EFI and bad charging system ?

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twistedmax

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Im having trouble AGAIN ,:bang head: and Im wondering if it might be in the charging system and not the EFI this time:ummm:.so for you few guys with the WB system, how would/could a weak/bad charging system affect the funtion of the EFI.. runs great when Im on it hard :biglaugh:,but seems to "quit" monentarly with no load or at twitch of the throttle.:confused2:
 
Yes, the WB EFI system sucks the voltage. The system would hardley run at low RPM when we first stuck it on Jim's bike. I think you said you have the R1 R/R? You will want at least 14v at idle.
 
I havnt done the ri rr mod yet, but Ive never had these symptoms before.Im thinkin of replacing everything in the charging system,stator,pickups,rr, and can the flywheel go "bad" magnets get weak or ?
 
Man I've fought with charging system through last month :bang head:

My stock stator exploded and was damaged mechanicly, dont ask me how this happend.
Anyway I've got bad: stator, RR, battery and stator cover.


Bought new battery, YZF R6 R/R and my friend gave me stator with cover from 82 venture.
Stator looked good and I've had 3x50V on the wires but only 12,4V at the battery.
So I found the R/R was bad. Bought another from zx6 which is the same R/R.
Also I found stator with some breakdowns to the ground.

I rewire the stator myself, now its sitting in the drying chamber.


I have found that almost all stators in motorcycles runs on "Y" mode connections. I wonder what will happen when we switch the stator to DELTA connection?

300px-Wye-delta.svg.png


Theoreticly we will get 3 times more power/3 times more current.
More less.

The problem may be with the R/R to handle that much power.
I've found that most motorcycles runs with SHINDENGEN R/R's.

The most powerfull FH012 they made can handle 50A and it can be found in YZF R1's motorcycles.
 
To get enough voltage to get the EFI to run properly I had to get and aftermarket, higher output, stator AND change to a better RR, I use a ZX6R one. Of course that stator had the same problem as Prezmek's and I am back to a stocker that seems to be doing ok, but I am planning to get another aftermarket one when funds permit.
 
I havnt done the ri rr mod yet, but Ive never had these symptoms before.Im thinkin of replacing everything in the charging system,stator,pickups,rr, and can the flywheel go "bad" magnets get weak or ?

Do the R1 r/r mod first, it is a cheap mod to do and you may not have to do anything else.
 
Would it cause drivablity issues? And inexpensive is good, I had my son price out EEVERYTHING. stator, flywheel,pickups and gaskets.retail 1800 his cost 1100.So what is the upgrade for stator/flywheel? Mind you that this is an 89.
 
Would it cause drivablity issues? And inexpensive is good, I had my son price out EEVERYTHING. stator, flywheel,pickups and gaskets.retail 1800 his cost 1100.So what is the upgrade for stator/flywheel? Mind you that this is an 89.

All I had on mine was the R1 r/r and all the charging system connectors were eliminated and soldered. Check your voltage at idle. If it is low, the EFI will give you grief. With just the R1 r/r, I was getting about 13.6 volts at idle with the EFI system.
 
Gary ,(or anyone else interested) last time I had it pluged into the laptop I think it was around 13.8 to 14.3 or so up and down .what are some of the drivablity issues it might have ? I soldered in a new ,newer then 89 rr in it the beganing of the season, could it be bad already?and did you leave your inlet temp corrections off when the weather turned cold?
 
Gary ,(or anyone else interested) last time I had it pluged into the laptop I think it was around 13.8 to 14.3 or so up and down .what are some of the drivablity issues it might have ? I soldered in a new ,newer then 89 rr in it the beganing of the season, could it be bad already?and did you leave your inlet temp corrections off when the weather turned cold?

That is a good voltage reading, so if it is still that then I'd say it is not a charging or low voltage issue.
 
