Gurue ECU?

[rebeltaz83]

I stopped by the local Dyno to see what he charges. Just under half of what Tim charges. He uses woolworth? Software. It's Japanese to me, I'm not sure what's out there what's better than the other. He's done other gen 2s so he's familiar with them. Says I might not need a PC-V being an 18 he has to contact his provider to see if the current software he has will work. Otherwise I'll need a PC-V and it'll be about the same as what Tim charges. And I don't have to pull my ECU, and ship it, I've even thought about loading it up and driving to Tim's and have him reflash it so I don't have to ship it, lol. He was on his way out to rescue somebody stranded along the side road, and still have me 10-15 minutes to talk about what he does, and how he does it. I'm thinking I'm gonna give him a shot, seemed real honest, down to earth. Big into racing, seemed to be real knowledgeable. And it's only 10 minutes down the road.

 

[Itgoes]

Good luck, I hope you don't end up on the list of owners that had to pay twice. Once to give someone a shot and then once to Gurued Gear to fix a mess.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Good luck, I hope you don't end up on the list of owners that had to pay twice. Once to give someone a shot and then once to Gurued Gear to fix a mess.

Yeah, that's in the back of my mind, lol. This is when I miss the carb. Change a few Jets, move a needle clip. A bit of a pita, but something that could be done at home.

 

[one2dmax]

Keep in mind that the PC-V and most other software doesn't change the base programming that Tim's reflash changes. Things like the 50% throttle limitations in first gear and the top end speed limiter and individual cylinder turning that he did for his base maps. Tim suggests to use BOTH his reflash and the PC-V in conjunction to get the maximum potential from the machine.

 

[bsbllctchr]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but does the guru flash help or hurt fuel mileage? 100mi trip is typically what I got before the flash and was wondering if I'd have to plan more gas stops in or not

 

[Ukemax]

Tim has reflashed my ECU twice for two different exhausts. My advice would be to have Tim do it. You won't be disappointed.

 

[rebeltaz83]

He says he can do all that, before I could ask him. Change the top speed limiter, ignition timing, cooling fan temp. Individual cylinder mapping, turn off ais. Bottom end restriction. He showed me pics. Of the different things on his phone. I'm not knocking Tim, I know he has countless hours, working with the Vmax ECU. I'm having a hard time grasping the cost. $600+ to send it to Tim, and another $600+ for the PC-V and Dyno time............... Is it not like a car where you just remap the ECU on the Dyno for highest H.P. and torque numbers while keeping safe afr numbers?? I know Tim is keeping it conservative to cover his arse. What if I personally trailered my Vmax to Tim?? Would he be able to dial it in without a PC-V?? It's allot of cabbage just for a bunch of software rewriting. I haven't been to a Dyno. So I'm sure there is more to it than I'm thinking. Not trying to step on toes, just having a hard time understanding I guess. $300 vs. $1,200??

 

[Itgoes]

"Is it not like a car where you just remap the ECU on the Dyno for highest H.P. and torque numbers while keeping safe afr numbers??"

Well no it's not. To properly tune you need to adjust at all throttle percentage inputs at all rpm. Maps can have differences based on what gear the bike is in.

So like what is the correct fueling and timing @ 80% throttle and 7000 rpm? How about @ 20% throttle at 3000 rpm in 5th gear? What throttle opening will work best at WOT in 1st gear right off idle?

Don't forget what your wrist does has little to do with what the actual throttle position ends up being.......the ECU is in between your wrist and the TB and fuel injectors. It's more complex than you may think...... especially to get it right.

Unless he is offering " Autotuning " your bike on a dyno, which is a pretty laborious process you're not getting any bargain.

An ECU cannot be adjusted on the fly.....first a shitload of data has to be accumulated while it's on the dyno, and then analyzed. Then changes can be made to the BIN file and then that file can be sent to the ECU with a reflash.

My guess is he already has a "performance"flash file that he'll load on your ECU and be done. To custom tune your bike I suspect will cost much more, if he even has that capability.

I could be wrong, but I've already seen this movie multiple times over the years.

Just make sure you educate yourself self and ask the right questions.

If he truly is doing a full ECU tune on your bike, using a dyno, then $300 is a steal. IF he knows what he is doing.

 

[rebeltaz83]

"Is it not like a car where you just remap the ECU on the Dyno for highest H.P. and torque numbers while keeping safe afr numbers??"

Well no it's not. To properly tune you need to adjust at all throttle percentage inputs at all rpm. Maps can have differences based on what gear the bike is in.

