garrett's tuning/dyno thread

[dannymax]

Sean,

Do you recommend using the radioshack washers since your kit only came with 4 all in all?

JMO, but R/S washers are fine if you aren't looking for an exact dimension like .013" (there may not be that size in the bag)

There is a slight variation in the washers...maybe .001" +- You can use a 0-1" mic for selection.

There is a also a tiny casting burr on the washer's edge that you need to remove with a fine ground mill file. If you don't do this it will change your dimensions.

Precision ground shims....http://home.comcast.net/~onlyone12/carbs1.htm

danny

 

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<I><FONT color=red>White= Garrett

 

[gamorg02]

JMO, but R/S washers are fine if you aren't looking for an exact dimension like .013" (there may not be that size in the bag)

There is a slight variation in the washers...maybe .001" +- You can use a 0-1" mic for selection.

There is a also a tiny casting burr on the washer's edge that you need to remove with a fine ground mill file. If you don't do this it will change your dimensions.

Precision ground shims....http://home.comcast.net/~onlyone12/carbs1.htm

danny

the ones i have are all .018". going to try the radioshack ones and remove the burrs. i'll see where we are at tha tpoint. if it feels better i'll probably order a shim kit to get the quality stuff in there. i have a good set of calipers finally so i can ensure the washers are equal, and get a total reading.

White= Garrett
Red= my response to garrett blue = garrett's repsonse to mike.

thanks mike. everything i've read is pointing me towards a lean condition except the dyno sees a rich spot there. read thru a lot of those posts and information.

Dyno's only see part of the picture. Unless you run the bike thru multiple tests with varying throttle position I don't see how you can totally replace the 'ol seat of the pants ride with a dyno. Yes it is help and all that but I don't think it is the end all, cure all of tuning. Its a tool to be used in conjunction with other factors

starting to learn that. everything i've read said to put my main first. which is all good (something i didnt' want to get into, but starting to be ok with it if i had to). the dyno curve shows i need to drop to 160.5's if anything, but then i feel like it would just be way to lean at normal throttle positions.

my morley kit only came with 4 shims so i assumed i shouldn't put anymore than 1 per needle in the carbs. where are u guys getting more, radioshack? may have to stop there on the way home it seems!

Hmm, mine came with two little gags of shims. 4 shims/bag for a total of 8. I didn't need any extras so I'm not sure where to get em. I've heard radioshack. Or Paul Czernics (sp?) precision shim kit. I'm sure you could go to home depot and find what you need, maybe even in brass. Just take one of the ones you have now and match em up


gonna try radioshack, unless Sean recommends another. going to measure each to ensure the same size and see what i end up with. if it gets better i'll pay for a decent set of shims.



i believe so. i haven't had a chance to check with carb cleaner or wd40 yet, but can easily enough. i visually inspected the carbs they all seem to be seated properly

You know what to do here. Make sure "nubs" on each carb are against the boots, and scres on boots are bottomed out. Then the spray test

yupp. the boots are good, just didn't get a chance to do a spray test. plus someone emptied my carb cleaner and my wd-40 went missing, and all i foudn was pb blaster and that stuff could eat your skin so i'll find something today to use. i really don'to feel like its loose, but i'll rule it out.

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So i guess here is my thinking.

at WOT (main jet) i am seeing a rich surge at 5 - 6k rpms where i think if i could keep that somewhat increasing instead of flat lining i' definitely see some performance increases. does this mean my 162.5 might be too big?

A SURGE is NOT rich. It is lean. A bog is rich.

a full WOT run happens so quick i can't tell a lot. i'm getting this "rich surge" idea from my dyno chart. all i feel in my butt o meter is that i should have a bit more in the midrange.. just a bit. hard to tell tho

at my 5 - 7.5k range non-WOT range, it definitely seems lean. i am going to try 2x shims in each needle tomorrow. Sean, hoping youd pop online to give me your input. I know you guys had said to remove the shim, but it really sounds lean, maybe i'm missing something? i'm new, so i very well could be.

If the bike surges, or maybe stutters is a better explanation, and your getting popping thru the exhaust in the mid range, I would throw the original shim back in there and add another. Not sure if you said the slides were drilled or not. Either way, for right now, I would leave stock slide springs in there during the initial run

slides are drilled. plan is to right now, tonight un-unshim the needle (so put the shim back on) and add another. looks like someone had used my vicegrips on hardened diamond and the grip was all bent to **** so i had to use my robo grips to get 'em off. i called a couple stores seeing if they had security torx bits in stock, and one store told me there is no such thing. found one at ace but it was a T15, ours is a T25.

the 2-4k pulls seem strong as ever, don't think its nec an issue there, however the 4.5 - 5.5k cruising still is suffering.


so i know a lot of the tuning is based on throttle position, not engine speed, but how does there seem to be so many problems right around the same rpm? and rich AND lean conditions depending on the throttle? hmm maybe more research. maybe someone can give me a push?

thanks in advance guys.

