Bike becomes offended when wet???

[johnblaid]

OK...again, I'm about to sell this *****.

I had the carbs rebuilt. When I picked the bike up, it died every chance it got until the battery died from excessive restarting about 1/4 mile from the shop and I had to push it back.

The mechanic put it up on the rack and started it up. It was running really rough.

I ran out the door when he removed one of the float bowl drain plugs and gas started shooting out onto the floor, screaming "Call me when it's fixed".

He later called and said it was running fine now and the only thing he could think of was that when the bike was moved from his very air conditioned workroom to the 100+ degree Texas heat outside...the alcohol in the ethanol separated out from the gasoline due to the drastic temp change. Alcohol will not burn in this type of engine (which is why the F*****G Federal Government makes us put it in there) (REALLY...That's the best theory he's got???)

He drained the carbs and the gas tank and refilled it and added some kind of gas additive and a bottle of 2 cycle engine oil and when I picked it up it did run just great. It ran even better when I installed a new air filter and started using Rotella T.

Yesterday, It rained during the day and the bike was out in the parking lot. I ride it back and forth to work daily (75 mile round trip). When I started the bike it was doing almost exactly the same thing. I figured the ignition must be a bit damp and it would smooth out when I got it on the freeway but it did not. I stopped in and put some seafoam in the tank and then filled it up with gas. It's still running like crap and will not idle.

Tried it this morning and it still wont stay running. I guess I'll have to get a hose and syphon all the gas out and dump it, then put some new gas in and run it till the carbs fill up with real gas....yea...right.

Are these bikes just this sensitive? I mean I might as well be flying a F*****G F-15 if it's going to be that finicky. I need a reliable ride.

Anybody have any advice other than get a Honda VTX 1300 or a Kow Vulcan V twin with ONE carb and just ride it?

Has this happened to you?

Thanks

 

[sdt354]

These bikes are fine, and used for reliable transportation all the time. There is an issue with YOUR bike though. How does the inside of that tank look? The gas shooting out of the carb bowls? Most likely, the tank is rusty/ nasty and needs attention, from the info provided. Has the filter been changed/old filter cut apart and inspected? Wet conditions usually are igniition related. Secondary ignition.
Steve

 

[tugla]

+1.....check filter and chg, I even add a second one to be safe

 

[jfeagins]

Other than what's already been said, or mentioned by yourself, I'd like to add that Gen II's are fuel injected and have fewer nagging carb related problems. However, I'd also like to point out that with nearly 200hp, they can get really spunky on those wet, rainslick surfaces if you are caught out in that rain again.

If rain affects the bike that much, and assuming your faux cover and side covers are all in place, the most likely area for water infiltration would be the handlebar switches, key switch, and/or spark plug boots. What kind of condition is your sparkplug boots in?

 

[johnblaid]

The gas shooting of the carbs was caused by the mechanic REMOVING A FLOAT BOWL DRAIN PLUG. they normally don't do that.

I just talked with my NEW mechanic and he suggests I look at the AIR FILTER ( I just replaced the old UNI with a standard paper Yamaha OEM filter.) He says that they get wet. I can see how that would play hell with engine performance.

He ordered something called a Hi Flow brand that supposedly has a metal shield around it.

if that does not work, I'll go back to a UNI. I'm at work right now but I'm headed home and will pull the air filter and check it.

My spark plug boots are fine.

This reminds me of an early test of a military helicopter. The thing did fine in the initial tests but when the military gave it a field test it crashed, killing everyone on board.

It was raining during the test and the engineers said..."Hey, you didn't specify it had to fly in rain." Probably not true but certainly applies in this situation.

 

[johnblaid]

oh yea, I'd like to add that if someone want's to buy me a Gen II, I'd love that.

No offense intended...but I'd really love that. And the gas to run it also.

Perhaps the UFO fuel injection kit will be available soon. I'd love one of those also.

 

[gamorg02]

define shoot out?

could your fuel pump be busted, gets funky and provides too much pressure, doesn't auto-shut off correctly?

altho i find that hard to believe too now that i think about it as you'd have gas pouring out of your vent hoses.

 

[MaxMidnight]

I just talked with my NEW mechanic and he suggests I look at the AIR FILTER ( I just replaced the old UNI with a standard paper Yamaha OEM filter.) He says that they get wet. I can see how that would play hell with engine performance.

He ordered something called a Hi Flow brand that supposedly has a metal shield around it.

if that does not work, I'll go back to a UNI. I'm at work right now but I'm headed home and will pull the air filter and check it.

If you were riding in a monsoon or down a river bed when it is full of water then that may be true otherwise I thing he is talking rowlocks.

Don't see what a meta shield will do other than restrict the airflow.

