Birdoprey's COP (Coils Over Plugs) Mod

[Vinmax]

Hi Danny,
Definitely let me know if all is back to running great when you get the COP's back on. I got a set for myself from a 2007 R1. They look like they came straight from the factory. Plus they came with the wiring harness. I'm going to be putting them on soon. I don't currently have any running problems but I'm always looking for ways to keep the bike running at it's best. I won't be shocked if my stock coils are cracked also. Seems almost everyone runs into that issue eventually.

Vinnie

 

[dannymax]

COP's are back on, 5K miss is gone. running smooth as silk! :biglaugh:
That's it, COP's are there to stay. :thumbs up:

 

[naughtyG]

I put my COPs on today and documented as I went along, so look forward to the whole process in pictures soon :biglaugh:

 

[Noxx72]

Thanks for your detailed thread NG, I also did mine today, started to take pics as I went then got a case of the fuckits.

I had wanted to create a factory quality or better harness for my COPs, however it turns out that the connectors on the COP side are an Amphenol special, and while the crimps are only a couple of bucks each, the proper crimp tool is #300 via Newark. Yeah, screw that.

So I ended up cutting them in like everyone else. I used Perma-Seal type crimps which contain their own heat shrink and silicone sealant, followed by a few layers of electrical tape. Ghetto, yes, but everything works.

So, I've only put a couple of miles on the bike since I did it, I can't say that it runs any better or worse, I think claims of instant improvement may be due to either A) the emperors new coils, or B) people who had damaged coils and didn't know it.

I Also just left my coils in the damn bike, like you, I discovered they were NOT coming out without some assistance, and my brother in law has my rattle-gun, so they are just abandoned in there, oh well.

Even with no improvement I'd say it's a worthwhile mod, at least now if a coil takes a **** on me it's a 1 minute plug and play replacement

 

[hubeerjw]

If someone wants to determine the connector part numbers, wire length, wire size and a quick drawing/diagram, I have have them made up. Our company has all the equipment. Let me know.

Jeff

 

[RagingMain]

:hijacked:

Does the '09 use COPs?

:hijacked:

Yes they use COPS. I had the chance to inspect one on Friday. If you ever had to take one it is is going to be a huge chore. There is absolutely no room above them to yank them without some serious disassembly.
If you look at some of the pics on the starvmax website you will see what I am talking about.

 

[Noxx72]

If someone wants to determine the connector part numbers, wire length, wire size and a quick drawing/diagram, I have have them made up. Our company has all the equipment. Let me know.

Jeff

I was unable to source a part number, because they are almost, but not exactly like a publicly available crimp, I would assume they are made per MFR proprietary spec. We use several connectors at the park from Amp that are made just for us in the same fashion, and the part numbers always run DLR*****, DLR being Disneyland Resort.

I think the ideal process, when time is available to do it, is cut something like a Mini-Fit connector in between the two lines, providing a modular application without traditional splicing, which is a drag and prone to failure.

Shame it's so time consuming to make something look professional , just came back from a 25mi ride with my ghetto cut-in system however and everything performed fine.

I would guess if you REALLY wanted a clean look, you could use a standard 2mm spade female to conncet to the COP, then pot the protective recess with some 3M compound, leaving all the tail you want, and change out the factory Yamaha connector to a Mini-fit or other WP 2pole unit. You'd have to pot up some spares to have on hand as well however, and you'd lose the functionality of a quick connect right at the cop location, so there's that.

I dunno, whole thing is a pain in the ass. If one of my splices ever go bad I'm sure I'll figure something out.

 

[gleno]

Thanks for all the info on this mod.

I ride every day and I did the mods in late November. I also removed the old coils.

I've been running the R1 COPS on an '88 model V-max throughout summer (with 40C plus days).

This setup is SOOOOO much better than the stock coil and leads.

The bike starts easily, (never needs to use the choke) and runs without ever missing a beat.

The motor has a crisp exhaust note throughout the rpm range, is making excellent power and the fuel economy is marginally better on steady highway riding at any speed.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a 'must do' mod. h yeah:

 

[one2dmax]

Did we ever get a fix for the COP's and Dyna 3000 unit. I have an 85 I am going to be finishing up soon and need an idea what if any extra mods need done.

Sean

 

[gleno]

Did we ever get a fix for the COP's and Dyna 3000 unit. I have an 85 I am going to be finishing up soon and need an idea what if any extra mods need done.

Sean

From reading back over the threads it seems the dyna 3000 issue was left hanging. Someone quoted a European V-max source as saying the Dyna wouldn't handle the loads. This could not be verified.

However, Maleko (Mark) probably pointed out the answer in one of his posts when he asked the sparky at work if the COPS would overload the unit. His reply was; "What fuse does the ignition use?" 10 amp? IF that's the safe fusable load, and the Dyna uses the standard fuse then the Dyna 3000 must be able to tolerate a bit of extra or the fuse wouldn't save it.

It should be ok.