Edit:. i just looked at maleko's thread on needle differences. could this be indicative of needing stage 7's? i'd hope to exhaust my possibilities with stock first. just to ballpark, if i needed 'em, Sean do you sell them? if so what do u typically charge? hopefully i get get this nailed down and not go that route.

What you're describing sounds just like what I went thru. I stepped up to two shims and it helped but I ended up increasing the main, dropping to one shim instead of two, and closing off the a/f screws a bit. Been running good ever since adn just netted 40mpg that way. Your elevation is about 1000' lower than me. I wouldn't be surprised to see you jump up one main size to 165's and start ov er. Of course, I have VERY LIMITED experiance with all of this so , what the hell do I know!

hey man i appreciate the comments. i feel like the 165's may be too much looking @ the dyno, since it already goes way rich right as vboost kicks in.

no idea on the a/f screws. the pilot circuits are something i'm still fuzzy on. more reading to do. my idle is perfect. absolutely no issues there.

oh and one othe rthing, my choke is a bit stickier than it was before the carbs went in. almost feels gritty? coudl there be somethign in the circuit? guy did a good job cleaning them for the most part, i can't imagine he wouldnt' have noticed if it is a problem...

 

[4gasem]

They should be smooth... No grit. There will be resistance, but it's smooth.

 

[gamorg02]

They should be smooth... No grit. There will be resistance, but it's smooth.

yea i know. i may have to look into that as well.

 

[dannymax]

i called a couple stores seeing if they had security torx bits in stock, and one store told me there is no such thing. found one at ace but it was a T15, ours is a T25.

Why put the security bit back in Garrett? Take one of the OEM phillips screws to Ace and match it to an allen head steel. They are about 2 or 3 threads shorter but they're fine.

When you're done with all your tuning get a set of s/s, right now why work with two different tools just to get the covers off?

danny

 

[gamorg02]

i called a couple stores seeing if they had security torx bits in stock, and one store told me there is no such thing. found one at ace but it was a T15, ours is a T25.

Why put the security bit back in Garrett? Take one of the OEM phillips screws to Ace and match it to an allen head steel. They are about 2 or 3 threads shorter but they're fine.

When you're done with all your tuning get a set of s/s, right now why work with two different tools just to get the covers off?

danny

haha. way ahead of ya danny! i was at ace picking up screws to replace them, and saw the t15. My vice grips had **** the bed (not sure who to blame there) so i was fighting with them with robo grips and ended up getting the last one, but beforehand i had made a couple calls to see if they had the bit to get the covers off.

 

[gamorg02]

my brain hurts.

haha i was looking @ 4gasems results from a wasy back when he was running walkers/morley kit as i figure i should be able to get close to his (124/82).

his a/f curve is NOT all that much diff from mine. mine dips into the mid/low 10's and his hits high 10's/low 11's at the same point.

i'd still like to find out if the needle plays any role at WOT at like the 5500 range... where it completely doesn't become a factor anymore.

sorry, just more thinking outloud

 

[zippo6]

Man, I just read this thread from start to finish... my head hurts now!

 

[m-cman]

I took a punch and broke off the little pin in the Torx security bolts. Then used a standard Torx tool.

 

[gamorg02]

update...

talked to sean, he recommended i go with the PAJ2 177.5's. that seemed to help a bit.

also then shimmed the needles and it was still a bit lean, and then went two shims and it helped even more. when i run with a slight choke it helps all over.

i feel like the 2 shims aren't enough. does that mean i need to go more main?

sucks i'm rich at WOT but still lean at cruising and light throttle.

it def feels better but i feel like there should be more in the 5 - 7.5k range and it stumbles if i slowly accel from 3/4k up to the vboost range before it gets to vboost. like it doesn't want to go further.

 

[maleko89]

With stock needles, need to go up another main jet size. Stage 7 needles may be the way to go.

 

[gamorg02]

With stock needles, need to go up another main jet size. Stage 7 needles may be the way to go.

thnx for the reply mark.

i'll talk to sean about it in the morning. see how much he wants for them. i think it'd be interesting to try them out.

it seems if i go up another jet size on my main, i would get an even richer WOT eh? and it looks like i'm OK with my WOT/main jet and if anything already on the richer side (as per the dyno.)

one question i still have tho

at WOT, around 5k - 6k rpms. is that ONLY mains or is that partly needles too?

 

[one2dmax]

Yes, you probably need to go up one more main size. Then you may be able to take out a shim again.

Sean

 

[maleko89]

at WOT, around 5k - 6k rpms. is that ONLY mains or is that partly needles too?

That's mostly needles and starting to get more to main around 6K.

 

[gamorg02]

Yes, you probably need to go up one more main size. Then you may be able to take out a shim again.

Sean

i'm probably going to give u a call later sean, but won't that richen my WOT up even more? make my 4.5 - 6k rich shown on the dyno worse? or did the 177.5PAJ2 i installed should have helped that.

That's mostly needles and starting to get more to main around 6K.

thanks mark, i was wondering about this.