So like what is the correct fueling and timing @ 80% throttle and 7000 rpm? How about @ 20% throttle at 3000 rpm in 5th gear? What throttle opening will work best at WOT in 1st gear right off idle?

Don't forget what your wrist does has little to do with what the actual throttle position ends up being.......the ECU is in between your wrist and the TB and fuel injectors. It's more complex than you may think...... especially to get it right.

Unless he is offering " Autotuning " your bike on a dyno, which is a pretty laborious process you're not getting any bargain.

An ECU cannot be adjusted on the fly.....first a shitload of data has to be accumulated while it's on the dyno, and then analyzed. Then changes can be made to the BIN file and then that file can be sent to the ECU with a reflash.

My guess is he already has a "performance"flash file that he'll load on your ECU and be done. To custom tune your bike I suspect will cost much more, if he even has that capability.

I could be wrong, but I've already seen this movie multiple times over the years.

Just make sure you educate yourself self and ask the right questions.

If he truly is doing a full ECU tune on your bike, using a dyno, then $300 is a steal. IF he knows what he is doing.

Thanks it goes. I'm still learning all this reflash, mapping, everything involved with the process. I specifically asked him if he does "Dyno tuning" he said yes. It may be a preloaded tune, because it was another $100 if he had to do it with the PC-V. I tried looking up the woolworth software he said he uses, but I couldn't find anything. Sounds like majority of the cost is in labor, understandable. I used to work in a garage/body shop. Never got into the performance side, it was a privately owned shop in the country, and nobody wanted a faster car lol. Half the time we didn't charge for all of our time just because it couldn't be justified. It sounds I should ask him if he is going to put it on a dyno, or if it's a preloaded tune. Hope I'm not irritating anybody, I'm still learning.

 

[Itgoes]

Hope I'm not irritating anybody, I'm still learning.

LOL.....not irritating me.

Since the Gen 2 has been out I've seen two different things owners have had happen to their bikes that were really bad.

One was multiple engines being destroyed because dealers didn't do a recall for the oil pump correctly.

The other is a handful of owners that had their ECU's reflashed somewhere other than Gurued Gear. Several that left their bikes running worse than before the re-flash, and at least one that wouldn't run at all.

The software company you are talking about is spelled Woolwich. They are fairly well known and I have no reason to believe that their software isn't a good tuning tool.
I actually have it installed on my laptop for several years now, it was free to download but you need to pay to play. I also have ROM RAIDER software which is even more flexible but more complicated to use. I only have them out of curiosity because I was very interested in what the programs inside an ECU looked like and what could be adjusted. I even have a stock BIN file and a "performance" BIN file. I can't do anything even if I wanted to with what I have without the hardware and unlock key to connect to the ECU.

So the question is - is he only going to download some general performance tune into your ECU....(5-10 minute process) or is he going to actually tune your bike spending several hours on the dyno and, does he know what he's doing.

If it's just a download you should demand a money back guarantee if you are not happy.

I don't remember anyone that got burned getting their money back. That's why I mentioned paying once instead of twice.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Woolich, that's why I can't find anything, lol. Sounds like Woolrich with the southern draw lol. I was thinking to myself when did a clothing store get into flashing ECUs?? lol. I'll be sure to find out a definite yes or no on the generic performance flash, or a full on Dyno tune. Starting to sound like it's getting sent to Tim, and eventually I'll get a PC-V and full on Dyno tune. Do you know of anybody that got the Woolich tune?? There must be some, because he said he's done a few, I would like to find out who, and bend their ear. But I don't think that's gonna happen.
Finally found it on Google, found a thread on here back from 2014 with a link to woolich and a video. Nothing about disabling ais, just a check box for the speed limiter doesn't go into detail. Not allot of detail when I searched for Vmax either, and it looks like something I could do here at home if I got the cables for a computer............... He could dial it in by the looks if he spent time, but he's still locked out on some things. I'm just gonna send it Tim, to many unknowns, price sounds good but I'm getting what I'm paying for either way I go. And I know what I'm getting with gurued. Woolich hasn't updated the Vmax since 2016, and I know they are all the same but it seems they would keep it updated. I know there are thousands of motorcycles, but it shares R1 tech. The R1 is a big name in the sport bike community so it seems there would be more detail into what they do with the tune.

 

[Ukemax]

Tim's flash may seem high, I thought the same thing at first. Then I thought about it. Tim should be compensated for all his R & D. There is no other company/tuner that I am aware of that has spent as much time with a Gen 2 on almost every available exhaust system. The Gen 2 is truly a unique bike with very few out there compared to most sport bikes. So most tuners are not going to spend the necessary time because the market is so small and will not get back the investment. At the end of the day I knew I was paying more, but the value was truly there as I knew that my reflash was well thought out, and researched, not just a quick one to offer something to sell.