 

[RagingMain]

From reading back over the threads it seems the dyna 3000 issue was left hanging. Someone quoted a European V-max source as saying the Dyna wouldn't handle the loads. This could not be verified.

However, Maleko (Mark) probably pointed out the answer in one of his posts when he asked the sparky at work if the COPS would overload the unit. His reply was; "What fuse does the ignition use?" 10 amp? IF that's the safe fusable load, and the Dyna uses the standard fuse then the Dyna 3000 must be able to tolerate a bit of extra or the fuse wouldn't save it.

It should be ok.

Actually that was me that asked my sparky at work but no worries. I would have to say that a Dyna 3000 and the COPs do not mix. Too much steady state current. After doing some more research fuses are to protect from catastrophic failure, something going to ground, than a steady state condition. With the COPs primary resistance being half of the stock coils the amperage is twice the amount and the Dyna does NOT like that at all. Guess my electrician was wrong. I have gone through 2 of them since putting my COPs on. I actually have another one I need to turn in for warranty replacement.
I do like the advance that the Dyna gives, the low end grunt was awesome. What I did to make up for it with the stock ignition was to put a resistor inline with output of the vacuum sensor (the mod is somewhere on the forum) to the ignitor. Basically tricking the ignitor into thinking there is a high vacuum all the time and giving it max advance all the time. For someone not running COPs the Dyna is awesome. If you are running COPs then use the vacuum mod on your stock ignitor.
Sean give me a call if you got any questions about it.
My next step, after my trip to vegas and I get the Dyna replaced is to put some resistors inline with the COPs (already bought them) to raise the resistance and lower my amperage and try the Dyna again. This is only to see if this will work with the Dyna and COPs.
Cheers

 

[one2dmax]

Well crap, already have the dyna and cops. I was hoping someone had a good fix.

Sean

 

[m-cman]

Wouldn't lowering the amperage of the COP's reduce some of the benefit? Make it more in line with the stock coils?

 

[gleno]

Actually that was me that asked my sparky at work but no worries. I would have to say that a Dyna 3000 and the COPs do not mix. Too much steady state current. After doing some more research fuses are to protect from catastrophic failure, something going to ground, than a steady state condition. With the COPs primary resistance being half of the stock coils the amperage is twice the amount and the Dyna does NOT like that at all. Guess my electrician was wrong. I have gone through 2 of them since putting my COPs on. I actually have another one I need to turn in for warranty replacement.
I do like the advance that the Dyna gives, the low end grunt was awesome. What I did to make up for it with the stock ignition was to put a resistor inline with output of the vacuum sensor (the mod is somewhere on the forum) to the ignitor. Basically tricking the ignitor into thinking there is a high vacuum all the time and giving it max advance all the time. For someone not running COPs the Dyna is awesome. If you are running COPs then use the vacuum mod on your stock ignitor.
Sean give me a call if you got any questions about it.
My next step, after my trip to vegas and I get the Dyna replaced is to put some resistors inline with the COPs (already bought them) to raise the resistance and lower my amperage and try the Dyna again. This is only to see if this will work with the Dyna and COPs.
Cheers

Thanks for the update. It's hard to gather all the bits of information on this topic from the various threads dealing with it.

So I have a few questions.

1) Where is info on vacuum mod?
2) Someone mentioned they were going to switch to non-resistor plugs. From what you have said this would be a bad move?
3) Why would you want to run full advance all the time?

 

[MaxRyan]

I think it has been discussed that you can not add a resistor to the coil because the coil would then see half the voltage as the added resistor would drop the other half.

 

[bigdad1205]

so what if the resistor was put on the ground side of the cop as opposed to the power side

 

[Thevmaxrider]

It will still drop 50% of the voltage regardless of which side of the COP it is on. In a series circuit the sum of the voltage drop across all componets will be equal to the supply voltage.

 

[RagingMain]

It will still drop 50% of the voltage regardless of which side of the COP it is on. In a series circuit the sum of the voltage drop across all componets will be equal to the supply voltage.

This simply isnt true. I posted the math sometime back and I will go find and post soon. Time to get ready for work.

Although it doesnt matter which side it is one the voltage drop, not half, but the drop in voltage will occur on either side.

 

[RagingMain]

Thanks for the update. It's hard to gather all the bits of information on this topic from the various threads dealing with it.

So I have a few questions.

1) Where is info on vacuum mod?
http://vboost.users1.50megs.com/advance.htm
2) Someone mentioned they were going to switch to non-resistor plugs. From what you have said this would be a bad move?
3) Why would you want to run full advance all the time?

