TCI Theory of Operation?

[hexec]

Hello folks, I'm looking for a clear description of the TCI (Transistor Controlled Ignition) box. Here's what I know.

There are 2 inputs and 1 output.

input 1 = pressure sensor
input 2 = pickup coil (2 types, a 2 channel and 4 channel)
output = ignition coils

The TCI will spark each plug twice. Once for ignition and the second time during the exhaust cycle (not sure why).

The pressure sensor provides feedback to the TCI in order to determine the amount of ignition advance.

I'm looking for the logic used between the pickup coil and the ignition. I currently have a 1985 MAX so I believe I have only 2 pickup coils. However, I'm looking to create a Computer Controlled Ignition system that is selectable between 2 and 4 coils so I'll need both logic schemes. From there the project can expand to include a whole host of options. The ignition system is the starting point so I'm looking for a bit of help to get this project off the ground. The other option I have is to reverse engineer the TCI circuit (will need a spare TCI, don't have one so unlikely). Or, use a four channel oscilloscope and graph out the logic (giant pain the ***). If someone is aware of the logic I'm looking for then I can begin designed the circuit and writing the firmware.

 

[hexec]

Is this a true table of spark cylinder pairing?

pickup  combustion      Exhaust
coil    cylinder        cylinder
[COLOR=Red]1       1               4
2       2               3[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Orange]3       3               2
4       4               1[/COLOR]

 

[hexec]

Found the ignition advance behavior in the manual. Cool.

 

[satariel666]

Its firing beteween exhaust cycle couse its a WASTED SPARK ignition type.
TCI's are cheaper this way.

You will find all the info about v-max odd fireing sequence and other info.
Look at EFI related topics.

Also You may vist vmaxguru site. Also very useful info there.

Besides that You answered Your questions by yourself.


I've mentioned more then once here that could be done but I was thinking about PLC driver. A fast one.
With some inteligent stick coils. They run in TTL so it will be very easy.

I think It may be not a good idead to bulid a device from scratch.
Main question is why to get life so hard?

I was trying to create a JIG to test pre 90 v-mac TCI's.
I was not able to do this even with the 4 generators.
Only way Im seeing that could work will be stock pickups and flywhell
somhow roated to get proper signal.

Anyway.
Good luck.

 

[hexec]

Its firing beteween exhaust cycle couse its a WASTED SPARK ignition type.
TCI's are cheaper this way.

You will find all the info about v-max odd fireing sequence and other info.
Look at EFI related topics.

Also You may vist vmaxguru site. Also very useful info there.

Besides that You answered Your questions by yourself.

I'll see what I can learn over there. thanks.

I've mentioned more then once here that could be done but I was thinking about PLC driver. A fast one.
With some inteligent stick coils. They run in TTL so it will be very easy.

Hmmm, are you referring to COP sticks? I'm interested in what you mean by intelligent stick coils. Can you provide an example or link?

I think It may be not a good idead to bulid a device from scratch.
Main question is why to get life so hard?

Not so hard. The only real challenge will be to isolate all the high voltage noise from the micro-controller and I already have a solution for that.

I was trying to create a JIG to test pre 90 v-mac TCI's.
I was not able to do this even with the 4 generators.
Only way Im seeing that could work will be stock pickups and flywhell
somhow roated to get proper signal.

Anyway.
Good luck.

Setting up a test jig can be done but you can't do it with 4 separate generators that are not in sych with each other. You will need the duty cycle for each signal. You can also setup a flywheel with the pickups. There's many ways to skin a cat...

Anyway, if you can think of any information that might help me in anyway, please post it. If this project is successful, then many of us will benefit from having total control of the timing or a simple/better replacement option for the TCI and many other things to come.

 

[one2dmax]

I am not an electrician but would be more then willing to ship out whatever parts were needed to test with.

Sean

 

[hexec]

I am not an electrician but would be more then willing to ship out whatever parts were needed to test with.

Sean

Thanks Sean. As you know, I'm, not a mechanic so I'm learning this stuff as I go along. I'm pretty good at it and love getting my hands dirty. I do know electronics and can write software. I'm gathering as much information as I can on the TCI function before I begin designing the new circuit, firmware, and any external software to control it. An early TCI would be great if you have one. Dead or alive. It doesn't matter. Or even just the housing with connectors would be great. Anyway, lots of time before I start hunting these parts down. I probably will not start doing any real on-bike test and tuning until Mar 2011.

Question for the Dyna3000 users. What do you like and dislike about the unit? I know it has 8 curves. Do you have to program it each time you want to change a curve? Why is it only available for Vmax's from 1990+? Does it take input from the pressure sensor or just the pickup coils?

 

[one2dmax]

I think the dual pickup is what's the biggest hurdle for the older max's. The flywheel has 2 long trigger points where the later model one has a number of small ones and one longer one with a single pickup.

I know Tim (Nash) is planning on looking at this too and has one of my really junked early boxes right now. Perhaps you guys could work together. I know Tim is very good with electronics.

