Time for some muscle

[tothemax93]

It's time for my muscle kit to go on. It's been said many times here before, " I'm going to take a perfectly good running Vmax and mess with it" There's a guy I race with that has about a tenth on me, and he's good on the light. I have nothing to be ashamed of. He's running a streched 600 with a pipe. Between the bike and rider he weighs in around 540 to my 840 lbs. I see some of the times produced with the muscle kit, and I have no problem believing I can gain a tenth. I'm going to strap the front and hopefully get the kit dialed in close enough to give him a wake up callunk:. Thanks to all the guys I pestered this spring, with all my muscle set up questions. I'm going to start with 152.5 mains, stage seven needles on 2.5 clip. Not sure yet but I think I'm going to use the factory springs to start. Opinions? I'm keeping the Vboost, And of coarse the air correctors and muscle air cleaner.. I also have all new rubbers for carbs and intakes, and need to reset the float levels on 2 of the carbs. All that should make a difference. I dig in tomorrow. wish me luck.

 

[cgswss]

Well you don't mention what is on your bike now. Do you have stock exhaust? are there any mods to the bike SO FAR?

IMHO messing with jets, slides, and needles is a total waste of time unless you have something wrong with the way the bike runs now. You can spend a lot of time and money for no real improvement.

The only true "bolt on" that is going to get you useable HP is the pipes. If I were in your place, I get ahold of Sean (Morley's muscle) and get his new hybrid Exhaust system and his Jet kit. I'm sure he has lots of Dyno runs with his exhaust/carb mods that he can give you the most improvement for the dollars spent .

If it were I, before I started making a lot of changes, I would take the bike in and have some dyno runs done that include the fuel/air cerve. This will tell you if you have any problems now. Every bike is different and we live in all different areas. to just say I'm going to do this setup because it worked for someone else may hurt you rather then help

 

[tugla]

+1. What's the pipe set up

 

[tothemax93]

I have marks 4-1. Did a lot of research on elevations, and what guys are using in the similar situations for racing applications. It's taken me 4 months of research to get to this point. I'm not just jumping in over my head. I love to race, and I would love to get to the low 7's 1/8 low 11's 1/4. More of a personal goal rather than just beating that guy. I'm just using him as an excuse to better my personal times. My best 1/8 was 7.28 and my best 1/4 was 11.28 with just marks pipe. I'm just going up to the next level.The muscle kit and pipe is as far as i'm interested in going for performance, unless I came into a lot of money.unk:. If I can't get it right, I can always go back.

 

[Fire-medic]

Read my story before you go to the dyno. I hope your results are different.
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=21873&highlight=dyno+dilemma

Bottom-line, it cost me $2K to recover from visiting the dyno, and I had absolutely no indication prior to rolling up into the sound-proofed room that my bike was going to lunch the engine. And, that was as-low as it was, because I had spare parts for some expensive pieces, like crank, cam, and ignition

I took the opportunity to do some other things to it, but essentially it's a stock engine, stock bore, w/intake, exhaust, clutch, ignition box, COP's, undercut transmission, and a significantly-leaner pocketbook.

Just so you don't get too-depressed after reading that thread, I included a pic from the weekend of June 21, all's-right, for now.

 

[tothemax93]

Read my story before you go to the dyno. I hope your results are different.
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=21873&highlight=dyno+dilemma

Bottom-line, it cost me $2K to recover from visiting the dyno, and I had absolutely no indication prior to rolling up into the sound-proofed room that my bike was going to lunch the engine. And, that was as-low as it was, because I had spare parts for some expensive pieces, like crank, cam, and ignition

I took the opportunity to do some other things to it, but essentially it's a stock engine, stock bore, w/intake, exhaust, clutch, ignition box, COP's, undercut transmission, and a significantly-leaner pocketbook.

Just so you don't get too-depressed after reading that thread, I included a pic from the weekend of June 21, all's-right, for now.

FM, did you regularly run it up to 9500 RPM previously, or was that unusual territory for your bike.

 

[Fire-medic]

FM, did you regularly run it up to 9500 RPM previously, or was that unusual territory for your bike.

The short story: I had returned the bike to use after an extended period of inactivity. I had stopped using it because it was running erratically. I let it sit not out in the open, in dry storage for years, and then decided to swap another engine into it instead of fixing the original engine that was in it when I purchased it from a Yamaha dealer a year-old w/1700 mi. on it. In six years I had put about 20K miles on it, not a lot, because I owned other bikes simultaneously. I did the swap because 2nd gear was bad, and it was cheaper to buy this engine and swap it in rather than tear-down the original.

I bought a used engine from a private owner off the internet. It was swapped-in by a friend who works at a local FL shop, in his spare-time. It got up & running without too-much difficulty. I ran it about 1500 mi. and had no issues w/it. I had been acquiring parts to swap-on, Stage 7 intake, full exhaust, ignition parts, suspension parts, etc. I went to the dyno to get a baseline so I would know how-much my efforts were going to do for me, prior to any modifications.

My riding habits were spirited, but not 'beat on it.' I didn't drag race it, I didn't do drag-race starts, I didn't speed-shift, but I did use VBoost pretty-much every time I had ridden it. I did keep an eye on the tach, such-as you could, w/its stupid location. Was I in the habit of running it 'tight' until the power fell-off, after 9500, and then shifting? No. Did I run it to 9000 rpm+ occasionally? Yes, with the original engine and with the replacement engine, but not until I had put a few heat/cool cycles into the swapped engine, checking for oil/coolant leaks, excessive oil consumption, overheating, etc. I found no problems, and was pleased w/my swap. That's when I went to the dyno. The shop who did the runs is a well-known local shop, w/a good reputation for its performance builds. They have been around awhile.

Three runs later, my bike was smoking a bit as the run concluded. It seemed to be possibly from the oil breather rather than from the exhaust. The bike came-off the dyno, I collected my pulls' paperwork, and I left the shop. In about a mile and a half, as I got onto the expressway, the bike began knocking. Loudly. At that point, I changed course, and returned home where I arrived in about <10 minutes. A subsequent tear-down showed #3 connecting rod big-end had about 2mm of up & down play, and it was blued from heat. The adjoining rod didn't have the play, but I assumed it was probably damaged too from the fragments. I rebuilt my original engine, (I had it done by a shop who has built many VMaxes in all forms, including nitrous, supercharged, and turbocharged) and that's what I am running now. The dyno shop and the shop which rebuilt the original engine are not the same.

 

[one2dmax]

The dyno won't be what killed it. We dyno bikes all the time and many of them are the same each year without failures. We've had a couple go bad either during or shortly after but the problem wasn't because of the dyno runs.

 

[Biker Dash]

Myself, before I start adding serious power, I think I would want to really beef up certain areas, just as added insurance. but once it is done, and done properly, I imagine there would be no issues.

 

[Fire-medic]

Sean, I kind of agree w/you. The engine had a problem not yet discovered, which was getting towards being an immediate problem. The dyno worked the engine to a point where the previously-existing condition came to a head. That's my take on it. The problem was there, it was going to fail at one point or another, it happened.

After-all when you're in Little League if you're the third-out of the ninth inning, you didn't "lose the game" for the team. That was the subject of a comic strip from "The Lighter Side of ____" by Dave Berg in Mad magazine about 50 years ago. Sometimes in the trials of getting my bike squared-away, I felt like one of those Cuban spies, one in white, one in black, also from Mad, entitled, "Spy vs. Spy," where each would come-up with devious ways to terminate the other. Just when I think, "that's it, I'm done!," then Whammo! I end-up with 'X's" where my eyes were.

 

[one2dmax]

I loved the old Spy vs Spy and know EXACTLY what you're saying!

 

[Fire-medic]

I am very glad we have a knowlegable expert on our bikes here like Sean who is very willing to share his hard-earned experiences. After-all, he can sell you the parts to fix it or arrange w/you to get it to him to fix. And no-matter our level of training sometimes you need an impartial opinion to trouble shoot something you just can't solve. He does a great long-distance diagnosis!

The forum is my friend.

 

[tothemax93]

So between me, my cousin/wrench and a little advice from Matt Donnelly We got all my carb parts installed. All new rubber boots, set all the float heights, new A/F screws. Installed the muscle kit. Got it all together, fired it up and Everything was good, so I took it for a few blasts up and down the road. Very noticable sound difference. It wound up much faster. Pulled noticeably harder. Seat of the pants dyno feels like I gained considerably. We'll see at the track. After I pulled back in the garage it hit me that we didn't sync the carbs. We synced them, but I had to call it a night, so I didn't run it after that. I have to get a few more miles on it, but the there were no noticable running issues. It felt good all the way through. The only thing that i'm wondering about is, when it was started cold today, it didn't need any choke to run ok. I'm under the impression that a little choke is necessary when cold, on a well tuned Vmax. I went with 152.5 mains, factory PAJ jets,stage seven needles at 2 1/2 clip setting, A/f at 2 3/4 turns out, morleys air box. I'll update when I get a better chance to run it and check the plugs, etc.

 

[tothemax93]

Muscle kit update. I thought I was set up pretty good. Went to the track and ran a best of 7.48. No better than before the kit. I was disappointed until I looked at the plugs. They were white as a ghost. I was starving the poor thing. I went back to square one with the float heights. They were off by a long ways, even though we set the dry heights according to the carb sticky. lesson: always check wet levels after installation. I reset the wet float heights to 17MM. After that I ran the bike at 8500 RPM for about a 1/2 mile and cut the engine. Looked at the plugs. they were about right color, and the bike ran strong so I left the 152.5 mains in. I went to the needles next. This is where the plug chart came in handy . http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=16981&page=2 post 12. The bike ran good and strong from 4000 RPM all the way up, but was weak and stumbly between 3 and 4 thousand. The ceramic on the plug was still showing lean. I trusted the chart that labeled it as a needle issue. I was at 2 1/2 clips from the blunt end. I went to the 3rd clip and it still ran poor. I went to 3 1/2 clips and it smoothed out perfectly. I'm still working out 2 to 4 thousand for power. It runs smooth up through there, but when I go WOT it not as crisp as I think it should be. At this point its probably an A/F adjustment issue. The next step is going back to the track and see how it goes. I'm going to go talk to the local dyno guy and see what he charges, for the ultimate peace of mind.

 

[sdt354]

It was interesting to observe all the Vmax's on the Dyno at Thunder this year, including my own. The bikes making the most power were running on the rich side. I'm glad Rick encouraged me to dyno, and see where I stand compared to other bikes with similar set ups. There is still power to be had on my bike with some subtle changes. These bikes can put some decent power to the pavement. The Days In parking lot will attest to that. They won't need to repave for a long time, with that nice coat of rubber on it now.
Steve-o

 

[Warp12]

It was interesting to observe all the Vmax's on the Dyno at Thunder this year, including my own. The bikes making the most power were running on the rich side.

How rich?

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

How rich?

Now that's the million dollar question! My A/F gauge said the bike was a tad rich, but the dyno guy at Thunder swore I was pig rich. I think his sniffer was cooked. I decided to try leaning the needle 1 clip, and the bike was lean and ran like crap, so I went back to where I was originally and it runs great. These bikes seem to have different needs when it comes to carb settings. I would say the tuning options are to do it by the seat of the pants, get an A/F gauge, or get to a good reputable dyno shop.

 

[Warp12]

Now that's the million dollar question! My A/F gauge said the bike was a tad rich, but the dyno guy at Thunder swore I was pig rich. I think his sniffer was cooked. I decided to try leaning the needle 1 clip, and the bike was lean and ran like crap, so I went back to where I was originally and it runs great. These bikes seem to have different needs when it comes to carb settings. I would say the tuning options are to do it by the seat of the pants, get an A/F gauge, or get to a good reputable dyno shop.

I mean, what were the afr #'s? For example, some call 13.2:1 "rich", while I would call it "lean" for max power under load, in most cases.

 

[Traumahawk]

I mean, what were the afr #'s? For example, some call 13.2:1 "rich", while I would call it "lean" for max power under load, in most cases.

Isnt max power 12.6 to 1...which is rich, but you make the most power there?

 

[Warp12]

Isnt max power 12.6 to 1...which is rich, but you make the most power there?

I usually run around 12.8-12.9 on my Kaws. It is dependent on the bike, and intended racing. For example, you might run it a little fatter for Land Speed Racing than you do at the dragstrip.

Then there is the matter of dyno's. A dyno will often read more hp with a leaner #, but the bike might mph better with a richer #.

Some bikes do like leaner #'s, though, and the true test is always at the track. You are not going to definitively feel 3 hp, "seat of the pants", but the timing traps don't lie.