Gen 2 Engine Build

[one2dmax]

Here's the second engine for us to work on. This one came as a complete bike to me with it locked up (on it's way TO get the recall work done). Will try and get it the rest of the way apart over the weekend and see if I can figure out why it failed. Then we have to see what can be done to fix it up (or work with Yamaha to get it replaced).

Sean

 

[one2dmax]

For those that want to see the internals of the engine (and some pics of how to get there)

 

[one2dmax]

For those that want to see Carnage

 

[dannymax]

Jeez, what a mess! :sad2:

 

[thor_eyerdhal]

What was the cause?

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Wow that's just nasty. Any clue on how the events or conditions leading up to failure?


I'm amazed to see how closely the design seems to follow the original. Other than cam drive set up I don't see much basic design changes. Just bigger and sturdier.

Still more proof they got it right back in 85

 

[Chopcor]

Whole bunch of expensive door stops, there... Wow! Makes me wanna cry!

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Well that thing got abused, either that or really bad parts...

 

[jagco1]

For those that want to see Carnage

Wow what happen to the motor.

 

[mr.maxx]

Well that thing got abused, either that or really bad parts...

agreed. looks suspicious

 

[dannymax]

There is an oil pump recall on the '09's, the guy was on his way to the dealer to get the work done when, apparently, the pump failed. Talk about ********* luck!! :bang head:

 

[jbretthorton]

yeah... I call ********* on that one... There has never been a pump failure BEFORE the recall... now after some very bad mechanics did the recall incorrectly.... many bad motors...

 

[Itgoes]

yeah... I call ********* on that one... There has never been a pump failure BEFORE the recall... now after some very bad mechanics did the recall incorrectly.... many bad motors...

+1 True!

 

[one2dmax]

The engine ran out of oil pressure (plenty of oil in the crankcase) before the main failure of the rod. The customer was unable to get off the road immediately once he heard the engine knocking (was on the freeway). Had this been a failure due to hard riding and the crank/rod failed firstm there would not have been all the galling on the cams as we see here. So, in my opinion there was a lack of oil pressure first then failure of other parts after that.

Something caused the recall in the first place (an oil pump failure somewhere in the world) so I don't see why it is so inconceivable that it could not have happened again in this instance.

Also, to note, There hasn't even been many failures after the recall work was done (2 that I am aware of and I have one of those engines in my possession as well). Either way these engines are FAR more durable then the gen 1 and I know this is an anomaly that isn't indicative of the quality that is built into these.

I am unsure if I can salvage this set of cases but will be looking deeply into it to decide if it can/should be done. Worst damage is to that one cylinder (which most of the damage will come out with the removal of the sleeve) and the damage I am most concerned with is to the counter balancer bearing saddles in the block.

Check out the gen 1 vs gen 2 trans pics to get an idea how much larger the gears are.

 

[dannymax]

yeah... I call ********* on that one... There has never been a pump failure BEFORE the recall... now after some very bad mechanics did the recall incorrectly.... many bad motors...

I seriously doubt Yamaha would go to the huge expensive of issuing that recall without a good reason, for sure some oil pump failures occured somewhere! As you can see from this CR article there are several 'variants' affected....whatever that means...:confused2:

Maybe there are several other Yamaha bikes that share the same oil pump design..:ummm:

Recall: Yamaha VMX17 motorcycles—possible engine stall



Consumer Reports News: September 30, 2011 12:23 PM

Yamaha is recalling 2,300 VMX17 (V-MAX) motorcycles, because high oil pressure inside the oil pump can cause it to malfunction. If oil stops pumping through the engine, severe engine damage can occur, causing the engine to stall and not restart again, increasing the risk of a crash.
Certain Yamaha motorcycles from model year 2009 to 2011 are affected by this recall, including the YB, YCB, ZR, ZCR, AG and ACG variants.
The safety recall is expected to begin in October. Yamaha dealers will replace the oil pump for free.

 

[davesax36]

Yeah, causing it to "stall"..."and not start again." I think this is a BIT misleading. Shouldn't it say causing the engine to seize/implode/become a 250lb paperweight/etc...

 

[jbretthorton]

Well I guess you guys are correct then... Mark and I have been breathing and eating these bikes for over three years... We would not know anything about them...
I stand corrected

 

[Itgoes]

The engine ran out of oil pressure (plenty of oil in the crankcase) before the main failure of the rod. The customer was unable to get off the road immediately once he heard the engine knocking (was on the freeway). Had this been a failure due to hard riding and the crank/rod failed firstm there would not have been all the galling on the cams as we see here. So, in my opinion there was a lack of oil pressure first then failure of other parts after that.

