]

I have checked all over thoroughly. Looks like the tear-down is going to come earlier than I had planned. I will not be riding any more until I get this fixed.

I have solid mounts. I cannot say that I felt or heard this. We were really riding hard last weekend though some very twisty roads. I am pretty sure that is when this happend.

Time to start the winter project.

I will keep everyone informed.

Lee, thanks for sharing this.
________
silver surfer vaporizer

 

[firefly]

I've always said that solid mounts MIGHT crack the frame,Eric.H also said that it will loosen many bolts.
this looks like a stress fracture and it is right at the engine mount, the engine and frame of the vmax are not designed for the engine to be a stressed member, this is NOT a 400 lb bike with a rigid frame!
Having solid mounts plus low front profile tires will cause increased stress on the frame and this photo proves it.
We all learn as we go and if we think we know it all then we are in a sorry state. I am by no means putting down people that have and are happy with solid engine mounts and low profile front and rear tires, this post it meant to make people aware of the pit falls that happen unexpectedly with mods, some mods are a piece of cake and others are not so innocent and cause complications later in the life of the bike.
We can disagree and still keep things civil and still be friends and members of the same community.
________
S14

 

[Lew L]

To do a proper job of welding the frame together You will have to:
1. Remove the paint from 2-3 in. around the crack.
2. Grind the crack half way into the thickness of the frame.
3. I would consider using a G.T.A.W. ( TIG) welder --- It will cost you a bit more but is is your bike
4. Drill a 1/8" hole at each end of the crack or it may continue after welding and riding. You can weld the hole closed.

Good luck.
Lew

 

[mikemax04]

After much screwing around with the lighting I finally got one that you can see clearly.

That's the top mount and have threaded inserts welded to the frame. I would get a piece of flat stock 4"x4"x 1/8 thick. This metal will be a glove and wrap around the frame where the two welds are. Drill two holes in the glove to let the two inserts/nuts come through. Chamfer both holes deep enough inside so the plate fits snug against the frame. I would place the holes so that the seam of the glove is in front. Now bend the plate into a U shape and slide it over the frame and let the nuts come through the holes in the plate. Bending the plate first at the end with the holes will allow you to have both holes fit snug in that area. This will allow you to weld the holes onto the inserts/nuts. With the plate being held by the welds around the nuts, you can proceed bending the plate so that both ends meet in the front and can be welded together. Weld the crack shut. Weld the holes in the plate to the nuts, and weld the plate together. I would not weld on the frame more than is necessary. This should be stronger than original if the glove fits tight. If you can find a pipe with the inside diameter corresponding to the outside dia. of the frame, cut it in half and drill one side for the nuts. Now you have two vertical welds 180? apart. Butt one side together and weld. Fill the crack on the other side with a welding rod with the flux removed. This will prevent welding to the frame. Just two examples what's possible and should be a quick and strong fix. Good luck

 

[one2dmax]

I've always said that solid mounts MIGHT crack the frame,Eric.H also said that it will loosen many bolts.
this looks like a stress fracture and it is right at the engine mount, the engine and frame of the vmax are not designed for the engine to be a stressed member, this is NOT a 400 lb bike with a rigid frame!

Keep in mind that the solid mounts were only moved over from another model that was very similar to the Vmax. In fact it is much heavier and a crappier suspension.

This is the first time I have seen this but I'm sure may not be the last. As with any bike ridden in demanding situations there are going to arrise some issues. I am sure the solid mounts didn't help it but I would not take them out either.

Sean Morley

 

[-Lee-]

All,

The investigation will continue. I thank all of you who have offered solutions. I am considering all of them. I am also considering just getting a new frame if I can get one sent over here.

Just some background and some rhetorical questions:

I ride my Max like a sport bike. I have tried my best to set it up the best it can be to handle that type of riding too. USD forks resprung for my weight and the type of riding I do. WP piggy back shocks. 17 inch wheels with quality rubber. Etc...

Could it possibly be that the frame was merely streched or flexed to its limit?

Could it be that there was a weak spot in the weld from the factory and it finally let go?

Could it be that it was always there covered by paint and that finally came off?

Could it have happened anyway even if I still had the stock Gummi-Bear mounts?

No one has ever said that the solid mounts caused this. It was not even alluded to. That conclusion is pure speculation and supposition.
To perpetuate this is BS until it has been proven!

I will continue to keep you all informed of the progress.