 

[modnrod]

I'm 1/2way thru converting 2 x Dyna2000's to suit my 1987, but it's a stopgap until a "proper" unit comes along or I try to build one. I have thought of converting the flywheel with an adapted tone-wheel to drive an off-the-shelf programmable ignition unit (like the Electronics Australia kits of a few years ago, and other magazine kits), but it's all time.
Since I'm also 1/2way thru my exhaust, and I need it to race in 3 weeks time, I'd be more than happy if something was available for nect year's season (start in October).
Good luck mate, not too hard, but fiddly. Have a good go.:eusa_dance:

 

[hexec]

Is a CDI = TCI or are they different? Circuit design is almost done....

 

[hubeerjw]

Here is a little info from Dyna - http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=10088&highlight=ignition

And as far as the timing goes, here is some good information from Tim (the VMax Guru):
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=6523&highlight=ignition

I'm VERY interested in knowing more about what you are working on. I've really been kicking around the idea of getting a Mega Squirt III this winter and playing with it.

Cheers,
Jeff

 

[hexec]

Excellent link. It's all starting to be much clearer to me now. I'll see if I can reach out to Tim as I progress.

hubeerjw, I'm designing a TCI replacement that is micro controlled vs the static transistor design of the original. I would like to have complete control of the timing and the advance behavior so users can create custom timing curves. From there, we can do all kinds of things once you tap into the timing signals. tach, speedo, display, shift light, rev limiter, virtual tank gauge, mpg calculator, etc.

Why am I doing this? No reason, just because I think it can be done and something to do over the winter. Just seems like a viable challenge. There might even be a market for such a device.

 

[hubeerjw]

Good for you!!!! Sounds like a pretty neat project. Have you looked at the MSIII before? http://www.ms3efi.com/

There are a couple of guys from Italy that got the fuel injection going on the Vmax with this setup... I believe they are forum members and they could also help out I'm sure.

 

[hexec]

To tell you the truth, I never looked at anything other than the dyna 3000 only because I read about it here. The MSIII looks cool. However, it's application seems to be far beyond a Vmax application. In fact, it looks like it was designed to installed in cars. Great link though as it does offer some inspiring information. Every little bit helps.

 

[one2dmax]

I've got a ton of fancy gizmo's that I picked up years ago that were designed for the vmax. Maybe jeff can talk Gary (Turbo Vmax) into sending the stuff out to you for testing. I think some of it would be beneficial. I think they were running a Dyna 200 (or 2000)?? on the early harnesses.

Sean

 

[hexec]

Can someone talk about the basic difference between early and later pickup coils? I have to start thinking about how to make this selectable from a hardware and software design perspective. Are the pickups bigger, smaller, more of, less of, positioned differently, etc.

 

[hexec]

I've got a ton of fancy gizmo's that I picked up years ago that were designed for the vmax. Maybe jeff can talk Gary (Turbo Vmax) into sending the stuff out to you for testing. I think some of it would be beneficial. I think they were running a Dyna 200 (or 2000)?? on the early harnesses.

Sean

Every little bit helps.

btw, is it save to say that the dyna3000 does not help with performance gains. I have not been able to find any dyno sheets that show a performance increase with this device. Could the stock TCI be extremely well tuned? Or, is it that the dyna3000 is missing the pressure input? I can't believe that a non digitally controlled system is stable enough to be that tuned. If it doesn't increase over-all performance then it must be helping to change the power curve. So more power/torque at mid range rpms.

 

[one2dmax]

The dyna does help in some cases as it plays with timing to get more advance (or less on the turbo curve).

The pickups are simple devices and the difference is one vs two. The stator cover is the same for all years but only uses one of the mounting locations for the later years. Pics can be seen roughly on the microfiche.

Sean

 

[hexec]

Thanks Sean, found them on the fiche.

Ok, So since the early models have 2 pickups, are they staggered or offset. In other words, are there 2 rings of magnets on the rotors? I'm trying to wrap my head around why there is 2 pickups. Got to do more reading as this is all critical to hardware design.

 

[satariel666]

I'll see what I can learn over there. thanks.


Hmmm, are you referring to COP sticks? I'm interested in what you mean by intelligent stick coils. Can you provide an example or link?

Not so hard. The only real challenge will be to isolate all the high voltage noise from the micro-controller and I already have a solution for that.

Setting up a test jig can be done but you can't do it with 4 separate generators that are not in sych with each other. You will need the duty cycle for each signal. You can also setup a flywheel with the pickups. There's many ways to skin a cat...

Anyway, if you can think of any information that might help me in anyway, please post it. If this project is successful, then many of us will benefit from having total control of the timing or a simple/better replacement option for the TCI and many other things to come.

That would be some Toyota intelligent cops for example

That will eleminate all the problems related to high voltaege etc couse they have bulit in drivers.

4 generators, 2 generators that make no diffrence.
The trick is that those picupks are exactly 4 pickups and each one is diffrent.
I dont have that advanced generators for simulating the 4 diffrent signals...

I will just use spare pre 90 flywheel I have and I will need to get some old type pickups.
That will do the trick for sure.

As others mentioned, Ya should stick with MS3 couse this device can do almost evrything.