Tires to old?

[Screwloose]

Again, that's not true. There's a LOT of misinformation and hype around Nitrogen in tires.

The size is so negligible that again unless you're dealing with EXACT, PRECISE measurements (which in street cars/bikes you are not) then it's useless. Think about it: Nitrogen freezes at -356 F and Oxygen freezes at -361 F. In the absolute most extreme case you can get there's only a 5 degree difference between the two.

In day to day driving, there is ZERO difference at all, even if you swing from 10 degrees below zero up to 100 in the same day.

The only time that actually makes any difference at all is in an extreme case like Formula 1.

In F1 when you have the finest craftsman on earth running the most exact, precise machinery on earth to machine an essentially perfect rim that has no need to be balanced and you're mounting a tire that is literally hand made to exacting specification that also requires no balancing, the mountings are as close to perfect as humanly possible, the clearances are absolutely perfect one end to the other, then yes. Nitrogen can help you.

You also have to take into account that the tires will be going from a room temperature when mounted to a warming blanket at around 175 degrees and can reach temperatures up to 300 degrees on the track.

Your car or bike will never, ever do that or even come close to it. They are also hell and gone from being made anywhere near as perfect, which is the ONLY advantage Nitrogen has.

The old wives tale is that since the molecule is bigger it will leak less.

In theory, yes. That is true. But when you're talking about a rim so out of round and true and a tire so lopsided in construction it takes you an entire ounce of weight to balance it out then you are living in some sort of fantasy world if you think having 1 one TRILLIONTH of a meter's difference in molecule size is actually helping you.

I think we may be off course a bit on what we are both thinking about.

The tyres on my car change up to 5 psi from cold to hot, I can see them going up as i’m driving, and it makes a difference on overall wear, these are Pirelli Zero’s so does not get any better. Ordinary air does hold well on these and its maybe once a month to top up. So for leakage thats why i’m saying a simulation would be good to view, but that would need allot of information such as permeation and compound for that exact tyre.

Looking at nitrogen as an option I see that it does not hold moisture anywhere near air, so again less corrosion.

I’m looking at the subject with a view to longevity of my tyres with possibly other advantages I can squeeze out of it on the way, such as more stabilised pressures that would help me as I like my adrenaline rushes by thrashing my vehicles now and then. Its very rare I do long runs so would be good for me to get good stability from my tyres asap.

 

[Parminio]

Our Volvo's measure tire pressure round the clock every day. I've never used anything other than regular old air. In the entire lifespan of my 2009 S60, I've added air three times. If you saw what my wife did to the rims when she drove it, you'd understand why. In the life of our 2013 S60, it's never.

On my Vmax, I've added air only twice since the day I bought it in July of 2007.

Nitrogen would have made absolutely ZERO difference in any of that.

 

[desert_max]

On my Vmax, I've added air only twice since the day I bought it in July of 2007.

Wow. You must be living right. That is pretty amazing. (The cars and the bike).

 

[Dorney]

Our Volvo's measure tire pressure round the clock every day. I've never used anything other than regular old air. In the entire lifespan of my 2009 S60, I've added air three times. If you saw what my wife did to the rims when she drove it, you'd understand why. In the life of our 2013 S60, it's never.

On my Vmax, I've added air only twice since the day I bought it in July of 2007.

Nitrogen would have made absolutely ZERO difference in any of that.

I'm not telling anybody to use it or not. But I got to as you this have you ever used it & monitored the results. If not I would not base anything on the points your bringing up. Just one more thing your telling us that you only put air in your tires twice in 14 yrs.

 

[02GF74]

Old wives tale.

The air in anybody's tire is already roughly 80% nitrogen. That's what the entire atmosphere is made up of.

Replacing the 20% of the content that is oxygen in the typical street tire makes absolutely zero difference at all.

From what I read, that isn't the full reason. Air also contains water vapour, which is the culprit ( messes up the pressure) but N2 from a tank won't have water vapour.

 

[Parminio]

Air also contains water vapour

Ummm...ahem:

Garages utilize these things called moisture traps. They have for decades. There's essentially no water vapor in any air put in your tires.

Unless, of course, you're using a ******* bicycle pump or some cheap ass gas station air hose you put .75 cents in.

 

[Parminio]

But I got to as you this have you ever used

WTF?!

 

[Parminio]

Wow. You must be living right. That is pretty amazing. (The cars and the bike).

Living in Georgia might help. We don't have very long winters at all and there are no corrosives (salt air, etc) that could aid in deterioration. The only time I've had to add any air is usually towards the end of the life of the tire, which is to be expected.

The Vmax is garage kept on the center stand always, so that probably goes a long way to helping that as well.

 

[Dorney]

WTF?!

You come back with all this stuff but you can 't even figured out I missed the K In ASK.

 

[Parminio]

You come back with all this stuff but you can 't even figured out I missed the K In ASK.

I was at a complete loss as to what that word salad you left behind meant. That's typically why I proofread my posts and correct them should I find an error.

The answer is: Yes and no. I took the Pepsi challenge with a mechanic friend of mine 5 or 6 years ago. He ran his new Ford F150 tires on Nitrogen and I ran my old, trusty Volvo on regular garage air. The premise was a simple "on your honor" how many times do you put air in the tires.

Turns out, it was the same, only he didn't have the damaged rims on his new F150 that I did on my old Volvo S60. At the time, we both had to add air once over a two year period.

It made zero difference at all other than he was charged 120 dollars service charge for the nitrogen.

 

[patate657]

I think we may be off course a bit on what we are both thinking about.

The tyres on my car change up to 5 psi from cold to hot, I can see them going up as i’m driving, and it makes a difference on overall wear, these are Pirelli Zero’s so does not get any better. Ordinary air does hold well on these and its maybe once a month to top up. So for leakage thats why i’m saying a simulation would be good to view, but that would need allot of information such as permeation and compound for that exact tyre.

