Fuel from needle jet at idle? WTH????

[great white]

I love that wicked yellow Venture but I'm planning on doing something close to what you have done. I've been looking for a decent 1300 for awhile now and have been finding some priced right within a days drive. Figure I'll see if I can get one in the fall and probably a doner Vmax for all the parts. However it goes I want to end up with a fully functional, full bodied Venture with all the goodies it rolled off the showroom floor with, that just happens to have a bit of extra stomp. It feels like I'm almost done with my Vmax so I should have time and space. I would like to open it up the way the Vmax is for that extra rush but not finding any exhaust options or info on modifying Vmax aftermarket exhaust to work. More research to do yet and maybe poke around on a Venture forum. I would not be opposed to buying one already properly converted.

I'm really glad you traced all your steps here and I'm glad its looking up again. The lessons I'll take from this are not only from the problems and solutions you documented but also what your final working setup ends up being. Once again I hope you hit it on the head this time.

my project thread be worth a look if you havent already seen it:

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=41694

unfortunately, vmax pipes wont work on a venture. the monoshock occupies the space where oem and most aftermarket pipes go. its one of the reasons i still hve the stock collector and adapted R1 mufflers. mostly for the weight savings of Ti muffs. they do sound cool though. oem quiet around town and one unique howl when you open it up.

 

[great white]

Hard to tell from the pic, but not too bad:

Picture is deceiving, but in person 1 is perhaps just a touch lean, 2 is a bit rich, 3 is pretty close with maybe a touch on the rich side, 4 looks pretty damned close.....

 

[blaxmax]

4 looks the best and I don't see lean anywhere. I gave up on iridiums and now use these-----hope it helps-----helps that they are one of my sponsors too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moose-Racin...ash=item35f6b01907:g:FXcAAOSwxN5WX0Sy&vxp=mtr

 

[great white]

Yes, your documentation on this has been excellent. I get pretty crappy fuel mileage too. I had the airbox off and saw quite a lot of fuel misting from the needles when I would blip the throttle. I was wondering about the float level being off...

I'd check the wet levels and if its within spec, for the love of Jesus don't mess with them!


Best advice I can give is make sure the carbs are absolutely level when you check. pull the air box off and drop spirit level on the carb bodies. Level front to back and side to side. use a jack, shim the centerstand, whatever it takes. Even a little off level can give you an erroneous wet level reading and then you're off chasing the devil trying to correct them when they don't really need to be adjusted.....

 

[great white]

4 looks the best and I don't see lean anywhere. I gave up on iridiums and now use these-----hope it helps-----helps that they are one of my sponsors too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moose-Racin...ash=item35f6b01907:g:FXcAAOSwxN5WX0Sy&vxp=mtr

i usually run standard NGK for tuning, nothing but irridiums day to day.

anything besides ngk in a yammy is crap imo....

 

[great white]

Just took it for a 15min local run after making my adjustments.

Runs great, slightest hint of lean chug on throttle, even the cruise is working better now that the engine is running right.

Ran it into vboost territory once and its now a notable step in power. Not aggressive, but you know its doing its thing.

Was a great little country road rip, even warm and sunny running down treed lanes.

Great right up to the point where i was about 100 yards from the driveway. Queefed in the exhaust a couple times and then cleared off.

Clearly, I'm very close but not there yet.

Once it cools I'il yank the plugs and see what they look like.

I know its in the low circuit because:

Other than the one rip to vboost at the very start of the ride, never topped 1/4 throttle.

Like i said: ain't my first rodeo.


On second thought, I think I'll take the rest of the night off.

As far as I'm concerned, after this week or carb hell, Ive earned it!

 

[blaxmax]

i usually run standard ngk for tuning, nothing but irridiums day to day.

anything besides ngk in a yammy is crap imo....

Don't knock it until you try it.

 

[great white]

Don't knock it until you try it.

Don't need to waste my money to know what I'm looking at.

All have some type of gimmick or hook, from multiple ground electrodes to slots, grooves, coatings and any other number of "breakthrough" ideas.

All snake oil.

All crap.

My GM's get Delco. My Fords get Motorcraft. I don't care who they source them from originally, the OEM sets specs (and a price point) and suppliers hit them or loose their business.