That is a good voltage reading, so if it is still that then I'd say it is not a charging or low voltage issue.
then what bad ECU? :confused2:Ive already swapped out the TCI,same symtems:bang head: a very lean or fat block in the mapp?:bang head: loose wire?
 
then what bad ECU? :confused2:Ive already swapped out the TCI,same symtems:bang head: a very lean or fat block in the mapp?:bang head: loose wire?

Just reread your first post. You might want to try setting up your TPS again.
 
Done it , but Ill try reloading a map and recalibrating the TPS,cant hurt. thanks for the input!
 
Exactrep Higher Output Alternator
Exactrep R/R
Eliminate plugs in the wiring harness for the alternator and R/R Ground R/R to frame
heavy duty starter wire upgrade
heavy duty battery ground upgrade
cut the back out of battery box and installed Sears Die Hard Gold
14.5-14.75v

Now You Are REady for WB EFI imho

rick rash

rick rash
 
Stator rewinded!
Heavy duty heat and oil resistant doulde insulated wire, heat and oil resistant epoxy, halogen free double insulated outside wires.

Thats a 83 venture stator and it was equiped with 1,15mm wire.
I used 1,2mm wire couse my local shop didnt have a 1,15mm.

14,3V at 5000rpms and work like a champ :punk:
zx6r rectifier/regulator(Shindengen).
Total cost of repair about 20$.

zdjcie018f.jpg


zdjcie019ei.jpg
 
Przemek, how many more watts does your Venture stator put out? I think I remember it being 50 but wondering if that was accurate? Who did the rewinding?
 
Im not sure Mark, I know stock stator is about 350W 14V/25A.
XVZ 1300 manual says 14V/30A so 420W.

Thtas being said(if I remember right things from school LOL) that You can load about 5-7A per 1mm2 on the device that works with quasi constant load.
So if the diamater of the venture stator wire is 1,15mm so we have 1,0386mm2.
So about 5,2-7,5A.
1,2mm wire will give You 1,1309mm2 so 5,65-8A.
Some improvment.

It can be calculated precisley.
Number of wire rolls, cross-section of the stator core - just like with 3-phase transformer. More less.
I can do the math if You want.
That can tell us how much power the venture stator core can produce.


I've rewind the stator myself. I use to rewind coils ac/dc motors, transformers
etc at school all the time.
Not that dificult as it looks like.
The main problem is the good selection of wire and sealant.
They must be heat and oil resistant. Serioulsy.
Not evry wire and epoxy will do the job.
 
Man I've fought with charging system through last month :bang head:

My stock stator exploded and was damaged mechanicly, dont ask me how this happend.
Anyway I've got bad: stator, RR, battery and stator cover.


Bought new battery, YZF R6 R/R and my friend gave me stator with cover from 82 venture.
Stator looked good and I've had 3x50V on the wires but only 12,4V at the battery.
So I found the R/R was bad. Bought another from zx6 which is the same R/R.
Also I found stator with some breakdowns to the ground.

I rewire the stator myself, now its sitting in the drying chamber.


I have found that almost all stators in motorcycles runs on "Y" mode connections. I wonder what will happen when we switch the stator to DELTA connection?

300px-Wye-delta.svg.png


Theoreticly we will get 3 times more power/3 times more current.
More less.

The problem may be with the R/R to handle that much power.
I've found that most motorcycles runs with SHINDENGEN R/R's.

The most powerfull FH012 they made can handle 50A and it can be found in YZF R1's motorcycles.

