Harley...blind, deaf and dumb?! RANT!

[Heretic]

Anyone who reads my posts here knows I dislike Hardley-Parkinson, but I am an American. I would love to have an American motorcycle that I would want to ride. A 50hp 850lb pile of lead doesn't do it for me. Buell is trying, but I can't get over the 'Marvin the Martian' look. I thought it was a disgrace that HD and Buell had to go to another continent to have someone design an engine that could actually produce real power and stay together for more than 10,000 miles for their V-Rod and 1125R models. Hell, we built the space shuttle and the Bomb! Can't we home grow a real f^&kin motorcycle engine!!! I am coming to a point...

I was looking at the Confederate Motorcycles web page and the delicious Renovatio. It states there that they will be utilizing a GM based water cooled 103 cu in V-Twin putting out 150hp and 190hp with an optional turbo. The engine is said to be basically two cylinders from the GM LS7 and will be built by Detroit based Kaytech. Kaytech is the company that develops the engines for concept cars and race engines for GM. Can someone here tell me WHY Harley couldn't do something like this?? :bang head: At least this engine wouldn't violate their faithful base, and it might finally prove the Red White and Blue can make a motorcycle that isn't the laughing stock of the world...

http://www.confederate.com/confederate2/c2-links/machines-renovatio.html

http://www.mslmagazine.co.uk/features/confederate_motorcycles.htm

 

[maleko89]

Howard, Harley's are up to 60 horse now...or equivelant to a 1962 Honda Dream.

:biglaugh:

 

[Buster Hymen]

You're not their target market, that is why HD isn't in the HP race. Unlike the Japanese makers, where HP numbers are a focus of their marketing, Harley has established their market and cater to what they want. I don't know about the "laughing stock of the world" angle, it almost seems like it is "fashionable" to bash Harley.

 

[Heretic]

You're not their target market, that is why HD isn't in the HP race. Unlike the Japanese makers, where HP numbers are a focus of their marketing, Harley has established their market and cater to what they want. I don't know about the "laughing stock of the world" angle, it almost seems like it is "fashionable" to bash Harley.

I was specifically targeting the V-Rod and the Buell 1125R which both have Euro designed engines and are being marketed by their HP/performance numbers.

 

[113s&s]

Harley does have 103 and 110 ci motors to keep up with the after market hp game running between 100 to 120 plus hp and 120 tq....there stock 96 ci motors run 80 hp 100 tq atleast harley keeps making bikes for there followers and trys to keeps making improvements .....what did yamaha do with the vmax gave you the same bike year after year then just stopped production ...when the vmax first came out harleys where at 50 hp then 60 then in the late 90s and 2000 80 hp plus to over 110 hp if you want...lets face it yamaha did nothing for the vmax faithfull for close to 25 years...then they folded up the max like a old two dollar bill ...thats the difference between harley and yamaha

 

[themattreid]

Harley's aren't about HP and performance, they sell to (mainly) middle aged corporate guys that are having a middle age crisis and want to be young again and *ride the dream*. Problem is the bikes are underpowered, over priced, and tend to attract overweight riders with a tendency to buy fringed leather everything.

And then they have the gall to not wave at the vmax riders!! Maybe we don't sport enough chrome???!?!

 

[themattreid]

Harley does have 103 and 110 ci motors to keep up with the after market hp game running between 100 to 120 plus hp and 120 tq....there stock 96 ci motors run 80 hp 100 tq atleast harley keeps making bikes for there followers and trys to keeps making improvements .....what did yamaha do with the vmax gave you the same bike year after year then just stopped production ...when the vmax first came out harleys where at 50 hp then 60 then in the late 90s and 2000 80 hp plus to over 110 hp if you want...lets face it yamaha did nothing for the vmax faithfull for close to 25 years...then they folded up the max like a old two dollar bill ...thats the difference between harley and yamaha

Yamaha didn't change the max because they didn't need to - they started with a perfect bike and left the changes to customizing with smaller after-market shops. I see no problem there. In fact I like that it hasn't had any changes. :eusa_dance:

 

[maleko89]

Yeah, much easier to order parts!

