Identifying steering wobble

[one2dmax]

These bikes are made for the average rider and works fine in most situations. However, if you want to improve them above the factory then you don't wait for a TSB to come around. From your statement you already were breaking the law so no TSB would have been even thought of had you done a legal - normal pass. If you want to continue riding aggresively you have a few options:

1 - buy an R1 (if you want to stay yamaha). This bike was built for manuvers much like you mentioned. The Vmax was built for cruising even though it has the power to move like a smaller sportbike.

2 - update it with what many enthusiasts have learned over the last 20+ years. First, running air in the forks is a simple bandaid to cover weakness that was designed to give a cushy ride for the old farts. Go to a heavier weight oil and heavier front springs. This will make the bike ride stiffer but give you more feel and control.

Check you tires for wear and pressure. The rear should be around 38psi and the front around 40-42. Any lower then that and you have more sidewall flex. Makes for a softer ride but again your riding style sounds a bit more aggressive.

Lowering the forks does change the COG. Actually it also changes the effective rake angle. The bike will "steer in" easier with it lowered in the front (goes back to normal if you lower the rear too). The COG is improved by the lowering of that.

Get a lowered seat from someone like me or others. This also effects the COG for the good.

Make sure the steering head bearings are properly seated. Don't live by the service manual unless you just believe they were gods when the wrote it. Even they ackwoledge they make mistakes and mis judgements from time to time. How do you think they ever find out about it. They get it from feedback. If you want to help get a TSB or even better - a recall - just go ahead like you are and when they get enough fatalities they will change it.

Sean Morley

 

[Thevmaxrider]

I am just going to say AMEN to what Sean and the others have advised here. Yamaha knew that there were issues with handling from day 1. They compromised on the handling to get the ride they wanted. Proper steering head bearing adjustment, proper tire pressure, and tire replacement when necessary will help alleviate/prevent the dreaded wobbles. Lowering your forks in the triples, solid motor mounts or frame braces, better springs, et al are things that work to in conjunction to correct the known handling problems. There are thousands of posts on multiple forums that discuss your problem, but the resolutions to it are all right here in this thread.

 

[COP RUNNER]

THANKYOU SEAN MORLEY & THEVMAXRIDER , WELL SAID ! I WAS'NT TRYING TO BE A DICK ! AND I NO YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT CAN'T MAKE HIM DRINK , BUT THEN THE HORSE SHOULD'NT ASK TO BE TAKEN TO THE WATER FOR A DRINK ! BUT THE PLASTIC JESUS THING WAS FUNNY !:rofl_200:

 

[gleno]

All suggestions made so far do improve the handling.

Now consider this. The XS1100 had an almost identical swingarm and driveline to the V-Max.

It also had the 'weaving' behaviour and wallowed like a fish swimming in sweeping bends ('a smooth side to side sinusoidal wave motion').

It is a characteristic of these types of shaft driven bike. Hit the gas and the rear end will rise on the drive (called shaft jacking) get off the gas and the rear end sits down again.

You can prove this to yourself by going through a left or right had sweeper in too high a gear or too low RPM's so that the bike is almost coasting and not being driven through the corner. You can induce the wallow at will to a greater or lesser degree. It's always there.

Given the fact that shaft jacking is always there as a dynamic handling input it can amplify faults on a bike with incorrectly adjusted tyre pressures, worn tyres, loose or overtightened steering head bearings, swingarm bearings, middle drive lash etc etc. i.e. it will amplify the weaknesses.

Most V-Max riders will discover front end head shake at speed or hard acceleration because the steering head bearings are loose or worn.

Most V-max riders will discover the wallow when they are into a highway sweeper and have to back-off the gas or over commit to a corner and have to change their line (while getting off the throttle).

To get the best out of the V-max you have to pick your lines and DRIVE it through a bend. Get off the gas and you get the reverse of shaft jacking and are dropping the rear end.

That's like changing your shock settings and ride heights halfway through a turn.