Looking at nitrogen as an option I see that it does not hold moisture anywhere near air, so again less corrosion.

I’m looking at the subject with a view to longevity of my tyres with possibly other advantages I can squeeze out of it on the way, such as more stabilised pressures that would help me as I like my adrenaline rushes by thrashing my vehicles now and then. Its very rare I do long runs so would be good for me to get good stability from my tyres asap.

Same here in south Texas in the summer time.

 

[Screwloose]

There is always a certain amount of moisture in air; called humidity.

 

[Screwloose]

Same here in south Texas in the summer time.

I owned my own Ford Explorer in Sugarland way back 2006. Loved the vehicle, the climate, everything. I did notice there was little corrosion on the vehicles there so I assume less humidity than over here. Tried to get a green card so I could live near Padre Island , or Beach Bay in Louisiana to view more T&A.

 

[Dorney]

The harder you work a tire the more the benefit. Normal driving really not worth it

 

[Equanish]

The one big thing with nitrogen is that the pressure in the tire stays consistent. We used it in dirt track racing for the fact that the contact patch & stagger stayed consistent threw out the race.

I put the Nitrogen topic in my fathers ear a while back. Trained Chemist that he is immediately question that school of thought and concluded it was ********.
Then one day a friend who likes to talk about Satan, the Flat Earth, Telekinesis, and No Moon landing said he believes in Nitrogen for tires. You can drift into the left now.

 

[Screwloose]

I put the Nitrogen topic in my fathers ear a while back. Trained Chemist that he is immediately question that school of thought and concluded it was ********.
Then one day a friend who likes to talk about Satan, the Flat Earth, Telekinesis, and No Moon landing said he believes in Nitrogen for tires. You can drift into the left now.

Who is to say there are no scientists on this topic already! I see there are allot of intelligent people on this site mate, and assuming means one is postulating without documented (backed by released paper) fact.

Please publish the school of thought! I expect to see at the very least air and fluid corrosion factors on tyre rubber and associated inserts, including wheel material, backed by calculations. Then dynamic stress calculations over say 10 years on a tyre. Then a simulation of pressure, stress, permeation of air and fluid over time, all these results must be backed by finite element analysis calcs.

For someone to say i’m a scientist without having any fact to publish, means they are not a scientist as they would already know releasing one sentence without proper back up as above can destroy their own reputation in a couple of minutes.

Thats my speech for the day mate, but saying some other unnamed person sitting behind the scenes can take control of a discussion with a final result that is not up for further dialogue, frankly is not correct. If the person is a scientist then publish the facts mate.

 

[user 16790]

for those who are concerned with weight saving, perhaps helium would be better but if not at least you can get a squeaky voice

 

[MaxMidnight]

For someone to say I’m a scientist without having any fact to publish, means they are not a scientist as they would already know releasing one sentence without proper back up as above can destroy their own reputation in a couple of minutes.

It would also depend on what field of science they are in as to whether that have the knowledge to comment authoritatively on a subject. As Mr Screwloose points out, without quantifiable evidence someone holding an opinion doesn't make it true.

I suspect that for the majority of users Nitrogen would have little benefit.

• They will stay inflated longer as air will permeate the tyre some 1.6 times faster than air. Sounds good but with a tyre and wheel in good condition how much longer would it mean the tyre would maintain its pressure?
• Having the correctly inflated tyre will maximise fuel consumption and minimise wear but assuming the diligent owner does this with air what would the benefit be?
• Whist it will hold pressure longer at some time it will still need topping up. Maintaining the pressure would be a faff even if you have somewhere to get your Nitrogen. A foot pump or forecourt is far less hassle.
• More stable and consistent handling and tyre performance would be welcome but there will be very few of us that have the skill or inclination to push the tyres to the limit where it would become a significant factor,
• I don't know how much it costs for a Nitrogen fill but I'd like to know how many miles a tyre would have to do or how much less fuel you would use before it pays for itself.
• Whilst air contains water vapour how much makes it into the tyre is a moot point. This will depend on the humidity when inflated and how effective a compressors water trap is. All gasses expand but how much the extra expansion water vapour adds to tyre pressure isn't quantified.
• Air and water contain Oxygen will can cause corrosion. I don't profess to be an expert or even have any experience of problems caused by oxidisation within a wheel and tyre system but over my many years within the motor vehicle service industry, running the same vehicles over many years and sites such as this I've never picked up that it is a problem.
• To surmise IMO filling with Nitrogen is not worth it.

That's my twopenneth but it is an opinion and may have absolutely no basis in fact.

For me the bottom line is that if an owner is prepared to pay for a Nitrogen fill and is happy with the results then what others think is irrelevant.

 

[Screwloose]

All gasses expand but how much the extra expansion water vapour adds to tyre pressure isn't quantified.

For me the bottom line is that if an owner is prepared to pay for a Nitrogen fill and is happy with the results then what others think is irrelevant.

Nice read, enjoyed that.

To add a bit extra onto your sentence on expansion, I’m sure you know that it can be calculated, but it appears you mean you will not see it on a forecourt chart for many reasons of the amount of variables involved.

This is a topic that may not be closed for many years, but having the discussion has been very educating with many peoples views and experiences, and may swing me towards buying my own nitrogen tank and using this on all my vehicles. If not for this discussion I would not know about tyre manufacturers pushing various opinions across, and how the general public react to the subject where historical data is also worth it’s weight in gold.

 

[Woody]

I replace all the air in my tires every year. With warmer spring/summer air.
The shops and stations no longer carry premium air.
Although I think 1 forum member uses air from China. Because it's cheaper.