 

[Buster Hymen]

I was specifically targeting the V-Rod and the Buell 1125R which both have Euro designed engines and are being marketed by their HP/performance numbers.

The funny thing with those bikes is, with the die hard Harley owners I know, they view them as the "bastard children" of Harley. Most are upset that they went to a liquid cooled motor for the V-Rod! :confused2: That plus it wasn't based on the Evo or something similar.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Harley's aren't about HP and performance, they sell to (mainly) middle aged corporate guys that are having a middle age crisis and want to be young again and *ride the dream*. Problem is the bikes are underpowered, over priced, and tend to attract overweight riders with a tendency to buy fringed leather everything.

And then they have the gall to not wave at the vmax riders!! Maybe we don't sport enough chrome???!?!

Harleys "used" to be about power and performance, with a world dominance in racing of many types until the Japs started kicking their ass, they decided HP wasn't fashionable, and took thier football and went home.

Fortunately for them they HAVE found a market, and I like thier bikes, they are just not for me......


OH, and the 1/4 of a small block chevy thing was being done back in the 70's as a kit, pretty cool then and now I thought, although it didn't have much visual appeal....haven't seen the new one.....

 

[MBreinin]

The funny thing with those bikes is, with the die hard Harley owners I know, they view them as the "bastard children" of Harley. Most are upset that they went to a liquid cooled motor for the V-Rod! :confused2: That plus it wasn't based on the Evo or something similar.

Yeah, my friend with the V-Rod says he gets dissed by Harley guys all of the time. It is a cool bike though. Funny, Porsche designs the engine for Honda, who passes on it and it winds up in a Harley, with a Getrag gearbox. :biglaugh:

Harley should do like many car manufacturers do, and offer a special line of enhanced performance bikes. Something akin to AMG Benz or the M-cars from BMW. They could just offer factory bikes with S&S engines and improved braking and handling. Hw many guys do you think would line up for a Sportster with over 100 HP and torque at the wheel right from Harley?

Mike

 

[Redbone]

Harley does have 103 and 110 ci motors to keep up with the after market hp game running between 100 to 120 plus hp and 120 tq....there stock 96 ci motors run 80 hp 100 tq atleast harley keeps making bikes for there followers and trys to keeps making improvements .....what did yamaha do with the vmax gave you the same bike year after year then just stopped production ...when the vmax first came out harleys where at 50 hp then 60 then in the late 90s and 2000 80 hp plus to over 110 hp if you want...lets face it yamaha did nothing for the vmax faithfull for close to 25 years...then they folded up the max like a old two dollar bill ...thats the difference between harley and yamaha

I like that you can still buy a new Vmax(still quite a few around), a tried and true design. What has HD built that has held such a performance level, were talking factory, not aftermarket here. The Vmax may be a "folded up 2 dollar bill" to you but it still beats the vrod with it's 25 yo design. Yamaha has added plenty of new and improved models over the years.
The biggest changes for HD since, let's say the 70's....is possibly their buyers(followers ). As was mentioned in a earlier post, the typical demographic would be a mid to upper mgmt, doctor, lawyer, or business owner over 40, looking to have more chrome than the next guy in their MC club. HD comes out with a new design and is put down for not following "tradition". :confused2:
My buddy's spend more time looking at and polishing their chrome plated beasts than riding. IMO that's hollywoods version of a biker, not a real motorcycle rider. I like to ride and not have to worry about pulling the cleaning stuff out when you stop to wipe off the bugs on the chrome. No reason to not ride just to wash off the bugs, especially here where you get 5 months of ride time per year. You can typically tell a rider from a biker. A rider will have on the appropiate protective gear and a biker will have on fashion accessories to match the bike or to show attitude.
:th_favorites24:

 

[113s&s]

I like that you can still buy a new Vmax(still quite a few around), a tried and true design. What has HD built that has held such a performance level, were talking factory, not aftermarket here. The Vmax may be a "folded up 2 dollar bill" to you but it still beats the vrod with it's 25 yo design. Yamaha has added plenty of new and improved models over the years.
The biggest changes for HD since, let's say the 70's....is possibly their buyers(followers ). As was mentioned in a earlier post, the typical demographic would be a mid to upper mgmt, doctor, lawyer, or business owner over 40, looking to have more chrome than the next guy in their MC club. HD comes out with a new design and is put down for not following "tradition". :confused2:
My buddy's spend more time looking at and polishing their chrome plated beasts than riding. IMO that's hollywoods version of a biker, not a real motorcycle rider. I like to ride and not have to worry about pulling the cleaning stuff out when you stop to wipe off the bugs on the chrome. No reason to not ride just to wash off the bugs, especially here where you get 5 months of ride time per year. You can typically tell a rider from a biker. A rider will have on the appropiate protective gear and a biker will have on fashion accessories to match the bike or to show attitude.
:th_favorites24:

first im a max man love the bike.. red i couldent tell a rider from a biker from a poser i know yuppie looking guys who ride 30.000 miles a year in all weather on bmw yamaha kawasaki harleys they live for riding mostly guys in there 40 s 50s...but all have one thing in common they respect the man the person not the machine hes on.....im the type even if i had the time to do that kind of riding it would not interest me at all ......the biker or rider thing really comes down to one thing, weather your pilling up mile or cleaning crome if it fills a void in ones life and makes ya happy...tweeks the mind every time you go near the thing..then life is good..........i think most people atleast myself and the people i hang out with ...dont have time for hard core bike shit ..that stuff is just about dead and gone.........

 

[Hulign]

Let me guess Howard... Did you get snubbed by a HD right before you typed this???LOL

As you know I agree with you on a lot of these points.

However the rule of big business shows that if nobody buys you die.

HD has made a huge amount of money off of their Customers (suckers).

The stuff that kills me is they can make cutting corners a selling point. One small front rotor/caliper...this year its to show off the wheel better. Next year when they deem it unsafe and upgrade they advertise new and improved!

You can't fault them completely...we have a ton of them here in town and if it had two rotors up front these idiots would pull one off to show off the wheel.

Change the color/seat and riding height....and BAM new model! Is a bean counters dream!

Yeah I know they make some high HP models now (for a HD) but the screaming eagle dyna was 26,000 dollars. Hell you could buy a Raider to cruise on and a sportbike to scare the crap out of yourself. Oh but wait... then you couldn't be part of the brotherhood.

Here in town they have a couple "MC's" that require you to ride HD... the best part is these big and bad bikers get ready to leave and throw on that fake DOT helmet and jump on their little sporty (hell sometimes its a 1200!) and ride their rebel asses out into the night. Every show or event I have been to there is always one guy left behind...cause the damn thing wouldn't start!

I will never be impressed by something that has 50 HP shitty suspension and lousy brakes. Hell I'll wave and I might even like the looks of some of the customs... but i get more excited over a clean old Vespa it takes real balls to ride one of those in traffic!


Frank

 

[maleko89]

Let me guess Howard... Did you get snubbed by a HD right before you typed this???LOL

As you know I agree with you on a lot of these points.

However the rule of big business shows that if nobody buys you die.

HD has made a huge amount of money off of their Customers (suckers).

The stuff that kills me is they can make cutting corners a selling point. One small front rotor/caliper...this year its to show off the wheel better. Next year when they deem it unsafe and upgrade they advertise new and improved!

You can't fault them completely...we have a ton of them here in town and if it had two rotors up front these idiots would pull one off to show off the wheel.

Change the color/seat and riding height....and BAM new model! Is a bean counters dream!

