Starting issue

[RempageR1]

Hi,

Since some time, my Vmax has trouble starting. Before anyone asks, it`s not the EFI part that doesn't work, it`s the ignition not firing as the RPM is too low for it to sync.

What I`ve done so far:
- Upgraded to a 4-brush starter motor.
- New Motobatt battery (as replacement for my Odyssey that died after 1 year)
- New starter solenoid
- Checked charging circuit, delivering 14 - 14.5V.
- Checked the starter clutch, which seems to be fine.
- There is a gasket on the alternator side casing and the gears do not seem to bind.

To test for any other issues, I removed the plugs so the engine would spin without the resistance of the compression. The video below shows me starting without the plugs. My main question is if the sound is normal for the newer type of starter motor, to me it doesn't sound too healthy. Thanks.

 

[Fire-medic]

Sounds OK to me.

Ground the plugs outside the spark plug holes. Use alligator clips & a jumper wire times four if you need to, so all the plugs are grounded. It helps to do this inside or at night, to see the sparks. You should have big fat sparks occurring regularly. Check the spark plug wires, their hard plastic spark plug caps, no green corrosion on the cap to wire connection (requires removing the cap to check the wire). Are the wires into the ignition coils also clean and tight? Are the wires fully inserted into the coil towers? Is there an 'olive' (a football-looking rubber gasket on the spark plug wire) on each wire, holding each high-tension spark plug wire into the coil tower, with the ribbed screw-on plastic nut?

Also, properly synched carburetors, and properly-operating fuel enrichment system components are essential to proper starting. Check and see that each carburetor has an engaging starter enrichment piston. On carbs someone screwed-up, I've had to disassemble the pistons from the carbs, and reinstall them, and then ensure that the forked fingers at the top of the enrichment piston are all synched to open all pistons an equal amount. That forked fingers rocker pair is supposed to be attached securely to the rod running through the two carb bodies. There are detents in the rod to ensure that the screw holding each forked fingers rocker is holding the rocker in-place for each carb. A bit of WD-40 helps the enrichment piston to move smoothly, as-well as no evidence of oxidation/corrosion in the piston bore.

One of my friends once did a carb soak/cleaning without removing the enrichment pistons. and he left the carbs outside overnight, but he didn't open/drain the enrichment piston bore. It was a couple days before he got back to it, and the pistons had corroded into their bores. It was a chore to remove them, and to clean things up. Live and learn.

 

[02GF74]

Not hearing anything abnormal other than running faster (due to missing plugs)

Some questions.
1. What is rpm of standard Vmax when cranking ?
2. What is cranking rpm of yours?
3. Is ignition not firing at all or firing at wrong time?
4. If you suspect slow cranking, can you attach booster battery? (jump leads to a car battery?)

Id have to go back through your EFI conversion thread, but I seem to recall you are using the original crank position sensor and wheel, how does your system differ from standard?

You know you can run a wire to the solenoid to sense the starter motor is operating so can do something special with the ignition when cranking?

 

[RempageR1]

Thanks both for checking the sound, then that also isn't it.

As part of the EFI project, I went from the 4-pickup setup to 1 pickup. I`m using the Ignitech unit for ignition, with the 4-pickup configuration it used to be able to start the engine with a half-dead battery and original starter motor. With 1-pickup it`s way more picky and if the crank speeds is not fast enough, it complains the polarity is wrong on the pick-up and will not fire.

When the engine cranks correctly, the sound is constant and it will fire. If not, you can hear the starter motor struggling against the compression of a cylinder which is likely why the signal isn't coming in clear enough for the Ignitech to work out. So I am looking for ways to make it crank faster.

I`ve read about adding a ground wire into the starter engine of the 2-brush starter motor, does the same benefit the 4-brush one?

Also, I`m running COPS so I just disconnected the COPS from the wiring harness to protect the Ignitech.

 

[RempageR1]

Yesterday, I installed a heavy duty starter clutch, see old and new below:



The old one was slipping under cylinder compression which seems to have caused the issue. With the new one on, it starts like a champ! Case closed

 

[one2dmax]

Beware the ebay starter clutches. You might could have ended up with this one

 

[Parminio]

I wouldn't buy canned air off of Ebay. That place is so full of scams and bogus parts now that unless you know the party you're buying from or a lot of people here vouch for them it just isn't worth the risk.

 

[RempageR1]

Beware the ebay starter clutches. You might could have ended up with this one

Yes I`ve seen that one come by, not great!

I wouldn't buy canned air off of Ebay. That place is so full of scams and bogus parts now that unless you know the party you're buying from or a lot of people here vouch for them it just isn't worth the risk.

This is the seller:
https://www.ebay.com/usr/lone-star-auto-part?_trksid=p2047675
With 98% positive feedback on 12K parts sold in 12 months I was willing to take the risk.


For reference, the first video below is how it used to start (old video when testing the speeduino):
https://youtube.com/shorts/8vsfJ4RROw0?feature=share
Compared to now. The Speeduino is not connected below so no fuel, it`s just to show the cranking speed difference.

View attachment IMG_6258.MOV





















So I`m happy for now . If it goes south, I`ll update this thread.

 

[Parminio]

With 98% positive feedback on 12K parts sold in 12 months I was willing to take the risk.

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_...=period:TWELVE_MONTHS,overall_rating:NEGATIVE
That's just the last month. A good majority of them complaining about cheap, knock-off parts.

 

[RempageR1]

I can do the same with the positive reviews:

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_...d=&campid=5338413729&toolid=10001&mpt=3908402
And as mentioned there are quite a bit more positive than negative reviews.



But let`s agree to disagree. I`m happy and will update if it ever goes south.

 

[RempageR1]

Well, one year later it`s the bouncing roller sound again. So it lasted one year. I did do a _lot_ of starts with the bike in the year due to the EFI conversion, but had hoped it would have lasted a bit longer. Probably will look for the original once again.

 

[Pighuntingpuppy]

Not to bash, but I run with the mentality of good parts arent cheap and cheap parts arent good.

Thanks for the update. Sure folks will find it useful.

 

[RempageR1]

Not to bash, but I run with the mentality of good parts arent cheap and cheap parts arent good.

Thanks for the update. Sure folks will find it useful.

No offense taken, I totally understand what you are saying. For almost everything on the bike I take the original parts or source then 2nd hand, there are a lot of maxes here in the Netherlands for spare parts. One thing that does make me doubt buying original is the ridiculous price a new starter clutch costs here. If I look at partzilla, in the US you pay $159 for a starter clutch:
https://www.partzilla.com/product/y...?ref=1dee77ccc12bf38a82e14065ed79aeb3c80da940
But if I want to buy the same part here, it costs me $381 including tax:
https://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-v-max1200-2002-5gkb-canada-1a5gk-300e1_model41233/partslist/0015.html
And a China version costs me $54:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/403229698729?hash=item5de25ceaa9:g:X5IAAOSwdAVfMQ4v
I could buy seven of those (and ship them all individually) for the same price as one original. Having gone through some original ones as well, I know they also don't last seven years, especially when I`m doing all the starting whilst testing. So the maths do steer me towards something not original, unless I can find an original supplier that doesn't want to rip me off...

 

[RempageR1]

I`ve taken the clutch apart and it has indeed cracked, like Sean and Parminio mentioned it might. So yes, you were right and I was wrong .



If anyone ever mentions this 'heavy duty' clutch here on the forum, please share that picture with them... I`ve got an original starter clutch coming in so that should get me back on the road.