Something caused the recall in the first place (an oil pump failure somewhere in the world) so I don't see why it is so inconceivable that it could not have happened again in this instance.

Also, to note, There hasn't even been many failures after the recall work was done (2 that I am aware of and I have one of those engines in my possession as well). Either way these engines are FAR more durable then the gen 1 and I know this is an anomaly that isn't indicative of the quality that is built into these.

I am unsure if I can salvage this set of cases but will be looking deeply into it to decide if it can/should be done. Worst damage is to that one cylinder (which most of the damage will come out with the removal of the sleeve) and the damage I am most concerned with is to the counter balancer bearing saddles in the block.

Check out the gen 1 vs gen 2 trans pics to get an idea how much larger the gears are.

Sean, I guess there could have been a failure of the original pump....but it would be the first confirmed one I've heard of, and believe me I'm on top of this stuff.

There have been at least 6 documented (I have to go back and count) failures AFTER the recall was done.....each at a different incompetent Yamaha dealership.

The other scary thing is that a number of those bikes are unaccounted for.....in some cases they may have been put back together and re-sold. That may be the situation with the engine you have........unless he is the original owner there is know way of knowing without having the history.

Just as I'm writing this I was thinking you could look a t the part# on the oil pump and see which one it is.....the original or the recall replacement.


And you are right as I've been saying since I got mine these bikes are really "over built". That's also where the extra weight comes from......take a look at the shaft drive parts as well, extremely well built and HEAVY.

 

[one2dmax]

EDIT - This is the original owner! - I understand your sentiment that surely this must have been an abused bike. But, I can pretty much assure you that the hardest this bike was ridden was by me when it was almost new. It's not been drag raced and hasn't even had many tires replaced in the 17k miles the bike has on it.

The complete internal failure with the rod breaking and block destruction was for sure caused by running the bike far too long once it started making noise (as mentioned he was trying to get off the expressway). Had he pulled over when the noise first started the engine would be in a lot better shape (though the galling and damage to the crank/rods would still be there).

Am I incorrect that there have been a total of 2 (maybe 3) failures after the dealer did the rework?

These engines have had a ton of hard testing and riding by many owners like yourself, ted, Mark, and others I know of without any problems. BUT, that doesn't mean **** doesn't just happen.

I have seen this time and time again with the Gen 1 (and failures to guys that babied the bikes) so it is not that hard to believe that this guy could have the same happen to his bike.

Though I have not had the experience of getting many of these engines apart I would almost bet I have more then you do (Have you taken apart one yourself yet?). I also am around these bikes on a regular basis though I don't have one myself. Of course that wouldn't matter as I don't ride my own gen 1 much more then 1000 miles a year. Based on that logic I would have almost zero experience with them.

This is the first engine I have removed from a gen 2 chassis and I have to say what a cluster of **** to get it out. Not bad but just a lot of stuff. Of course they had to pack that stuff in somewhere so not much can or should be done about it. The average guy is going to have a tough time with these bikes doing an engine removal because there is no centerstand, the rear wheel/swingarm is supposed to come off (though it doesn't), and there is just not quite enough clearance to get the engine out without taking off the front fender to keep from damaging it. Of course, where there is a will there is a way.

The internals of this engine are far similar to the gen 1 but on a much more robust scale (except the rods which I just don't fully understand). I do like what I see in general and congrats to the engineers. But, the power is only proportional to the engine cc's so they really didn't gain a lot over the last 25-30 years with the technology improvements which I am still disapointed in (though I still like their power and potential when doing upgrades).

The old 1200cc made 110-115rwhp which is .092 hp per cc.
The new 1700 makes in the 165-170rwhp which is .097 per cc.
Compare this to the 2009 R1 which bone stock makes about 145rwhp in 1000cc's.
This is the equivalent to .145 hp per cc.

If the R1 had the same cc's as the gen 2 it would make 246 rwhp! This is what I would have expected with all the new technology that the gen 2 was supposed to have.

 

[dannymax]

Well I guess you guys are correct then... Mark and I have been breathing and eating these bikes for over three years... We would not know anything about them...
I stand corrected

Nobody is questioning your knowledge, or calling '*********' to your remarks.