If you want to avoid the wallow stay on the gas and keep your revs up even if that means dropping down a gear.

 

[naughtyG]

That's a really interesting post Gleno! So by what you're saying, if one was to lose the shaft and do a chain transmission mod it could well get rid of the high speed bend wallows of the Max?

 

[gleno]

All other things being equal. BMW, Moto Guzzi and Kawasaki spent millions on R&D to develop 'anti-jacking' shaft drives.

You can minimise the effect of shaft jacking with different rear shocks. See a suspension tuner and ask for a solution that does just that.

It would be good to hear from anyone who has a chain drive conversion on a max.

 

[Shuriken]

All suggestions made so far do improve the handling.

Now consider this. The XS1100 had an almost identical swingarm and driveline to the V-Max.

It also had the 'weaving' behaviour and wallowed like a fish swimming in sweeping bends ('a smooth side to side sinusoidal wave motion').

Gleno is right about the XS1100. I owned and rode an '80 standard model and a '79 special model for years. I got such a bad speed wobble in a long sweeping turn that I had to straighten up the XS and run it off the turn into the grass.... was NOT fun...

I just replaced the bald IRC rear tire with an ME880 and that really helped, but I can tell the front end is loose.... need a good front tire now and to address the steering head...

 

[maxcruiser]

All other things being equal. BMW, Moto Guzzi and Kawasaki spent millions on R&D to develop 'anti-jacking' shaft drives.

You can minimise the effect of shaft jacking with different rear shocks. See a suspension tuner and ask for a solution that does just that.

It would be good to hear from anyone who has a chain drive conversion on a max.

Gleno, well written and I agreed with the comment of the shaft jacking and that the frame/swingarm design is the same between the xs & vmax. This design dates back to the mid 70's.

I know that you put on an Otec swingarm awhile back and some solid motor mounts - can you give us some feedback on how much improvement these mods have over stock in regards to these handle issues.

Mike

 

[COP RUNNER]

IT'S WEIRD HOW IT VARY'S FROM BIKE TO BIKE ( JUST WITH A DIFFERENT OWNER ):ummm::confused2: , I HAD A 79 XS1100 FOR YEARS , ( A PICTURE IS IN MY ALBUMS ) , RAN THE COP'S NUMEROUS TIMES , USED TO DRAG RACE IT ALL THE TIME , HEAVY & SLOW , 12:40'S , I WAS THE BURNOUT KING , PUT 6 NEW BACK TIRES ON THIS BIKE IN 16,000 - 17,000 MILES & NEVER NOT ONCE HAD HEAD SHAKE ! I'D EVEN GO TO VIRGINA & BACK 14 HOURS ROUND TRIP IN ONE DAY , ONLY STOPPED FOR GAS & FOOD ! AND THANK GOD IT HAS'NT HAPPENED , ON MY 2006 MAX ! BUT THERES GUYS ON HERE WITH 2006'S THAT HAVE THE WOBBLE , I DONT NO , IT JUST WEIRD !

 

[COP RUNNER]

I TOTALLY GOT LOST FOR A MINUTE ! , I THOUGHT SHAFT JACKING WAS SOMETHING ME & MY WIFE DO !:rofl_200::biglaugh::rofl_200:

 

[44 magnum]

I TOTALLY GOT LOST FOR A MINUTE ! , I THOUGHT SHAFT JACKING WAS SOMETHING ME & MY WIFE DO !:rofl_200::biglaugh::rofl_200:

Dude, between this comment and the plastic Jesus comment from yesterday, you crack me up!