 

[gamorg02]

update..

checked my seals. all is good. tried with starter fluid. NO idle changes.

in the meantime i'm going to try a larger main and unshimming a bit. we'll see how it goes. probably no update until tomorrow as its pissing here.

might be able to try some different needles next week as well and see how that goes.. (thnx sean!)

 

[gamorg02]

update.

pulled the carbs (surprisingly easy) and put 165 mains in them. made the high end worse and helped a tad on the midrange...

throughout pulling the carbs messed with looking at the wet float levels. without clear tubing and just using the current tubing to see when gas starts to flow out of the black tubing it seems like its about 1/4" low. that would make sense if thats the problem.


gonna check the floats tomorrow and probably put the 162.5 back in.

choke lever/assembly is still being finicky, but i messed with each plunger individually and they all pull fine, i think its just an allignment thing. not gonna worry about it.


current symptons with 165 mains, 2 shims, stock needles, stock springs, slides drilled. (unsure on a/f screws right now) also think the floats might be low

1. exhaust still popping under decel/light accel. very noticable b/t 3.5k and 4.8k rpms
2. exhaust popping gone with little choke applied
3. still seems to not want to go above 6 - 6.5k rpms with light throttle applied
4. WOTing from 7k seems to go 'duh duh duh' and then take off ( i think rich condition from bigger main)
EDIT: 5. at high 4krpms to about 6k rpms on the highway, with 1/8 throttle or so it seems kind of surgey. i think thats pilot screws.

next try:

1. check floats. if not right fix.
2. change back to 162.5 mains, esp if floats were low (causing lean)
3. early next week try stage 1 or 7 needles (thanks sean) see if that helps...
EDIT 4. look into pilot screws. i think they're all between 3 and 5 turns out and not sure how to adjust individually.


i wonder if it would make sense to goto 160's if i swap out mains in anticipation for the stage 7's (or 1s), if the floats are lean to begin with. since if i goto 162.5's and the leve was low thats kind of like a wash. this would lean it a bit more even.

i should probably just do one thing at a time tho.

also want to give thanks to dev (44 magnum) for listening to my inane questions.

and more importantly morley for not sighing when he sees my # come up on the caller ID, and listening to the inane questions dev and i couldn't figure out!! also for giving top notch customer service for his jet kit.

 

[gamorg02]

Monday morning update....

checked my floats best I could. then tore apart the carbs and adjusted using sean's and fargo's method. i'm closer, but not perfect. not gonna tear them apart again. spent 2 hours bending tangs. not fun.

measurements are from line to fluid leve.

Cylinder--Before--After
1-----------13------15.1
2-----------12.5----15.3
3-----------15------16.44
4-----------12------16.8

as u can see the right side is lower than the left. the bike could have been leaning slightly to the left or could be a function of my eye sight, as just the slightest off and it could vary like 2 mm. took forever to get the wet measurements. ended up using a marker on the carb covers then going back and measuring. depending where u looked/how u looked it could go like a mm either way

also put the 162.5 mains back in...

buttoned her back up.

nothing is worse, nothing is better for the most part either...

current config:
162.5 mains
drilled slides
2 shims on stock needles
177.5 PAJ2's

current symptoms:

1. say i'm crusing at 7.5k rpm's ish in 1st. i whack the throttle and it seems to stumble to redline (almost thinking lean, not sure why), then i quick shift to 2nd and WOT to redline and 2nd runs smooth (altho the power isn't quite where i'd want it) slight choke doesn't seem to help or hurt this.

2. with anything but 2/3 to full throttle it really really argues about going past about 6.5k rpms, and starts to stumble about 5 - 5.5k rpms.

3. exhaust still pops on decel or downshift. very noticable 3 - 5k rpms. seems worse in the 3k - 4k range. choke fixes this (99% at least)

4. Cruise at 5k rpms on highway in 5th (where most noticable, probably b/c of wind) still doesn' thave 'deliberate' cruise. but its better than it was.

5. low end pull still feels good.



So my current thoughts are i'm running lean EVERYWHERE now that i lowered my floats and dropped my mains. at least i'm consistent haha. i have different needles (S7) coming tomorrow (fingers crossed for today tho) which should richen up the whole midrange. (thanks sean). so lots to try out there.

just a couple questions for you guys, hopefully shed some light?


1. does symptom 1 sound rich or lean?
2. above what RPM's are a/f screws pointless? Like i know they help low end cruise (right)? but are they useless at troubleshooting 5k rpm cruise? i think the 5k rpm cruise is mostly needle right?
3. does it sound like i'm consistently lean now?
4. i know my float levels aren't perfect, but they should be close enough right? since my manual says 16mm +- 1mm

 

[44 magnum]

I'm sure I'll get my hand smacked if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell, the mixture screws only address off-idle throttle response. I'm guessing anything over 1800-2000.

Your float levels are within spec now, so I think you can safely cross them off your list.

As for the question of, does it sound as though I'm consistently lean now... If that's the case your plugs will show it. Pull 'em off and take a peek-see, then let us know what you find.

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