why increase capacity by three times? connecting the generator in the delta we have a 1.73 times lower voltage and power get the same. that is, we can get more line current. because the voltage, we regulate the voltage regulator and we can consider it as a constant, we have, in principle, possible increase in power factor of 1.73. But here I cease to understand personally. relay controller regulates the voltage on a motorcycle how-it simply closes the running phase of the mass (body), when the voltage reaches a certain voltage. it does not diminish it. He removes it completely. and we stress that only some of the time. faster than the sinusoid reaches of the required voltage, the faster it will cut the lights, the less our generator will make a useful work. we almost can not make full use of one hundred percent that can give the generator. because we use only a portion of a sine curve. if we increase the current, given up the generator, we can just burn the relay controller. I do not understand. One way to increase the capacity of the motorcycle generator-use most of the sinusoid. but how? You can try using either a high-voltage converter, which will give from leaving the generator 50-180 volts we needed 13 volts. but all such devices low reliability. they are quite complex, capricious and so on. large, in the end. You can try to load than the-phase winding to a voltage regulator to power so quickly grew. then we can use most of the sinusoid. efficiency of the current will go to consumers anymore. but at low speed charging is clearly less. I can not understand it. in a scheme with a triangular arrangement of the windings sinusoid is not a roach, because the maximum voltage of the generator is less. hence we use most of the sinusoid. but there is a problem of reliability. When connecting the star we have cut off a winding, two other working fully. connecting triangle on loss of one phase we get one working and then not completely. question purely speculative. but it is. and, probably, so manufacturers and uses a star. as more reliable. let the charge is weaker, but safer. in the case of partial destruction of the generator or relay control such a scheme gives more chances to get to places.
about the triangle, you can connect more to paint, how do you put together the winding? you are connected parallel to 6 coils in a row? and you got three phases? what happens to the charging at low speeds? 1000, 2000, 3000? under load? you increased the number of turns in the coil?
guys, I do not understand English and I use a translator. I beg forgiveness for the inarticulate. and often himself translator translates not entirely correct. I do not understand very well, plus a translator does not work entirely correctly, it turns porridge:) sorry. but if someone could explain to me, I'll be inordinately grateful. Thanks.
почему вырастет мощность в три раза?при подключении генератора в схему треугольник мы получаем в 1,73 раза ниже напряжение, а мощность получаем ту же самую . то есть , мы можем получить больше линейного тока . так как напряжение у нас регулирует регулятор напряжение и мы можем посчитать его как постоянное , мы имеем в принципе возможное повышение мощности в 1,73 раза . но вот тут лично я перестаю понимать . реле регулятор на мотоцикле регулирует напряжение каким образом -он просто замыкает работающую фазу на массу(корпус) , когда напряжение достигает определенного напряжения . он не уменьшает его . он его убирает совсем . и мы имеем напряжение только какую то часть времени . чем быстрее синусоида достигнет нужного нам напряжения , тем быстрее его обрежет регулятор , тем меньше наш генератор совершит полезной работы . мы практически не можем полностью использовать на сто процентов то , что может дать генератор . потому , что мы используем лишь часть синусоиды . если мы увеличим ток , отдаваемый генератором , мы можем просто спалить реле регулятор . я не понимаю . один из способов увеличения мощности мотоциклетного генератора-использовать большую часть синусоиды . но как это сделать ? можно попробовать использовать какой либо высокочастотный преобразователь напряжения , который будет давать из выходящих из генератора 50-180 вольт необходимые нам 13 вольт . но у всех таких устройств низкая надежность . они все достаточно сложные , капризные и так далее . большие , в конце концов . можно попробовать чем то нагружать фазную обмотку до регулятора напряжения , чтобы напряжение так быстро не росло . тогда мы сможем использовать большую часть синусоиды . полезного тока будет уходить на потребители больше . но на малых оборотах зарядка будет явно меньше . я ничего не могу понять . в схеме с треугольным расположением обмоток синусоида не такая горбатая , потому , что максимальное напряжение такого генератора меньше . следовательно мы используем большую часть синусоиды . но тут возникает проблема надежности . если при подключении звездой у нас обрывается одна обмотка , две других работают полноценно . при подключении треугольником при обрыве одной из фаз мы получаем одну работающую и то не полностью . вопрос чисто умозрительный . но он есть . и ,наверное ,поэтому производители и используют соединение в звезду . как более надежное . пусть зарядка слабее , но надежнее . в случае частичного разрушения генератора или реле регулятора такая схема дает больше шансов доехать до места .
по поводу подключения треугольником -можно подробнее нарисовать , как ты соединил обмотки ? ты соединил параллельно 6 катушек подряд ? и у тебя получилось три фазы ? что происходит с зарядкой на малых оборотах ?1000 ,2000 ,3000? под нагрузкой ? ты увеличивал число витков в обмотке ?
парни , я совсем не понимаю английский язык и пользуюсь переводчиком . прошу простить за невнятность . и часто сам переводчик переводит не совсем правильно . я сам не очень хорошо понимаю , плюс еще переводчик работает не совсем корректно , получается каша :)извините . но если кто -то сможет мне объяснить , буду премного благодарен . спасибо .
:bang head::bang head::bang head:
 
Its ok, I understand You.
I speak russian a little.