 

[gleno]

IT'S WEIRD HOW IT VARY'S FROM BIKE TO BIKE ( JUST WITH A DIFFERENT OWNER ):ummm::confused2: , I HAD A 79 XS1100 FOR YEARS , ( A PICTURE IS IN MY ALBUMS ) , RAN THE COP'S NUMEROUS TIMES , USED TO DRAG RACE IT ALL THE TIME , HEAVY & SLOW , 12:40'S , I WAS THE BURNOUT KING , PUT 6 NEW BACK TIRES ON THIS BIKE IN 16,000 - 17,000 MILES & NEVER NOT ONCE HAD HEAD SHAKE ! I'D EVEN GO TO VIRGINA & BACK 14 HOURS ROUND TRIP IN ONE DAY , ONLY STOPPED FOR GAS & FOOD ! AND THANK GOD IT HAS'NT HAPPENED , ON MY 2006 MAX ! BUT THERES GUYS ON HERE WITH 2006'S THAT HAVE THE WOBBLE , I DONT NO , IT JUST WEIRD !

I never had head shake problems on the XS1100. In fact the front end was super stable and that's probably what kept the bike on the road.

BUT it had a wallow in bends if you backed of the throttle.
If you have ever looked in fish pond and observed a big carp slowly swimming its body appears to move from side to side.

That's the wallow.

The XS1100 was a virtually unbreakable bike so long as you rode it aggressively and stayed on the gas.

I put S&W adjustable air shocks all around and ran them very firm. While that did not eliminate the wallow completely, it did make a huge improvement to the handling and the rear air shocks were so comfortable to ride on.

On one occasion I had a slow air leak in the rear shocks. As soon as they lost enough pressure the wallow would return.

Firmer rear shock settings on standard shocks will help control the wallowing behaviour of your V-max but you will sacrifice some comfort.

 

[COP RUNNER]

I never had head shake problems on the XS1100. In fact the front end was super stable and that's probably what kept the bike on the road.

BUT it had a wallow in bends if you backed of the throttle.
If you have ever looked in fish pond and observed a big carp slowly swimming its body appears to move from side to side.

That's the wallow.

The XS1100 was a virtually unbreakable bike so long as you rode it aggressively and stayed on the gas.

I put S&W adjustable air shocks all around and ran them very firm. While that did not eliminate the wallow completely, it did make a huge improvement to the handling and the rear air shocks were so comfortable to ride on.

On one occasion I had a slow air leak in the rear shocks. As soon as they lost enough pressure the wallow would return.

Firmer rear shock settings on standard shocks will help control the wallowing behaviour of your V-max but you will sacrifice some comfort.

THATS FUNNY , THE WALLOW , THATS THE PERFECT WORD & DESCIPTION , CARP SWIMMING SLOWLY , READING YOUR POST BROUGHT BACK MEMORIES OF THIS , I HAD FORGOTTEN , IT WOULD DO IT IN A LONG SWEEPING TURN IF YOU WERE ON & OFF OF THE THROTTLE , ALMOST FELT LIKE THE SWINGARM WAS MOVING SIDE TO SIDE , BUT IT WAS'NT ! I THOUGHT IT WAS COOL ! LIKE RIDING A BULL ! I KNEW ABOUT THE SHAFT JACKING , ( DID'NT NOW THATS WHAT IT WAS CALLED ) BUT IT NEVER SCARED ME , OR WAS EVER BAD ENOUGH TO THINK THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG ! MAN I MISS THAT BIKE ! THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES GLENO !unk:

 

[Shuriken]

IT'S WEIRD HOW IT VARY'S FROM BIKE TO BIKE ( JUST WITH A DIFFERENT OWNER ):ummm::confused2: , I HAD A 79 XS1100 FOR YEARS , ( A PICTURE IS IN MY ALBUMS ) , RAN THE COP'S NUMEROUS TIMES , USED TO DRAG RACE IT ALL THE TIME , HEAVY & SLOW , 12:40'S , I WAS THE BURNOUT KING , PUT 6 NEW BACK TIRES ON THIS BIKE IN 16,000 - 17,000 MILES & NEVER NOT ONCE HAD HEAD SHAKE ! I'D EVEN GO TO VIRGINA & BACK 14 HOURS ROUND TRIP IN ONE DAY , ONLY STOPPED FOR GAS & FOOD ! AND THANK GOD IT HAS'NT HAPPENED , ON MY 2006 MAX ! BUT THERES GUYS ON HERE WITH 2006'S THAT HAVE THE WOBBLE , I DONT NO , IT JUST WEIRD !