 

[one2dmax]

I would not go so far as to replace the frame. I see no reason at all why it can't be welded back together. Normally the welded area is stronger the the surrounding metal and in this case it appears the weld itself failed. This would be an indication of a weld that was not 100% to begin with.

With hard riding you are going to find weak links in anything you have. A new frame with rubber mounts will eventaully fail too as it is simply a matter of time.

Here is a simple test for you to try out.

Get 2 small sections of metal. usually about 1" wide and 8-10" long x 1/16" thick would do. Take one piece and bend it in the center. Continually bend that piece back and forth until you get it to break. Count the number of times you bend it. It will take a long time.

Then get another identical piece. Simply score the piece with an awl. It doesn't have to be really deep. Now perform the same test. You will find the scratched part will break about 75-90% faster then the undamaged part.

Your frame could be a simple case of an incomplete or inaccurate weld and you simply flexed it until it broke.

I would check the remaining welds and ensure they are structurally sound and then repair yours. Call around to some of the scientific testing shops or even votech schools and see if anyone is trained and has the equipment there to sonic test the weld. The process may be referred to as Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) by them. Essentually they can do a simple test that checks the frame for unseen damage. It will be a lot cheaper then getting another frame and moving parts over. Not to mention if the person is trained righr you will be assured of the integrity of the part.

You can gusset the frame as well to make it more rigid but you have to be careful as the frames are designed to have some flex to act as a shock absorber for daily riding. A very rigid frame will crack faster then one that flexes.

Sean Morley

 

[firefly]

All,

The investigation will continue. I thank all of you who have offered solutions. I am considering all of them. I am also considering just getting a new frame if I can get one sent over here.

Just some background and some rhetorical questions:

I ride my Max like a sport bike. I have tried my best to set it up the best it can be to handle that type of riding too. USD forks resprung for my weight and the type of riding I do. WP piggy back shocks. 17 inch wheels with quality rubber. Etc...

Could it possibly be that the frame was merely streched or flexed to its limit?

Could it be that there was a weak spot in the weld from the factory and it finally let go?

Could it be that it was always there covered by paint and that finally came off?

Could it have happened anyway even if I still had the stock Gummi-Bear mounts?

No one has ever said that the solid mounts caused this. It was not even alluded to. That conclusion is pure speculation and supposition.
To perpetuate this is BS until it has been proven!

I will continue to keep you all informed of the progress.

Lee, I mentioned that in another post a few months back under brace.
your photo tell it all , if the frame cracked in a different location then it is another story, BS I don't think so but what do I now.
I hope you get it fixed and continue enjoying your max.
________
silver surfer review

 

[-Lee-]

I am currently disassembling the max down to the bare frame. I have spoken to Rolf and Marcell (The guys that developed the F.I. system for the Max) and they are sure that they can fix it. I am probably going to get a used frame just in case. I can always resell it if need be.

The frame will be sandblasted and then inspected for any further damages. Once repaired the frame will be reinforced in several other areas to increase stability. Once completed all of the welds will be cleaned up and then it will be sent out to be powdercoated.

Naturally I will try to keep a photo diary of the progress.

 

[shawn kloker]

Lee How many german dollars go into $3000 usd?Sounds exspensive but you will have piece of mind again.

 

[firefly]

Now after getting blasted by the vmoa tech list guys and called names
they are starting to take a closer look at the solid mounts discussion and the intelligent among them are now saying it can happen ( to crack the frame) from vibration , hard riding and other factors and I add that using a short profile front tire and making the fork springs firm, all factors playing together can crack a frame.
what I never said is that solid mounts alone will definitely crack the frame!
Thanks Sean for trying ,it was like a flood of stupidity and prejudice.
________
Impreza WRX WRP10

 

[firefly]

Lee, I wonder why didn't some one / company make a new lighter & stronger frame for the max? with so many vmax produced until 07 I would think there is a good market for that, maybe you can ask these guys about it and how much it will cost and sell for?
I bet Sandy at Kosman can build a great frame for the max, that is his specialty.
________
smoking kills

 

[Buster Hymen]

Lee, I wonder why didn't some one / company make a new lighter & stronger frame for the max? with so many vmax produced until 07 I would think there is a good market for that, maybe you can ask these guys about it and how much it will cost and sell for?
I bet Sandy at Kosman can build a great frame for the max, that is his specialty.

Someone on the list a few years ago asked who would be interested in an aftermarket frame for the VMax and there wasn't much interest. I think he was going to design it and market it.

 

[maleko89]

Not enough Vmaxes sold.....it's a cult bike.