Run the bile in the dark and look for signs of tracking along the HT leads, plug caps and coil towers.
If this happened after it ha rained then also check that the rubber shield is in place above the front pair of cylinders and also that water hasn't got into the ignition unit multi-plugs

My spark plug boots are fine.

How have you checked this?

 

[johnpclynch]

Cracked coils run like crap in the wet

 

[naughtyG]

I also think your problem is most likely related to a combination of cracked coils / old HT leads / old or cracked spark plug caps.
As Steve said have a look at it running in the dark to see if you can see any sparks flying from the HT leads or spark plug caps.
Another very common one: the ends of the HT leads cores get corroded over time, especially is the screw caps on the coils and/or spark plug caps have become old and brittle. Usually cutting about 1/4" off the ends of the HT leads and refitting them will cure that.

The best cure for all of the above is to trash the old cracking coils, HT leads and spark plug caps, and go the way modern bikes are fitted by buying a COP (Coils Over Plugs) kit from Gannon here, one of the best investment for our Max.

Of course, for peace of mind I would still take a good look in your tank with a bright light - if you see any rust (which will be accelerated by E10/E15) then yes you have a problem that must be addressed. Tank will need treating/coating or replacing, and your fuel lines and carbs will need flushing and cleaning, as well as replacing the fuel filter.

 

[dtoebaert-5311]

You`re perfectly right, the bike hates to get wet. Exactly the same experience here.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=19255

 

[dtoebaert-5311]

Wrote this in the Vboost mag once.

Hi All fellow V-Maxxers,
My name is David Toebaert (never mind trying to pronounce that last name, David`ll do) and since 2009 I`ve been riding a 1990 VMax I call Llamrei after King Arthur`s famous horse (a mare by the way, in my view machines are female since they tend to behave unpredictable, sorry gals). When I bought it, I fell into the trap of buying a restricted power version L, but Cees Cornwall http://members.chello.nl/c.cornwall/Home.html
fixed it up quite soon after for a very reasonable price, and I drove back home from Holland to Belgium (Belgium? – what`s Belgium?, well, maybe our capital Brussels rings a bell) without even daring to use the VBoost…that has changed by now J. Anyway, Cees is a real nice guy who knows everything and then some about the Vmax, I think he`s something like the EU version of Sean Morley. Afterwards it turned out to be a benefit really, since it`s declared to the tax man as a 90hp bike, which makes a BIG difference over here JJJJJ - hush don`t tell anyone!
Anyway, the first two years or so I experienced all problems typical for the VMax: bad start, bad idle, sometimes the inverse as it would ride well the first few kilometers and then start to act up…you never knew what to expect when you turned that key…
So, I went through the complete I-just-bought-a-VMax aggravation, with lots of help both from the VMOA and the vmaxforum.net site, THANKS GUYS! Battery tender, different fuel suppliers, shift segment update, new battery,…you name it. And even when driving well, it could feel very unstable, so I also went through that (bearings, Furbur,…). Everything always helped a bit, but I never got this real “Ah, I found it!” feeling. It would run fine for some time and then (typically just when I needed it most) would fail me.
I have to admit, at some point in time I drove very little simply because I was afraid to get stuck down the road on a 250kg+ bike, or make myself hopelessly ridiculous by driving no more than 60km/h on such a bike because it felt strangely unstable when speeding.
So, I decided to share with you how the problem eventually got solved, so that now I can say I really feel comfortable on my bike, even a bit too comfortable now sometimes…
I know, it`s a bit hard to believe, but all my problems were solved after four things
- I only use Eurosuper 98, always from the same gas station
- I sealed the left scoop
- I park the bike over a grease pit (so, above air and not on a damp floor)
- I keep it on the battery tender “always”
I know, it sounds stupid, but I`m not experimenting any more to find out exactly which single one or which combination really made the difference, I`m too happy with how it rides now!
The fuel issue was heavily debated on the forum, and yes, there`s ethanol in all fuel in Europe so I can`t avoid it, and yes, it was designed for 95, etc. etc., I`m just saying what I experienced. Might just as well be a good gas station with new tanks so no moisture in the main tanks, I don`t know.
The big word has fallen: moisture. At one moment, my wife wanted to clean the garage so I parked the bike on the wooden beams covering the grease pit (it`s there but I never use it, the beams are quite thick and can easily support the bike) and forgot about it. It just kept standing there for some time and when I went for a ride, I was lightly surprised that it ran more or less normal. Out of habit I parked it back where I left off, so on the wooden beams above a pit of air, and gradually things improved. So it got me wondering what else I could do to reduce the effect of moisture. I looked around the bike and suddenly realized that when riding in rain, the electronics under the left scoop are pretty unprotected, but still in a more-or-less closed housing, so it would take ages for any rain that got blown inside due to the bike`s movement to dry out by itself. So I took some draught-stopping glue-on tape (no idea what it`s called, some thick mousse strip) and made the left scoop more-or-less water tight.
Ever since I`ve NEVER had a starting issue, it idles PERFECTLY and it runs LIKE HELL and STEADY AS A ROCK.
So, the “rocking” kind of instability that scared the you-know-what out of me before must also have been irregular cylinder firing I guess (the cornering ability by the way was greatly improved by putting on an AVON rear tire, round and no central groove, real good reassuring feeling in corners).
So, good fuel (that is, dry fuel), dry air around the motor, dry electronics under left scoop and fully charged battery and bingo, I finally feel like a have a bike instead of a pain in the lower regions!
Just thought I`d share, I was so happy. Before that, it was so frustrating to go out for a real good ride sometimes, feel happy, and then the next weekend go out again and feel like if I had never been on a bike before…
My feeling is it was the “sealing” of the left scoop that did the trick, but as I said, I`m not experimenting any more, and I`m a researcher by profession, so that gives you an idea of just how relieved I am…
Best wishes from Flanders
David
#5311