Yeah I know they make some high HP models now (for a HD) but the screaming eagle dyna was 26,000 dollars. Hell you could buy a Raider to cruise on and a sportbike to scare the crap out of yourself. Oh but wait... then you couldn't be part of the brotherhood.

Here in town they have a couple "MC's" that require you to ride HD... the best part is these big and bad bikers get ready to leave and throw on that fake DOT helmet and jump on their little sporty (hell sometimes its a 1200!) and ride their rebel asses out into the night. Every show or event I have been to there is always one guy left behind...cause the damn thing wouldn't start!

I will never be impressed by something that has 50 HP shitty suspension and lousy brakes. Hell I'll wave and I might even like the looks of some of the customs... but i get more excited over a clean old Vespa it takes real balls to ride one of those in traffic!


Frank

Frank, I still like what you told me after riding my brothers Screamin' Eagle Fat Boy. "I have never felt so cool riding so slow."

lol

 

[KJShover]

they advertise new and improved!

Dosn't that mean the price just went up, no matter what the product?

 

[Shuriken]

"I have never felt so cool riding so slow."

:rofl_200:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Of Several of the places I "bar hop" at around here, when I don't have time for a good ride but just want to get out of the house for an hour or so, two of them are real hard core dirt bag biker hang outs, usually populated with Bandidos, Freewheeler, Pistolas and the like. Guys who were once dirt bag 1%'s but grew up and started paying thier bills, there are a few bad apples but for the most part I get along with these guys and get a lot more respect from them than I ever have from some of the "RUB" type guys.

It Never fails, especially since I've modified the headlight, side scoops, and tail piece to the point that to anyone except guys like us that the bike is not really recognizable as a Vmax, that they'll pass up most of the bikes in the parking lot, walk around mine a couple of times and then ask "what the hell is that, I like it"

Once they find out what it is, even the Hardcore H-D guys, they usually have something very nice to say about it and Vmaxes in general. The "RUB" crowd on the other hand seems to have a totally different attitude.

Most of these guys truly believe it's about riding and not what your riding.

Usually a bunch of very nice guys once you get past the gruff exterior.

Something else I've noticed lately is that a lot of these same guys are moving to hot-rodded sportsters to get away from the "rub" crowd who generally think the Sportster is a "girls" bike.

I use to be really down on Harleys until I realized that the primitveness of them IS thier appeal.

To me the coolest airplane in the world is a 9 cylinder radial 450 horse Stearman Wood and canvass Bi-plane (my brother owns one), it's about as primitive as they come, but the feel and sound of them is more visceral than anything out there, and it will only fly about 115knots.

When I put the analogy of the two together I can see why some people DO like their Harleys. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about speed. Sometimes it's about the simple, stupid smile it puts on your face.

I've seriously considered buying a H-D but for right now there just too slow for how I want to ride right now, but I can easily see there appeal for others.

And despite what many think, there current product is infinitely more reliable than years past.

 

[QuarterHorse]

Yamaha didn't change the max because they didn't need to - they started with a perfect bike and left the changes to customizing with smaller after-market shops. I see no problem there. In fact I like that it hasn't had any changes. :eusa_dance:

Apparently they did need to change it. Take a look at sales figures for the Max as the years went on. The public got bored with it, and quit buying them. '07 Sales didn't break 500 units. That's why they don't make it, and won't make the concept version either.

 

[113s&s]

Apparently they did need to change it. Take a look at sales figures for the Max as the years went on. The public got bored with it, and quit buying them. '07 Sales didn't break 500 units. That's why they don't make it, and won't make the concept version either.

great point quarter...they focused on the sport line.... and the vtwin line to get some of the harley crowd...leaving the faithfull vmax followers behind..has to be the only bike made that never evolved ...sorry boys but yamaha sold the vmax out for the vtwin crowd ..Now i see why so many are down on the vtwin crowd....