Bikes get NGK or maybe ND depending on what came OEM. Only variation I've ever found worth a damn is the NGK iridium plugs. End of story.

Champion is a curse word around my shop. Best application for them is the 5 lb sledge.

35-odd years of hard earned experience has proven these facts for me over and over.

Keeping up with the auto journals from my former trade keeps me abreast any real discoveries in spark plug technology. Low volume "boutique" manufacturers of spark plugs are never it....

 

[blaxmax]

Don't need to waste my money to know what I'm looking at.

All have some type of gimmick or hook, from multiple ground electrodes to slots, grooves, coatings and any other number of "breakthrough" ideas.

All snake oil.

All crap.

My GM's get Delco. My Fords get Motorcraft. I don't care who they source them from originally, the OEM sets specs (and a price point) and suppliers hit them or loose their business.

Bikes get NGK or maybe ND depending on what came OEM. Only variation I've ever found worth a damn is the NGK iridium plugs. End of story.

Champion is a curse word around my shop. Best application for them is the 5 lb sledge.

35-odd years of hard earned experience has proven these facts for me over and over.

Keeping up with the auto journals from my former trade keeps me abreast any real discoveries in spark plug technology. Low volume "boutique" manufacturers of spark plugs are never it....

That's funny-I tossed my overpriced iridiums a week after i bought them.

 

[great white]

That's funny-I tossed my overpriced iridiums a week after i bought them.

If you tossed them after a week you don't understand what they are intended for.

The value in iridium's (and platinum's or any rare earth/noble metals) is the wear characteristics compared to more conventional plugs. If you're expecting anything besides longevity in using them (IE: hp, mileage, smoother engine, etc) you're going to be disappointed. Their intended use is to hold their gap more precisely over longer periods. They are far less subject to the spark erosion normal plugs experience. That's why OEMs use them and why they have the extended change intervals.

If you installed them and had troubles (ie: carbon fouling, missing, ET loss, etc) you have other problems than the spark plugs. Assuming you installed the correct plug for the application that is.

It is possible to see an mpg improvement or smoother engine, but it's an average over the total lifespan of the plug because of it's consistency not because it has some secret performance advantage over conventional plugs. The lifespan of iridium's is in the 80-100,000 mile area, not over a couple tanks of fuel.

The side bonus is since the wear characteristics are superior, the points can be made sharp and small. This is important to spark plug action as spark jumps from the center electrode to the ground electrode from the sharpest point. In a conventional plug, it jumps from the edge of the center electrode where the sharp point is. It's also why it dances around that edge, every time a spark jumps it blows off a few molecules of metal making the next sharp point elsewhere on the edge. This is wear and why you chuck conventional plugs when the center electrode is worn over it's edge. It's also why the gap opens over time and you need to regap at intervals or just toss it. You could make a conventional looking spark plug with a complete iridium center electrode, but it's not needed due to the wear characteristics of the iridium and it would exponentially drive the cost up. That cost is also why only the very tip of that sharpened center electrode is iridium. It's just that good for wear in this application.

Rare earth metals don't experience the same wear so the spark is consistent, which makes for more consistent combustion over a longer period of time.

These are facts and not up for discussion. Arguing contrary only shows lack of knowledge of the science behind the product.

Some people have said they experienced better running by installing iridium's, but in those cases the plug is only covering deficiencies elsewhere in the ignition system or the conventional plugs were worn to a point where they should have already been replaced. I've had it happen myself: install iridium's, runs better. But I knew that wasn't the end of it, I chased it down and found corroded resistors in a couple of the spark plug caps which had raised the total resistance making the spark at the gap weaker. Changed the caps, then same running with iridium's or fresh conventional plugs.

Because the plug has sharp spark jump points, it's easier for a weak ignition to jump the spark. Or if their ignition system is indeed healthy, they're just experiencing the placebo effect: they're looking for a difference so they feel one.

Spark plugs don't need gimmicks like slots, grooves or whatever. That's all marketing hype to suck in the unknowing and grab your dollar. Spark plugs need a sharp consistent edge for spark to jump from and for it not to be blown away by the spark action (IE: wear). The rest is heat management and conductivity.