I think both of my XS bikes - the standard and special - didn't have the head shake, but they definitely had frame flex / swingarm problems in the turns. I had my 80g up to 125 once and it was very stable. But when you whack the throttle open, the whole bike stands up - back end and front end. And the XS engine rotation was supposed to help with the jacking problem....

I had a real speed wobble for a period of time and discovered it was caused by a terribly out of balance front tire. New tire and balance solved that. I ran Dunlop K-491 Elite II tires on them and they were great.

I did like the XS bikes. Never once let me down. Built like a tank. And quite powerful when tuned right:

Mine never seemed to run to their full potential....

 

[COP RUNNER]

AND CARRIED ALOT OF FUEL ! unk:

 

[Theemax]

I noticed today I let go of the bars to button my shirt up,(at about 45) and instantly the little wobble started and went way bad in about 3 seconds. So i did it several times with the same result. I have had head shake at high speeds, and while at wot, but this was a different deal. The previous owner gave me the washer fix and directions, but haven't done it yet. Plus the triple clamps have been slid allready, but it likes to wobble'

 

[gleno]

Gleno, well written and I agreed with the comment of the shaft jacking and that the frame/swingarm design is the same between the xs & vmax. This design dates back to the mid 70's.

I know that you put on an Otec swingarm awhile back and some solid motor mounts - can you give us some feedback on how much improvement these mods have over stock in regards to these handle issues.

Mike

Sorry for the late response. I missed this post.

The Otec swingarm and solid mounts made a huge difference. The bike is virtually rigid. Wallowing of it's own accord has been virtually eliminated.

However, I can still make it wallow if I take a sweeper at too high a speed, with to few revs and especially if I back of the throttle under those conditions.

I'll want to raise the rear shocks about and inch and see if that improves things.

 

[naughtyG]

Sorry for the late response. I missed this post.

The Otec swingarm and solid mounts made a huge difference. The bike is virtually rigid. Wallowing of it's own accord has been virtually eliminated.

However, I can still make it wallow if I take a sweeper at too high a speed, with to few revs and especially if I back of the throttle under those conditions.

I'll want to raise the rear shocks about and inch and see if that improves things.

This would point at the shaft drive as the main culprit. The OEM swingarm is most obviously not rigid enough, so bracing it or swapping it for an OTEC looks like it helps with chassis rigidity, but it now seems to me that the one piece of V-Max design that is firmly parked in the '80s (or even '70s) is the shaft drive.

We all know how BMW and Japanese manufacturers have been able to come up with better performing shaft designs in the last 20 years - with the result that modern shaft-driven bikes do not exhibit these 'shaft-jacking' symptoms at any speeds in turns anymore..

 

[gleno]

This would point at the shaft drive as the main culprit. The OEM swingarm is most obviously not rigid enough, so bracing it or swapping it for an OTEC looks like it helps with chassis rigidity, but it now seems to me that the one piece of V-Max design that is firmly parked in the '80s (or even '70s) is the shaft drive.

We all know how BMW and Japanese manufacturers have been able to come up with better performing shaft designs in the last 20 years - with the result that modern shaft-driven bikes do not exhibit these 'shaft-jacking' symptoms at any speeds in turns anymore..

Absolutely correct.

I was very surprised to see a lack of innovation in this regard on the '09 V-max?????

 

[naughtyG]

I was very surprised to see a lack of innovation in this regard on the '09 V-max?????

Really? Don't you think they're using 'noughties' technology on the '09's shaft?

I would have expected them to have addressed this issue with a high priority, as they MUST be aware of the 1st gen Max handling woes and their cause...

:confused2::confused2::ummm::confused2::confused2: