Puzzled.

[Fire-medic]

David Edwards, editor of Cycle World for decades, had a Velocette that he struggled with for years, his repeated columns about trying to get the bike to operate reliably are a study in patience, depth of your personal finances, and the lore passed-down from one generation to the next, about the fine operation it would provide, 'once-sorted.' I'm just glad it wasn't my bike, because though I have patience and friends who are skilled mechanics and machinists, if what happened to him, repeatedly, happened to me, that ^%##! bike would have gone to another garage long-ago. Yours appears clean, would you be willing to post about it?

LJK Setright, a fine journalist whom I believe is from the U.K. also was a Velocette fan/owner. He wrote for Car and Driver and his may have been a Dresda frame version. Dresda, like Rickman, Hagon and Seeley, was a frame specialist in the U.K.

 

[Limeyrider]

Many, and deep are the complaints about Velocette machines, they are somewhat unique in that the factory hand built the engines, and, parts were " made " to fit by skilled fitters. I got my bike in parts, carefully rebuilt the engine, the bottom end ( flywheels ) and crank are built to within .002" TIR runout. The project bike came with an electronic package ... the magneto was long gone. My bike starts easily (now ! ). The starting procedure is outlined in the Velocette manual ... deviation from the procedure will result in a sore leg, and thin patience.
Dresda Tritons were a popular " cafe racer " when I was growing up in the UK ... early 1960's, Rickman frames were popular with the trials / scrambles riders.

 

[Fire-medic]

Rickman frames were popular with the trials / scrambles riders.

They also made these.


Mine is in-line awaiting its turn for refurbishment.

Here's a Dresda I saw in a show earlier this year.

 

[Limeyrider]

I had a 650cc Triumph Bonneville back in the mid / late '90's that I was considering converting to Dresda Triton spec., but good Norton frames were / are scarce.
Rickman Honda is sweet .... handles the way a cafe racer should !.

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey Fire-Medic.
I hope that you got through the hurricane safely and without property damage ... what a mess.
I just re read your posting ...., what would you want me to post about my Velocette ?

 

[Fire-medic]

Thank-you Limeyrider, for the concern about Hurricane Ian. The storm hit the west coast of Florida, the east coast wasn't affected by flooding or high-force winds like the area of Ft. Myers, Sanibel Island, Punta Gorda, Cape Coral (where our member Patmax lives), and other coastal communities. The concern is that areas in the middle of the state got lots of rain, and Arcadia, an inland community largely centered on citrus crops, had the Peace River overflow its banks. The river is normally 10 ft depth, and reached 24 ft before the flood waters from excess rain began to subside, it is still 20 ft depth. That is just one community, there are dozens more which have also been flooded, and which are dozens of miles from the Gulf of Mexico coast. Even Orlando was flooded in parts and that lies in the middle of the state, east-to-west.

Like Hurricane Katrina, which wrought devastation upon New Orleans, Louisiana, and Mississippi, Hurricane Ida was a large mass of a storm, and it was 'wet,' meaning it deposited an excess of rain during its passing. Te peninsula of FL is made mostly of limestone and sand, which allows good drainage, unlike the clay of Georgia in comparison. However, like a filled glass of water once the water fills the glass (or in the case of FL, the ground) any more water just spills over the rim of the glass, or overflows the banks of rivers, and encroaches from the Gulf of Mexico at the shoreline. Couple that with sustained winds of 125 mph and gusts to 150+ mph, and you see why stick-built houses and buildings and especially trailers are destroyed. The rising waters from the Gulf of Mexico floats vessels from their moorings/docks, and the wind pushes them inland, where they stack-up against whatever buildings are left standing. When you see a nice sunny day, and flood waters up to the roof eaves of the 1 story buildings and cars and trucks totally-submerged, with maybe their rooflines showing their locations, you understand the effect this storm has had on more-than 2-1/2 million people (the power utilities' number of people without power after the storm).

I suspect many people will take their insurance checks and relocate to another state. The renters, who probably don't have any insurance, will have to rely upon whatever federal aid is offered, and do the same. Their jobs are probably gone, and of course their homes and transportation are too.

I'd like to see salvage operations where the flood vehicles are seized and scrapped so they don't return to the used car market to plague unsuspecting buyers in another state when they are offered a 'low-miles Southern car.'

The Velocette, show us some pics, and regale us with stories of fixing her, places you've been, and whatever else would be of interest.

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey Fire - medic ... good to know that you are safe and well, hope that Patmax made it through ok.
I agree , flood vehicles should be immediately scrapped and Titles cancelled. We see too many salvaged vehicles being passed along as " low miles Southern car " ... I complain about stringent Title laws in North Carolina, but anyone trying to subvert the system WILL have hard time.

 

[Limeyrider]

An update on the jamming engine .... lifted the front cylinder head today and .... VOILA !!!... this little gem was resting on the piston top, there is JUST enough room between the piston crown and the combustion chamber top for the engine to turn over, but the screw had obviously shifted and was trapped twixt the piston and the gasket face...a small dimple is evident on the gasket face. No clue as to how the screw got there.. the plugs were left in the head except for turning the motor over.

 

[Fire-medic]

Looks like maybe something passed through the intake system. Maybe a screw for the airbox T or the lid?

I've seen where a way to remove the possible interlopers like that was to use a shop vac with a piece of screen over the inlet into the collection chamber, and using the spark plug hole as the place to vacuum. Use as large a hose as you can fit into the plug recess, and as short as possible.