Why increase?
Personaly I dont need more power but many guys here runs with extra devices
on thier bikes.
It was just an idea.

Many modern motorcycles use DELTA connection.
Most of the sport bikes.
And thats becouse they engines likes high rpms.

In delta connection we have so called "blind currents" beteween phases.
Those blind currents are preatty high at idle and they become smaller when the rpms gets higher. That phenomena is harmful.
But as said, sport bikes are working at higher rpms so they dont feel that.

Sport bikes stators are very small, also flywheels are small.
Most important factor in the sport bikes is weight.
In delta, stator can produce much power with the small size core and flywheel.

Where did You get 1,73 factor?







why increase capacity by three times? connecting the generator in the delta we have a 1.73 times lower voltage and power get the same. that is, we can get more line current. because the voltage, we regulate the voltage regulator and we can consider it as a constant, we have, in principle, possible increase in power factor of 1.73. But here I cease to understand personally. relay controller regulates the voltage on a motorcycle how-it simply closes the running phase of the mass (body), when the voltage reaches a certain voltage. it does not diminish it. He removes it completely. and we stress that only some of the time. faster than the sinusoid reaches of the required voltage, the faster it will cut the lights, the less our generator will make a useful work. we almost can not make full use of one hundred percent that can give the generator. because we use only a portion of a sine curve. if we increase the current, given up the generator, we can just burn the relay controller. I do not understand. One way to increase the capacity of the motorcycle generator-use most of the sinusoid. but how? You can try using either a high-voltage converter, which will give from leaving the generator 50-180 volts we needed 13 volts. but all such devices low reliability. they are quite complex, capricious and so on. large, in the end. You can try to load than the-phase winding to a voltage regulator to power so quickly grew. then we can use most of the sinusoid. efficiency of the current will go to consumers anymore. but at low speed charging is clearly less. I can not understand it. in a scheme with a triangular arrangement of the windings sinusoid is not a roach, because the maximum voltage of the generator is less. hence we use most of the sinusoid. but there is a problem of reliability. When connecting the star we have cut off a winding, two other working fully. connecting triangle on loss of one phase we get one working and then not completely. question purely speculative. but it is. and, probably, so manufacturers and uses a star. as more reliable. let the charge is weaker, but safer. in the case of partial destruction of the generator or relay control such a scheme gives more chances to get to places.
about the triangle, you can connect more to paint, how do you put together the winding? you are connected parallel to 6 coils in a row? and you got three phases? what happens to the charging at low speeds? 1000, 2000, 3000? under load? you increased the number of turns in the coil?
guys, I do not understand English and I use a translator. I beg forgiveness for the inarticulate. and often himself translator translates not entirely correct. I do not understand very well, plus a translator does not work entirely correctly, it turns porridge:) sorry. but if someone could explain to me, I'll be inordinately grateful. Thanks.
почему вырастет мощность в три раза?при подключении генератора в схему треугольник мы получаем в 1,73 раза ниже напряжение, а мощность получаем ту же самую . то есть , мы можем получить больше линейного тока . так как напряжение у нас регулирует регулятор напряжение и мы можем посчитать его как постоянное , мы имеем в принципе возможное повышение мощности в 1,73 раза . но вот тут лично я перестаю понимать . реле регулятор на мотоцикле регулирует напряжение каким образом -он просто замыкает работающую фазу на массу(корпус) , когда напряжение достигает определенного напряжения . он не уменьшает его . он его убирает совсем . и мы имеем напряжение только какую то часть времени . чем быстрее синусоида достигнет нужного нам напряжения , тем быстрее его обрежет регулятор , тем меньше наш генератор совершит полезной работы . мы практически не можем полностью использовать на сто процентов то , что может дать генератор . потому , что мы используем лишь часть синусоиды . если мы увеличим ток , отдаваемый генератором , мы можем просто спалить реле регулятор . я не понимаю . один из способов увеличения мощности мотоциклетного генератора-использовать большую часть синусоиды . но как это сделать ? можно попробовать использовать какой либо высокочастотный преобразователь напряжения , который будет давать из выходящих из генератора 50-180 вольт необходимые нам 13 вольт . но у всех таких устройств низкая надежность . они все достаточно сложные , капризные и так далее . большие , в конце концов . можно попробовать чем то нагружать фазную обмотку до регулятора напряжения , чтобы напряжение так быстро не росло . тогда мы сможем использовать большую часть синусоиды . полезного тока будет уходить на потребители больше . но на малых оборотах зарядка будет явно меньше . я ничего не могу понять . в схеме с треугольным расположением обмоток синусоида не такая горбатая , потому , что максимальное напряжение такого генератора меньше . следовательно мы используем большую часть синусоиды . но тут возникает проблема надежности . если при подключении звездой у нас обрывается одна обмотка , две других работают полноценно . при подключении треугольником при обрыве одной из фаз мы получаем одну работающую и то не полностью . вопрос чисто умозрительный . но он есть . и ,наверное ,поэтому производители и используют соединение в звезду . как более надежное . пусть зарядка слабее , но надежнее . в случае частичного разрушения генератора или реле регулятора такая схема дает больше шансов доехать до места .
по поводу подключения треугольником -можно подробнее нарисовать , как ты соединил обмотки ? ты соединил параллельно 6 катушек подряд ? и у тебя получилось три фазы ? что происходит с зарядкой на малых оборотах ?1000 ,2000 ,3000? под нагрузкой ? ты увеличивал число витков в обмотке ?
парни , я совсем не понимаю английский язык и пользуюсь переводчиком . прошу простить за невнятность . и часто сам переводчик переводит не совсем правильно . я сам не очень хорошо понимаю , плюс еще переводчик работает не совсем корректно , получается каша :)извините . но если кто -то сможет мне объяснить , буду премного благодарен . спасибо .
:bang head::bang head::bang head:
 
