Aftermarket levers making clutch slip

[Traumahawk]

This has been discussed a bit on other threads but like I'd said earlier, I would post details as to what I found when I got home and got everything fixed.

So, A bit of history

Several years ago, I bought these levers.....and didnt have any issue from them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/251006820844?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageNa me=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

So, I few months later, really liked them, and bought some more and put them on the shelf. (I later donated them to DMAN after his wreck) I dont know if he had any issues or not.

So, this summer, I'm in a hurry (trying to get tires and wheels on the bike before I leave for Eureka Springs the next day) and I'm having an issue with the kickstand falling down due to a stretched spring. I have the bike outside, and just have it put on the lift in a hurry. I walk into the garage, and I hear a crash. The bike fell off of the lift, crushed the left rear turn signal, and breaks about 2 inches off of the clutch lever. So, I steal the rear signals off of the 86, and bend the shift lever halfway back into shape, and I can still shift with 3 fingers, so I leave the clutch lever.

After I get home, I order some new levers (from the same vendor as before). Before I had to swap over the brass piece (the swivel piece) from the stock levers, but this time, it comes with that swivel installed. I install the lever, and away I go. A short time after that, the clutch starts slipping. It has been a couple of years, so I change it out. I mic the discs, and only one is out of spec (which is odd.....but hey). So change the clutch......and in the hot Oklahoma sun, after being on the bike about an hour....it would start slipping again. It would slip in the lower gears first.

So, I bleed....etc....and its better. While I'm at it.....I also change out the clutch MC as well. I do it strictly because it looks bad. So, I change the fluid, and fill it about halfway up.....and after multiple pumps.....it feels odd. So I count the number of pumps. After about a hundred.....I couldn't get the lever to touch the handle anymore. I physically couldn't squeeze the handle that far in.....anymore. So, I bled it again, and it feels better. I go out for a ride with a friend of mine, that weekend, and after about an hour....the clutch started to slip. Even after letting the bike cool, I almost couldnt make it home.

So....lol....even at dinner with Friends....I'm searching the forums looking for an answer. The only thing that I found halfway close was a post by Donnelly where he had swapped levers, and had to take them off, because they keeping the clutch pushrod pushed in on the MC. AHAAAAA!!!!! Thats it. I swapped back on a stock lever that I had sitting on the shelf, and it was amazing......full clutch response. I rode around town, making the bike get as warm as I could, to see if there was an issue. NOPE. So.....with the clutch MC I ordered, it came with a new brass swivel, and so I grabbed the calipers, and measured the hole in the stock lever, vs aftermarket. There was a couple of MM difference.

So, the next day I'm heading back to work, and I call Sean to see what would be the easiest way to drill the whole in the brass swivel deeper.....and Sean says "Wouldn't it be easier to just grind off some on the MC pushrod"? YEP....it would....and thats why Sean is Sean.....and I am just me.

So.....fast forward....(spending time in Lafayette LA, waiting to go out to work, a Paramedic refresher course, spending over 40 days in Columbia....and having 2 days off, plus another job for 14 days.) So I get home. The levers physically look the same, and even if you lay them on top of each other.....they still match up. I grabbed the calipers again....and measured from the lip of the lever to the inside of the whole. I documented everything in the pics below. I actually took about 3 mm off of the pushrod.

Now, with the lever on "4" (I have medium size hands) the clutch starts to engage about an inch from the lever. The highest temp that its gotten here is about 60 degrees. Ive taken the bike out twice and flogged it, and couldn't make the clutch slip....although its not uncommon for an OK summer to to 45 degrees hotter.

So, I will say that its fixed, but I wont say 100% until this summer. I will say this, I was surprised at the difference in the depth of the whole of the swivel between the stock swivel, and the aftermarket. I have also squeezed the lever 150 times in a row (I counted them....not fun with a DD mod), and still get full engagement of the lever, not like before.

Hope this helps.

Eric

 

[Fire-medic]

Usually when a clutch is prone to slip, it's first noticeable in the highest gear. That's due to the plates being worn, perhaps w/the 'too-long' push lever, it's always partially disengaged, and that's why you noticed it slipping starting out.

Now I am going by my anecdotal evidence. I am not a mechanic. When I have a clutch properly adjusted, I have a bit of free-play before any resistance is felt. And for the clutch, you should always be able to pull it fully back to the handlebar. Front brake, no (hopefully!), clutch, yes. I would expect that if the clutch was partially disengaged, due to the geometry of a too-long pushrod, there would be no sense of 'free-play.' You would encounter resistance immediately.

Anyway, glad you got it sorted.

 

[Traumahawk]

Well when I would get on it.....I would feel it slipping in 1st, and 2nd.....and then the hotter the clutch got, then it would slip more in the higher gears. As I was trying to get home, I was starting to slip in 5th....even at part throttle.

Even slipping the last time, I had put in brand new plates, and glass beaded plates from Sean.

Since having a "too long" of a push rod is one of those things that you dont really hear about, and it really will make you pull your hair out, until you get it fixed.

Thanks FM

 

[Fire-medic]

Good luck w/that paramedic refresher. This is the biannual year for all FL EMT's and paramedics to renew, we run these thru the college continuing medical education dept. Look at what is being done in Polk Co FL for stroke recognition by prehospital providers, they have been having amazing results for screening and then delivering the pt. to the correct facility, sometimes bypassing a community hospital to deliver the pt. to a comprehensive stroke treatment facility. Quick use of a clot-buster (of course, not able to be used w/a hemmorhagic stroke) once the neurological deficit is witnessed at onset, and with rapid transport to an appropriate facility, has allowed a huge increase in the number of patients whose stroke symptoms are minimized or eliminated due to the clot-buster administration. t-Pa and streptokinase are frequently used. Take a look here: http://www.goglobalpitch.com/strokebelt/index_htm_files/Dr. Sand and Dr. Banerjee - Field Triage.pdf

Now, back to clutch lever pushrods...

 

[Traumahawk]

Depending on what company is running the platform, t-Pa...streptokinase....etc, are available offshore. Unfortunately due to distance....or weather, we might be sitting on a patient for 2-3 hrs, to a day or two. Now....there are not MRI's, or CT's, so treatment of strokes is basically out, except for taking care of symptoms, but treatment for MI's is increasing. We can also run our own labs as well. Like I said, it depends on the company running the platform.....because of the cost.

Usually I take a Paramedic refresher every year. That way I use 1 for the refresher, and the other I use for CE's. I get the refresher free from the company, so all that it costs is my time.

Thanks for the info about CVA's. There has been so many changes over the last couple of years. The latest over the last couple of years has been the CPR-HD. With it (atleast for ground units) my companies resuscitation rates are over 22%, and thats even for rural.

 

[Dorney]

This has been discussed a bit on other threads but like I'd said earlier, I would post details as to what I found when I got home and got everything fixed.

So, A bit of history

Several years ago, I bought these levers.....and didnt have any issue from them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/251006820844?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

So, I few months later, really liked them, and bought some more and put them on the shelf. (I later donated them to DMAN after his wreck) I dont know if he had any issues or not.

So, this summer, I'm in a hurry (trying to get tires and wheels on the bike before I leave for Eureka Springs the next day) and I'm having an issue with the kickstand falling down due to a stretched spring. I have the bike outside, and just have it put on the lift in a hurry. I walk into the garage, and I hear a crash. The bike fell off of the lift, crushed the left rear turn signal, and breaks about 2 inches off of the clutch lever. So, I steal the rear signals off of the 86, and bend the shift lever halfway back into shape, and I can still shift with 3 fingers, so I leave the clutch lever.

After I get home, I order some new levers (from the same vendor as before). Before I had to swap over the brass piece (the swivel piece) from the stock levers, but this time, it comes with that swivel installed. I install the lever, and away I go. A short time after that, the clutch starts slipping. It has been a couple of years, so I change it out. I mic the discs, and only one is out of spec (which is odd.....but hey). So change the clutch......and in the hot Oklahoma sun, after being on the bike about an hour....it would start slipping again. It would slip in the lower gears first.

So, I bleed....etc....and its better. While I'm at it.....I also change out the clutch MC as well. I do it strictly because it looks bad. So, I change the fluid, and fill it about halfway up.....and after multiple pumps.....it feels odd. So I count the number of pumps. After about a hundred.....I couldn't get the lever to touch the handle anymore. I physically couldn't squeeze the handle that far in.....anymore. So, I bled it again, and it feels better. I go out for a ride with a friend of mine, that weekend, and after about an hour....the clutch started to slip. Even after letting the bike cool, I almost couldnt make it home.

So....lol....even at dinner with Friends....I'm searching the forums looking for an answer. The only thing that I found halfway close was a post by Donnelly where he had swapped levers, and had to take them off, because they keeping the clutch pushrod pushed in on the MC. AHAAAAA!!!!! Thats it. I swapped back on a stock lever that I had sitting on the shelf, and it was amazing......full clutch response. I rode around town, making the bike get as warm as I could, to see if there was an issue. NOPE. So.....with the clutch MC I ordered, it came with a new brass swivel, and so I grabbed the calipers, and measured the hole in the stock lever, vs aftermarket. There was a couple of MM difference.

So, the next day I'm heading back to work, and I call Sean to see what would be the easiest way to drill the whole in the brass swivel deeper.....and Sean says "Wouldn't it be easier to just grind off some on the MC pushrod"? YEP....it would....and thats why Sean is Sean.....and I am just me.

So.....fast forward....(spending time in Lafayette LA, waiting to go out to work, a Paramedic refresher course, spending over 40 days in Columbia....and having 2 days off, plus another job for 14 days.) So I get home. The levers physically look the same, and even if you lay them on top of each other.....they still match up. I grabbed the calipers again....and measured from the lip of the lever to the inside of the whole. I documented everything in the pics below. I actually took about 3 mm off of the pushrod.

Now, with the lever on "4" (I have medium size hands) the clutch starts to engage about an inch from the lever. The highest temp that its gotten here is about 60 degrees. Ive taken the bike out twice and flogged it, and couldn't make the clutch slip....although its not uncommon for an OK summer to to 45 degrees hotter.