Use of a fiber optic endoscope for your cellphone probably could have shown you that as well. In any event, you found the cause, or one of the causes, could there be more than one? I suspect not, as you pulled the cyl head for two cylinders.

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey Fire-medic,
I suspected that whatever was preventing the engine from full revolution was in the front cylinders. According to the Yamaha guru Sean Morley : There is only one screw on the entire bike that even is similar to that and it's usually black. It is holding on the vboost brain box to the plastic mounting plate under the LH scoop. Nothing else from Yamaha unless it came from another location that someone installed after it left the factory.
The previous owner had removed the plastic parts / airbox/ side scoops etc., the spark plugs were out of the head and connected to the ignition leads, I put the plugs back into the head for the trailer journey home. As an indication of careless owner ... the vertical cam chain guides were wrapped in rags and in a box of bits and pieces !.

 

[Fire-medic]

Without going through the search on the bike, I wasn't sure what would be the same as what you found. I just took a WAG about what it might be, and as the carburetors are downdraft, it made sense that a careless person could have dropped a screw while dismantling the airbox, and the errant screw was in one of the carburetor inlets. A few pumps of the throttle, and down it goes into the intake tract. I knew that the screws for the plastic pieces under the air scoops which hold the relays, and on the right, the screws for the plastic shields around the ignition switch & etc are I believe dark anodized, and not apearing to be cadmium plated, like what you discovered.

Sean is a pro, and between CaptainKyle and him, I figured that the location of that screw would be soon known. I'm glad that you decided to remove the cyl head and that the screw was the culprit. I suspect that a new head gasket and you should be good to go. I think that a consideration to make is there is no burr/edge on the piston crown or the combustion chamber roof, and that the loose screw didn't manage at some point to lodge under an open valve, which then closed on the seat and screw.

A burr/edge could become a hot-point and cause problems with pre-ignition. A deformed valve seat, or a damaged valve would cause poor compression, or weaken a valve enough to cause its failure subsequently. I'm positing this from the point of an amateur and not a pro mechanic.

Bottom-line, you found the cause, and it's up to you about how far you decide to go in investigating the problems that may or may-not be.

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey Fire-medic,
I smoothed and polished the two matching indentations, I have not removed the valves to inspect the seats, I am going to assume ... yes, I know ! .... that the screw was dropped down the plug hole at some point by the previous owner. The engine has not run under ignition for a good number of years, the plugs were out and the peripheral parts removed ... presumably to begin a restoration.... but the fellow changed his choice of machine and went the Kawasaki route, leaving the Yamaha neglected in a shed.

 

[02GF74]

Firstly congratulations on your diagnosis - 100% correct. (my approach would have been to use an endoscope and attempt to fish out the screw with a magnet, (there's no guarantee that looking for foreign objects or their subsequent extraction would have worked, whereas head off did) .

My hunch is that the screw, which I don't recognise as being part of a VMax, not from the airbox nor inlet rubber clamps, most likely entered the engine via the inlet, you had the engine turning over so it was probably in the inlet manifold and rattled it's way into the cylinder... ad opposed to being already in the cylinder.

Re. dressing the indents, I have in the past managed to smooth similar in aluminium by using a small diameter drift and hammer to avoid removing metal.

As you have the head off, it'll be madness not to check the valves - I've not had the head off but aren't the cams still on? Either remove the cams and valves else turn the cam over so the valves are open to check their sealing edge and seat.

Saves you going through this again should find the CR is low due to valve(s) not sealing.

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey 02GF74,
I did not mention in my last posting .... I did not remove the valves to inspect the seat ... but I did fill the combustion chamber with kerosene / paraffin and let stand overnight .... nothing leaking out of the cavity into either tract. The valves would need considerable lift to allow the screw to pass from inlet tract to the combustion chamber. I suspect that the screw was on the piston crown ... below the high curve of the combustion chamber ... and following an incident when the bike fell to the left side ... the screw was moved to the point where it was in a position to stop the piston ... that is my best guess.

 

[Fire-medic]

One of the first things I learned as a teenager watching/helping an older friend work on his car, was filling the intake tract, head-off, w/gasoline, and seeing if there was any leakage through to the combustion chamber.

Who knows where that screw came from? Maybe a squirrel dropped it into the inlet tract when the airbox was off, in the shed. Anyway, 'good on-ya' as you found it. As far as you've come, it sounds like at least removing the valves on that cyl to check them for being bent is a prudent piece of work, and it would allow a better view of the seats. Your kerosene test says the seats should be OK.

 

[Incider]

One of the first things I learned as a teenager watching/helping an older friend work on his car, was filling the intake tract, head-off, w/gasoline, and seeing if there was any leakage through to the combustion chamber.

Who knows where that screw came from? Maybe a squirrel dropped it into the inlet tract when the airbox was off, in the shed. Anyway, 'good on-ya' as you found it. As far as you've come, it sounds like at least removing the valves on that cyl to check them for being bent is a prudent piece of work, and it would allow a better view of the seats. Your kerosene test says the seats should be OK.

I bought a project years ago that wouldn't turn fully. Pulled the head and found a lump of welding snot about 4 or 5mm across. Just enough to stop the piston on that cylinder to clear tdc. Pretty sure it was deliberately put down the plug hole by former owner to be a prick.