 

[dannymax]

johnblaid, are you by chance running a Dyna ignition box? If so those analog systems are known to absolutely HATE any kind of moisture. :bang head:

 

[johnblaid]

after getting home and looking at the air filter....it is perfectly dry. now the bike has been sitting for 24 hours with a half can of seafoam in it and also some HEET and a small bottle of 2 cycle engine oil. It runs perfectly.

I'm thinking that the COP mod is called for. I think he has one left that has all new parts. perhaps I can come up with the money.

 

[Traumahawk]

Mine would HATE the car wash....and I am assuming cracked coils...etc. After I changed to COPS...no issues what so ever, and rode back from Topeka KS 3 hrs in the rain...no issues.

 

[Redbone]

Did you ever figure out why the filter got wet? I've ridden for hours in the rain been through car washes and never had an issue with getting water in the air box.
The COPs are a great mod and my stock coils were in perfect shape, so much easier to deal with if you keep a couple inexpensive COP around for troubleshooting. I have been running mine for 5 seasons now and have not had one issue with them.
Where did you put the small bottle of 2 cycle oil into?

 

[[email protected]]

Did you ever figure out why the filter got wet? I've ridden for hours in the rain been through car washes and never had an issue with getting water in the air box.

Where did you put the small bottle of 2 cycle oil into?

+1 I've been caught in rainstorms and ridden for hrs with no issues. I typically wash the bike with a garden hose and dry it off iwth a quick ride down the road. Never had an issue.

Brian, I believe he is talking about dumping some 2stroke pre-mix in the gas tank of the vmax. For around the home use, I mix gas 40:1 with Maxima Super M and put it in everything. It goes in the CR500, the weedwacker, the lawn tractor, my sons KLX110, the leaf blower, the go kart.... The only reason why I do this is because I'm lazy. One can works for everything. No need for multiple cans of fuel for different engines, and wondering what is mixed, and what isn't. I've read some opinions of others saying that they believe certain types of pre-mix help to stabilize the gas while other types will separate from the gas if it sits too long (927/castor oil). I can't say if this is true one way or the other. The only thing I can say is that I don't drain the carbs, fuel tanks, or treat the fuel in the toys mentioned above and they sit all winter. Haven't had any issues with them firing right up in the spring. (knock on wood!) Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe an attached garage that is heated helps :confused2:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I've ridden in heavy downpours for hours and never had any problems.
With the Dyna and stock coil setup.

 

[Redbone]

+1 I've been caught in rainstorms and ridden for hrs with no issues. I typically wash the bike with a garden hose and dry it off iwth a quick ride down the road. Never had an issue.

Brian, I believe he is talking about dumping some 2stroke pre-mix in the gas tank of the vmax. For around the home use, I mix gas 40:1 with Maxima Super M and put it in everything. It goes in the CR500, the weedwacker, the lawn tractor, my sons KLX110, the leaf blower, the go kart.... The only reason why I do this is because I'm lazy. One can works for everything. No need for multiple cans of fuel for different engines, and wondering what is mixed, and what isn't. I've read some opinions of others saying that they believe certain types of pre-mix help to stabilize the gas while other types will separate from the gas if it sits too long (927/castor oil). I can't say if this is true one way or the other. The only thing I can say is that I don't drain the carbs, fuel tanks, or treat the fuel in the toys mentioned above and they sit all winter. Haven't had any issues with them firing right up in the spring. (knock on wood!) Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe an attached garage that is heated helps :confused2:

Thanks, Mike. I have not done this but in the big picture I guess it really shouldn't hurt anything, maybe cause a bit of oil smoke but probably not very noticeable. I guess I did dump a half a gallon or so into my truck (34 gal tank) last fall after I was done with the chainsaw and weed wacker and didn't have any issues. I guess I could have asked more directly but I was wondering if johnblaid was using the 2 stroke oil to help with his issues.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I think your mechanics alcohol and shop temp theory is full of hooey and he's trying to be too clever for his own good.