So, I will say that its fixed, but I wont say 100% until this summer. I will say this, I was surprised at the difference in the depth of the whole of the swivel between the stock swivel, and the aftermarket. I have also squeezed the lever 150 times in a row (I counted them....not fun with a DD mod), and still get full engagement of the lever, not like before.

Hope this helps.

Eric

Hi Eric
No disrespect to Sean but I would of made the hole in the bushing deeper because now if you need to change the lever in a hurry like you did with your old one your not going to be able to with out a new push rod.

Just my 2 cents Dave

 

[Traumahawk]

Hi Eric
No disrespect to Sean but I would of made the hole in the bushing deeper because now if you need to change the lever in a hurry like you did with your old one your not going to be able to with out a new push rod.

Just my 2 cents Dave

Thats true, but everytime you buy a new MC, it comes with a new pushrod, and I saved the ones from the old MC as well. So, I had one to experiment with, and I also have a stock length one.....just in case.

In the case of the new lever, the swivel in it, does NOT come out, like it does in the stock lever, so your trying to drill into someone that will swivel at the same time. I guess that you could take it to a machine shop for them to do, but trying to do this at home......and probably latch onto this with a pair of vice grips.....and drill into it at the same time with a hand drill, just doesnt sound very safe to me.

 

[DMAN999]

I'm still running the set you gave me (set at 4) and I haven't experienced any slipping.
I'm assuming that they must be slightly different than the new set you used that did slip.

 

[Traumahawk]

I'm still running the set you gave me (set at 4) and I haven't experienced any slipping.
I'm assuming that they must be slightly different than the new set you used that did slip.

Glad to hear it. So yep, that confirms between the first set that I bought, and the set from this last summer, something changed. Right now the "new" set feels good (after the modification), and I would recommend them again....its just that people need to know what they are getting into.

I like the adjustable levers over all, like I said, I have "medium" size hands, and having everything set at "4" makes it so much more enjoyable.

 

[Dorney]

Thats true, but everytime you buy a new MC, it comes with a new pushrod, and I saved the ones from the old MC as well. So, I had one to experiment with, and I also have a stock length one.....just in case.

In the case of the new lever, the swivel in it, does NOT come out, like it does in the stock lever, so your trying to drill into someone that will swivel at the same time. I guess that you could take it to a machine shop for them to do, but trying to do this at home......and probably latch onto this with a pair of vice grips.....and drill into it at the same time with a hand drill, just doesnt sound very safe to me.

I see your point & it's good you have a stock push rod sounds like your all set.

 

[Vinmax]

I had this same issue during the summer after I got a set of aftermarket levers.

It drove me nuts during my ride, but I found out that the problem was the lever.
I brought the bike home and bled out some fluid when I felt how 'hard' the level was when just riding. This showed me that there was a lot of 'preload' on the lever from the swivel insert not being deep enough.

What I did, was to go dig up my old levers back out of the closet and just use my stock brass insert in the new set of levers. The old brass insert fit perfectly into my new levers and is drilled just a bit deeper to not have any preload on the lever when the clutch/fluid gets hot.

Back then, I was thinking about grinding down the pushrod on the MC, but didn't know if it came out easily without having to dump the fluid first.

*Yes, I know this thread, and my response is dated. But I don't get on here as much as I'd like.
I've spent sooooo much time on the 300ZXclub.com forum learning about my Twin Turbo Z. Now I have to start making ample time to get back into the Vmax again.

Vinnie

 

[Traumahawk]

Hey, thats ok, and thanks for responding. It lets others know that this can be an issue, and that there is a fix.

 

[eggohead]

Eric, I just notice my 95 clutch doing this with my adjustable levers.... lol.

 

[sdt354]

I just dealt with the after market lever B.S. on a bike I'm working on. If you fit the lever into the master cylinder and look down into the bolt hole you can see there isn't clearance and you're pushing on the actuating rod if you force the bolt in. There's got to be a little clearance there. I milled a little off the rod, on the flat end until I got the clearance. A test ride proved the clutch to be ok. Put the front tire up against my chimney and stalled the engine letting the clutch out, far above idle rpm. I couldn't get the clutch to slip now.

 

[Traumahawk]

Eric, I just notice my 95 clutch doing this with my adjustable levers.... lol.

Yep

I just dealt with the after market lever B.S. on a bike I'm working on. If you fit the lever into the master cylinder and look down into the bolt hole you can see there isn't clearance and you're pushing on the actuating rod if you force the bolt in. There's got to be a little clearance there. I milled a little off the rod, on the flat end until I got the clearance. A test ride proved the clutch to be ok. Put the front tire up against my chimney and stalled the engine letting the clutch out, far above idle rpm. I couldn't get the clutch to slip now.

My problem was that it wouldnt do it with the bike cold, it was after the temp came up, that the clutch would start slipping.

 

[sdt354]

Yep



My problem was that it wouldnt do it with the bike cold, it was after the temp came up, that the clutch would start slipping.

Thanks for the heads up Eric, I'll be taking an extended ride after I finish the exhaust and Morley kit and frame braces. I sense a happy Vmax owner in the next week.