There is no "black magic", "secret process" or gov't plot to hide a "100 mpg spark plug" here, there's just good solid science. It's not subjective, it's black and white. You understand it or you don't. Plain and simple.

Now I'm done talking about it in this thread. This thread is about carb adjustments, not spark plugs.

Go start your own thread about spark plugs if you have an axe to grind.

 

[great white]

pulled the plugs this morning. Again, pics are a little decieving:

seeing them in person under the lighted 10X magnifier gives the real story.

1 is still a hint lean and probably the source of the little queefing i was noticing, 2is still fat but closer, 3 is pretty close and maybe an 1/8-1/16 turn fat, 4 is pretty good and maybe a 1/8 -1/16 turn lean.

zeroing in on the ideal settings pretty quick now.....

 

[Miles Long]

What criteria are you using to judge the running condition of your engine, G.W.?
I'm certainly no expert, but from the many past posts on the subject, and spark plug literature, the insulators should be almost white, while the "base ring" (the bottom of the threaded portion) should be a light tan color, to indicate the a/f mixture is good.
The plugs in my bike (same # as you use) are like this, and I get excellent mileage.
Bottom line - again, I'm just a hacker - I.M.H.O. your engine is running way too rich.
Cheers- and your bike looks awesome!
Dandy job!

 

[Traumahawk]

If you tossed them after a week you don't understand what they are intended for.

The value in iridium's (and platinum's or any rare earth/noble metals) is the wear characteristics compared to more conventional plugs. If you're expecting anything besides longevity in using them (IE: hp, mileage, smoother engine, etc) you're going to be disappointed. Their intended use is to hold their gap more precisely over longer periods. They are far less subject to the spark erosion normal plugs experience. That's why OEMs use them and why they have the extended change intervals.

If you installed them and had troubles (ie: carbon fouling, missing, ET loss, etc) you have other problems than the spark plugs. Assuming you installed the correct plug for the application that is.

It is possible to see an mpg improvement or smoother engine, but it's an average over the total lifespan of the plug because of it's consistency not because it has some secret performance advantage over conventional plugs. The lifespan of iridium's is in the 80-100,000 mile area, not over a couple tanks of fuel.

The side bonus is since the wear characteristics are superior, the points can be made sharp and small. This is important to spark plug action as spark jumps from the center electrode to the ground electrode from the sharpest point. In a conventional plug, it jumps from the edge of the center electrode where the sharp point is. It's also why it dances around that edge, every time a spark jumps it blows off a few molecules of metal making the next sharp point elsewhere on the edge. This is wear and why you chuck conventional plugs when the center electrode is worn over it's edge. It's also why the gap opens over time and you need to regap at intervals or just toss it. You could make a conventional looking spark plug with a complete iridium center electrode, but it's not needed due to the wear characteristics of the iridium and it would exponentially drive the cost up. That cost is also why only the very tip of that sharpened center electrode is iridium. It's just that good for wear in this application.

Rare earth metals don't experience the same wear so the spark is consistent, which makes for more consistent combustion over a longer period of time.

These are facts and not up for discussion. Arguing contrary only shows lack of knowledge of the science behind the product.

Some people have said they experienced better running by installing iridium's, but in those cases the plug is only covering deficiencies elsewhere in the ignition system or the conventional plugs were worn to a point where they should have already been replaced. I've had it happen myself: install iridium's, runs better. But I knew that wasn't the end of it, I chased it down and found corroded resistors in a couple of the spark plug caps which had raised the total resistance making the spark at the gap weaker. Changed the caps, then same running with iridium's or fresh conventional plugs.

Because the plug has sharp spark jump points, it's easier for a weak ignition to jump the spark. Or if their ignition system is indeed healthy, they're just experiencing the placebo effect: they're looking for a difference so they feel one.

Spark plugs don't need gimmicks like slots, grooves or whatever. That's all marketing hype to suck in the unknowing and grab your dollar. Spark plugs need a sharp consistent edge for spark to jump from and for it not to be blown away by the spark action (IE: wear). The rest is heat management and conductivity.

There is no "black magic", "secret process" or gov't plot to hide a "100 mpg spark plug" here, there's just good solid science. It's not subjective, it's black and white. You understand it or you don't. Plain and simple.

Now I'm done talking about it in this thread. This thread is about carb adjustments, not spark plugs.

Go start your own thread about spark plugs if you have an axe to grind.

I liked this explanation. Very simple and concise....for a debate/issue that can go on and on.

 

[great white]

What criteria are you using to judge the running condition of your engine, G.W.?
I'm certainly no expert, but from the many past posts on the subject, and spark plug literature, the insulators should be almost white, while the "base ring" (the bottom of the threaded portion) should be a light tan color, to indicate the a/f mixture is good.
The plugs in my bike (same # as you use) are like this, and I get excellent mileage.
Bottom line - again, I'm just a hacker - I.M.H.O. your engine is running way too rich.
Cheers- and your bike looks awesome!
Dandy job!

in a nutshell:

lots of people seem to think the center insulator is an indicator of jetting. not really. you're watching the base ring primarily and plug condition overall. tip insulator is only of any real use reading jetting at WOT chops.

heres pretty much what you're shooting for:

for jetting less than 1/4 throttle, you read the base ring and look for a full turn of even color. Brownish to grey/light black if possible but engine running qualities is the final deciding factor for me.

what you cant see is my plugs are contaminated with fuel additives. it adds a redish color to the insulator tip that you cant get rid of in the ultrasonic or burn off with the propane torch. you might be able to see it in this close up of a freshly burned clean plug:

I take this into account when reading my plugs after a run. I also burn them clean prir to a run. or if i have a set on the bench waiting and not running until the morning I chuck them in the ultrasonic overnight...

 

[Traumahawk]

in a nutshell:

lots of people seem to think the center insulator is an indicator of jetting. not really. only of any real use reading jetting at WOT chops.

For tuning here is a pic that has been floating around on the forum.

 

[great white]

back from a jetting run.

Queefing is completely gone. very good!

Accepts throttle in any gear from any rpm without protest. very good!

Very slightest of lean chug on heavy throttle at low rpm. Im just ticking into 1/2 throttle at that point so a smidge of needle work may be required. its certainly acceptable as is, I'm just fussy.

once it cools, plug pull for confirmation the burn looks good.

If i decide to mess with needle height, I,ll be doing a little more testing.

If I decide nt to, its confirmation runs for things like WOT chops and then irs good to go!

Phew. This one was a real fighter compredto ny other bikes....but I win!

lol!

 

[Miles Long]

in a nutshell:

lots of people seem to think the center insulator is an indicator of jetting. not really. you're watching the base ring primarily and plug condition overall. tip insulator is only of any real use reading jetting at WOT chops.

heres pretty much what you're shooting for:

for jetting less than 1/4 throttle, you read the base ring and look for a full turn of even color. Brownish if possible but engine running qualities is the final deciding factor for me.

what youcant see is my plugs are contaminated with fuel additives. it adds a redish color to the insulator tip that you cant get rid of in the ultrasonic or burn off with the propane torch. I takr this into account when reading my plugs after a run. I also burn them clean prir to a run.or if i have a set on the bench waiting and not running until the morning I chuck them in the ultrasonic overnight...

Thanks, great info.
My plugs have always looked very similar to "optimal", when I have checked them.
I used to think insulator color was the factor when determining mixture condition, Thanks to this forum, I now know that base ring color has much more to do with it.
Cheers!

 

[great white]

Thanks, great info.
My plugs have always looked very similar to "optimal", when I have checked them.
I used to think insulator color was the factor when determining mixture condition, Thanks to this forum, I now know that base ring color has much more to do with it.
Cheers!

cool.

i was taught how to read plugs when i was 13 and have been using/refining that ever since.

 

[maleko89]

Whatever works use is what I say!

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[caseyjones955]

I'm glad this came up, reading plugs ties in nicely with carb tweaking. It's also an aspect I have been putting on the back burner while I pay more attention to road testing.

I would be interested to know if anyone has seen empirical evidence that support the assertion of the pic indicating different regions of the plug represent different carb circuits, even to a small degree. It seems to good to be true. I'm still bent on getting a sniffer but this is interesting.