I've never had to take any special measure due to 10% alcohol gas in any of my toys or tools and we've had this stuff for years down here on the carcinogenic coast where it is over 90 degrees and 90 % humidity the majority of the time.

I haven't read this whole thread from start to finish so forgive me if I repeat what's been said already.

I agree COP is a good thing. But you've got a problem that should not exist in the first place.
Introducing a new mod in the middle of this is only going to complicate things and make it even harder to troubleshoot.
I would fix it first and then consider COP mod. I only say that because of the numerous threads I've seen on here regarding trying to "sort out" a newly installed COP mod.

Go with the simple stuff.

New plugs

Remove the solid core stock plug wires and resistor boots you have and replace then with any over the counter suppression wire from a parts house and use "normal" straight boots, getting rid of the resistor boots that are stock.

If you have ever disassembled the stock boots you'll see that they have multiple failure points. Failure doesn't have to be short to ground, ie visible spark, it can also be high resistance and failure to pass power at idle, the spark at idle really isnt that strong on these bikes.

You need RF suppression on the system, either via suppression wires or resistor boots. Its perfectly ok to lose the resistor boots as long as you replace the solid core wire with suppression wire.

Any 4 cylinder universal wire kit, or 8 cylinder too, like Acell etc. should have what you need. Buy a crimp tool while your in there.

Our wire is 6mm I think, you most likely will not find aftermarket wire in 6mm over the counter, use 7mm if you can find it, 8mm will work too but is going to require grease and persuasion to fit into the stock coils.

Go through your wiring harness paying particular attention to the;
Pickup connector
TCI connectors
Coil connectors
Vboost controller since it gets an rpm signal too.
Any aftermarket stuff that may be in the ignition circuit like shift lights, tach etc.

Look for loose, corroded, overheated etc connections. Grease it all up and put back together.

Cracked coils are a possibility too. Although cracked coils are pretty common and most bikes run fine with them that way, but if they are cracked I'd replace them. Mine were cracked causing me no issues, but they got replaced with Dyna coils anyway.
I think guys on here would be surprised how many if them have cracked coils with no symptoms; but then again it could be a symptom that IS water related and many may never get water on them.
If you do elect to replace them maybe then consider the COP mod...

Start from square one with troubleshooting the battery and charging system, starting with the stator and working your way out. Low voltage at idle could also cause erratic behavior with the TCI.

Finally,
If it is dying at idle from carb related issues. I think it would have to be either very poor synch, too much fuel or too little fuel.

Does adding a little choke help or hurt when its trying to die at idle?
If it helps then you've still got an idle circuit problem, likely plugged idle circuit passages or pilot jet.

I've also seen improperly seated jet block or bad jet block gasket that caused a super rich condition that screwed the idle up.

Another check is if you can get it to idle crappy long enough to do a temp check with an IR Temp Gun on the exhaust pipes to determine which cylinders may be misfiring. This is difficult to do accurately with the stock double wall exhaust system. You can try on the heads but that hunk of metal isn't as responsive to temp changes as a single wall exhaust pipe.
I get my reading about 3-4 inches away from the head. Usually around 280-340 F on a single wall aftermarket system at idle. About 150-200 when its not firing, and when it does start firing you can see the change real quick.

Once you've determined that a cylinder is not firing by temp method then you need to know if its due to fuel or spark.
I approach this one with an old school clamp on timing light, not trying to "time" anything, just seeing that the particular cylinder is receiving spark, if its getting spark but not firing then your looking at fuel or no air due to poor synch.
If its doing the above and you crack the throttle open gradually and it starts firing once its able to get fuel from somewhere besides the idle circuit then you just proved its an idle circuit or synch problem.
This could be a sync problem since an "overly" closed butterfly won't let that cylinder fire due to insufficient air or inability to pull fuel from the idle circuit holes. If that's the case then it should start firing when the throttle is just barely cracked open and it begins receiving air and pulling fuel from the tiny idle fuel holes that are right near the edge of the closed butterfly.
If it has to be opened a fair amount to start firing then its probably an idle circuit problem since its needing to be opened far enough to start getting fuel from somewhere besides the idle circuit.

Last time I had an unsolvable hot start problem I ended up replacing the TCI to fix it. No way I know of to trouble shoot a TCI other than eliminating everything else first.

If you've got a Dyna then just to be on the safe side I would smear some non hardening silicone like Dow 111 on the dip switches to keep water out, its like Vaseline but firmer and "stays where you put it", plus it doesn't wash away.
Hardware plumbing sections sell
other forms/brands of it to temporarily help toilet flapper seals and the like, and its also good for sealing connectors.