Its ok, I understand You.
I speak russian a little.



Where did You get 1,73 factor?

when you connect a triangle and a star connection voltage is different in 1.73 times. we have the voltage 127 volts, 220, 380 and so on. if we connect a triangle of 220 volts, we can power the motor in a network with a voltage of 380 volts switching the windings in a star .
if I remember correctly what I was taught in college, then this (I'm not certain I remember correctly.) but because we have a constant voltage is obtained and it is determined by the relay voltage regulator, we will win when you connect a triangle in the current. that is, given up in moschnosti.generator able us to provide more current. but we can not use the entire piece with a sinewave generator. as soon as the voltage reaches the desired value, the relay will close our operating winding to ground. and the work of the utility turned into harmful. will be taken away the power of the engine on a short circuit. how to make all the stress I use? whole sine? here seems buried features to increase power output generator. to do so in order to use the entire sine wave, not a part. we have a sufficiently powerful generator, but it gives no tok.poluchaetsya all the time, as if we drag the weight is too powerful truck, but that the rate did not grow, we at regular intervals throw out the anchor and the wheels of the truck begin to slip, and then the speed drops ... we remove the anchor and start overclocking. at a certain speed, we again throw out the anchor and the wheel again stalled ... and so all the time. we can not reduce the power of the truck. and therefore spend a lot of gasoline. and the total rate is obtained by a little girl. Here's how it seems to me so. in my understanding of the task to change the relay controller, so it does not close our winding, and limits the voltage. that's just something I do not know these: (
 

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