We have very unique beasts.

Owning a Gen 2 you are part of a very small community. This forum is truly the best sounding board out there. Sean just recently helped me with my exhaust and Mark has helped me some of my questions here and on the old Star Vmax Forum (RIP- a true wealth of info on the Gen 2).

Trust the advice being given, as it is truly the best.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Tim's flash may seem high, I thought the same thing at first. Then I thought about it. Tim should be compensated for all his R & D. There is no other company/tuner that I am aware of that has spent as much time with a Gen 2 on almost every available exhaust system. The Gen 2 is truly a unique bike with very few out there compared to most sport bikes. So most tuners are not going to spend the necessary time because the market is so small and will not get back the investment. At the end of the day I knew I was paying more, but the value was truly there as I knew that my reflash was well thought out, and researched, not just a quick one to offer something to sell.

We have very unique beasts.

Owning a Gen 2 you are part of a very small community. This forum is truly the best sounding board out there. Sean just recently helped me with my exhaust and Mark has help me some of my questions here and on the old Star Vmax Forum (RIP- a true wealth of info on the Gen 2).

Trust the advice being given, as it is truly the best.

I absolutely agree, Tim has hours and hours of his time dedicated to the second gen. With basically every mod you can do setup with a flash. I'm seeing first hand now how much more in depth he went compared to a "generic" flash. It's going to Tim, no doubt. Atleast I'll have piece of mind knowing I won't have anything to worry about. And I can get the PC-V later and get it dialed in for the maximum performance. Plus any mods I might do later are only $45. Might ship it out Monday, suppose to be a nice weekend so I can get the ECU out, and packaged up, boxed up, and ready to go.

 

[Ukemax]

Just like you I do want to do the PCV 5 and a fine tune, to be honest it runs great with the flash. But I know I can squeeze a few more HP with a dyno tune.....lol

 

[rebeltaz83]

I was hoping I could just get the ECU Dyno tuned, and not have to piggy back off the PC-V, but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. It's all good either way, I was just trying to skip a step, and try to save a little money, lol. Is the PC-V autotune? Or does it need to be mapped as well?? I'm just curious, Tim has maps on his website for the PC-V that's why I ask. From what I have read the PC-V almost acts like a programmer for a car/truck.

 

[Ukemax]

My understanding is the PCV is not auto tune.

 

[rebeltaz83]

I didn't think it was, but I thought I'd check. Thanks!!

 

[one2dmax]

Keep in mind Tim wore out a Gen 2 with nothing but DYNO TIME! Thousands of miles on the dyno rollers testing and retesting all sorts of combinations to get it just right.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Keep in mind Tim wore out a Gen 2 with nothing but DYNO TIME! Thousands of miles on the dyno rollers testing and retesting all sorts of combinations to get it just right.

Dyno time!!! Makes me think of that movie where that guy goes around saying DYNOMITE!!!! lol. Thanks Sean, I knew he had allot time on the Dyno, but I didn't know he wore one out on just Dyno runs alone. I'm prolly gonna submit my order this weekend, and get the ECU out. And get it shipped Monday!!! I'm anxious to see just how much it wakes it up.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

I originally had my Vmax's ECU tuned by FTECU, which cost me around $200 if I recall correctly. It was better than stock, but despite me sending back my ECU several times to be reflashed, they never could get it "good enough". I too had a hard time swallowing $550 for what is essentially a canned tune (one that was written using someone else's bike and not optimized for my machine), but it was either that or just not be okay with the rideability of my Vmax. I still think that the price is kind of high but there are no other decent options, so it is what it is. I'd rather have an expensive option than no option.

There are two things that aren't addressed by the Guru tunes that I wish were. Throttle response is still a little too touchy at light throttle openings. For example, when cruising at 90-100mph indicated, the engine is turning around 5000rpm, and gusts of wind or bumps in the road that make my throttle hand twitch slightly will result in noticeable changes in bike speed. I installed a throttle tamer, which made it better to the point that I'd call it "good enough", but not good enough that I'm happy with it. I'd like to see the throttle response in the tune dialed back until at least half throttle.

The other thing I'd like to see addressed is the speedo. The speedo is optimistic by something like 10%, meaning that 100mph indicated is more like 90mph actual. If I recall correctly, Tim said that the speedo was tied into other parts of the tune and that therefore multiple things would need to be changed in order to correct the speedo, which made it prohibitively difficult.

Bottom line, the Guru tune is the only solution to get the Vmax tune as close to right as possible.