Here is the answers to your 1st and 3rd question

The amp draw is only going to be on the primary side of the coil. It is independant of the secondary side of the coil. The primary side amp draw is based on the input voltage, 12v, and the resistance of the primary coil; COP ~1.5, stock ~ 3. Since the coil is basically a transformer when the ignition interupts the voltage from the primary side it discharges through the secondary side greatly increasing the voltage. Depending on the coil windings this could be, and I am guessing, probably around 30,000-40,000 volts. By ohms law if the voltage goes up then the amperage must go down. So basically we are seeing very very small amperage on the secondary side. So to answer your question, finally, a NR plug will not cause the coil to draw more current. Basically all a resistor type plug does is help supress the Radio Interference from the high voltage discharge. Hope this answers your questions.
Electrical inganeers, please correct me if I am wrong.

Now on to your intermentint miss with the dyna. I had a Dyna until my R/R f*cked up and was putting out 19.5 volts and pretty much fried a lot of ****. Anyways I had a intermintent miss as well. When I went back to my stock ignition it went away. Well this is the only thing I could figure out and once again please correct me if my thinking isnt in the right direction. If you look at the curve for the Dyna
http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/downloads/instruct/D3K7-7.pdf
it has a dotted curve for partial throttle that is waaaay more advanced then the factory. For example at 4k rpm stock is 36 degrees. Dyna is 45 degrees. 5k stock is 37 dyna is 47. So basically it is 10 degrees more advanced at partial throttle. I would notice this when I got happy with the throtte. With the dyna the stutter would go away instantly and run like a raped ape. As compared to my stock ignition it runs smooth the whole time but doesnt have the kick to it when I get on it hard. Remember when you view the link above you have to add 10 degrees to their curves to compensate for our vacuum advancer. The way I know this is I called Dyna, they are here in So Cal and asked one of their engineers why their curves are less than our stocker curves. He said I was silly. I emailed him the link to the tech manual on vmaxoutlaw and told him the page number and to compare. He called me back the same day and told me I was the only one to notice that in all the years they had been selling them. He did some research and got back to me. He told me that the paper curves dont include the 10 degrees added by our vacuum advancers but the ignitor does take it into account. Maybe with the extreme advance we are getting some preignition and it might feel like a miss??????:ummm::confused2::ummm:
Cheers

 

[RagingMain]

It will still drop 50% of the voltage regardless of which side of the COP it is on. In a series circuit the sum of the voltage drop across all componets will be equal to the supply voltage.

Here is the math I posted awhile back using Ohms Law. I used the values from my bike. You can subsistute your own values.

If I may I would like to revist the possibility of using an inline resistor that feed the coil. Bear with me I will try to keep this as short as possible for those of you who have a short attention span (Mark, Bob :eusa_dance

We already know that using a resistor inline that feeds the coils will reduce the available voltage to the coils but with the COPs I dont see this as a problem. Here is the reason why.

I am will keep the math simple and use the values from my bike.

V=I*R
where on my bike
V is voltage 14.25 (2000 rpms)
I is current
R is resistance. 1.7 ohms primary winding on COP

so
I=V/R 14.25/1.7
so for my bike current would be 8.38 amps. This is dangerously close to popping my fuse. Havent yet, thank goodness. I did some readings two days in a row. My first readings were on the low range 5-6 amps. Last night I was seeing 9-11 amps and my fuse didnt blow. Caused me great concern.

Now if I add in a .5 ohm resistor that feeds the coils I raise the over all resistance to 2.2 ohms. So now I have dropped my current to 6.47 amps (14.25/2.2) almost a drop of 2 amps which would make the world of difference on the highway sometime.

But...now we have to see what the voltage to the coils would be. Back to the original equation

V=I*R for voltage drop across the first resistor.
V=6.47*.5 = 3.23 volt drop
subtract the voltage drop from the original 14.25 and you get
11 volts.

Here is why I dont think it would be a problem, it is based on an educated guess. I was able to find some data on some after market COPs made by Weapon X and MSD ignitions. Their output voltage is much higher than the stock coil voltage, and I am assuming the COPs we are using are in the same voltage range. From my research OEM coils put out 30k volts, aftermarkets is in the range of 45k volts. This is a pretty big difference and is calculated using a 12 volt input. Doing some more math to calculate the ratio of the primary to secondary windings

45000/12 = 3750. That is 3750 windings in the secondary for every one winding in the primary.

Now to calculate the voltage the secondary side will see if only supplied by 11 volts.
11*3750 = 41,292 volts. This is substanially over the 30k volts by OEM and lowers the over all current.

We would still get the benefits of easy start, crisper throtte response, better mileage and ease of replacement just with out popping our TCI.

Remember these are numbers from my bike. I have an excel spread sheet that does all these calculations. If you want it just PM your email address and I will send it out.

Of course this resistor will be put inline after the power the feeds the TCI and before it goes to all 4 coils so it will have an equal effect on all 4 coils.

I am going to try this out this weekend and let you all know the results.

Well I never got around to getting it done, just went back to my stock after frying my Dyna. There is no single place in the wiring harnes that will allow just one resistor to be used. I pulled mine completely apart to look for it. Just doesnt exist. I recommend you dont do this unless you like sticking yourself in the eye with a hot poker because that is how much fun it was.
Also here is the link to the thread I started on this
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=6296