My European 102hp has more torque than an American 145hp?

[Screwloose]

Look at the photo in the link on post #105.

I guess it was a stuck thermosts then yes otherwise I doubt it.

Thanks M_M, I tried to open that link yesterday and would not, I think you only posted it by a couple of seconds though. okay now!

Your comment in that link says the plastic valve in the photo is in the 'ON' position for draining, when it is reading left to right (at a squint). So can I assume the plastic valve should be reading upside down with the 'OFF' mark pointing to the small mark where 'ON' previously was (for normal running).

It would mean that if this is the drainage position as in your photo, then I've been running my bike in the wrong valve position at drainage 'ON' as in my photo above. It runs great though and I start it up every 2 weeks, let it get to operating temp, then fan comes on and it cools down to mid way on indicator/gauge.

Absolutely not saying you are incorrect as in your photo being in the 'ON' position (I can see the small arrow also on the valve), but where is the 'OFF' position. I'm trying to think back a couple of years to re-visit the decision I had then also, and I think I came to the conclusion of leaving all ports open to be on the safe side, that would mean the 'ON' position, then my photo ties in with what you are saying for 'ON' drainage.

Phew; tough work this cooling system game, I'm worn out.

 

[MaxMidnight]

The photo shows it in the open position, which is how you would set it to drain.
Turn it 180° to the closed position (approximately at 2 o'clock) once re-filled with coolant.
There is a detent ball and you should feel this locate as you turn the valve.

I have amended the link in #105 which I hope clarifies the situation

...and I start it up every 2 weeks, let it get to operating temp, then fan comes on and it cools down to mid way on indicator/gauge.

This is something I would advise against.
Whilst the indicator will indicate that the coolant has come up to temperature this may not be the case for the oil. This is important as during the warm up period condensation and other nasties will collect and will only start to evaporate once the engine is fully up to operating temperature. By this I mean coolant, oil and all of the metal. Normally I would expect that the bike would need to be ridden for ten miles or so to achieve that.

Whether this does significant damage is a moot point and in the short term probably not.
IMO an engine will sit quite happily without running for many months provided the coolant (antifreeze/ corrosion inhibitor) and oil is in good condition.

Re the 'extra torque' I found a note which stated '1991 - Euro models - Quieter exhaust; Power reduced to 95.2 BHP; Longer duration cams increase torque by 0.6 KgM; final drive ratio changed from 33/9 to 33/10.'

There wasn't any reference as to where this info came from and a search through the parts fisch's showed that the early French markets had 1NL prefix camshaft part numbers.
As far as I can establish it was only the French market that had these cams but in later years they changed to 1FK which is what all other Maxii have.

As far as I know (but stand to be corrected) it was only the French marked that had restricted machines throughout the bikes life. Whilst UK bikes were originally restricted the full power version were (officially) brought in.
Not sure if any of the above helps or hinders; answers to the usual address.

 

[Screwloose]

Turn it 180° to the closed position (approximately at 2 o'clock) once re-filled with coolant.
There is a detent baall and you should feel this locate as you turn the valve.

This is something I would advise against.
Whilst the indicator will indicate that the coolant has come up to temperature this may not be the case for the oil. This is important as during the warm up period condensation and other nasties will collect and will only start to evaporate once the engine is fully up to operating temperature. By this I mean coolant, oil and all of the metal. Normally I would expect that the bike would need to be ridden for ten miles or so to achieve that.

Whether this does significant damage is a moot point and in the short term probably not.
IMO an engine will sit quite happily without running for many months provided the coolant (antifreeze/ corrosion inhibitor) and oil is in good condition.

Okay I'm going to turn the valve 180 deg so the writing is upside down, allowing for normal running mode. Thanks, I could not figure out what the manual was saying.

I should have known better about the oil, absolutely condensation needs to be burnt off, and I do long running times with my cars as they stand still for months on end also. My thought process says because the bike is indoors it would not need so much running, but I'm incorrect in that thought when pondering about it more, it's a lump of metal that will have condensation inside. I found the weather so bad this year that I never even insured the bike, so cannot take it for a run. I run the bike engine primarily every two weeks because a couple of years ago when I removed the cam covers (it had been sitting for about 4 weeks maybe or more) I noticed the cams were very (and I mean very) slightly showing surface corrosion. I came off ok when running, but I got a fright that time and decided the oil needs to run round this bike engine every couple of weeks. Reading on oils a few years ago I remember that teflon sticks to the metalic parts and casings like glue, but the coating starts to diminish after a couple of weeks, eventually leaving I suppose metal to metal on start-up, but how long that ultimately takes I do not know, so every 2 weeks my vehicles get started up. I have 4 vehicles, and only done about 300 miles this year, so I'll need to spend a bit more time thinking about how to keep the running gear in good operation.

But thanks allot, the valve position mystery has been solved at last. It's upside down squint writing for running.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Did it!
You get your money back!
Radiator was clogged!

We took it to 2 radiator specialists but both of them didn't want to open it, just let acid flow and said it was fine

But we opened it and found what you see!

Thousands miles of distance and your feeling was right

Well we still must reassemble and check engine running though

One other thought...these things take a long time to filter through a Midnight's brain, would be to check the idle mixture screws aren't set too weak.
If the tamper proof plugs are out then someone has been playing so set them at 2 1/2 turns out as a starting point.
Too weak i.e. turned in too far could cause overheating issues particularly if the cooling system is compromised.

 

[AP76ita]

One other thought...these things take a long time to filter through a Midnight's brain, would be to check the idle mixture screws aren't set too weak.
If the tamper proof plugs are out then someone has been playing so set them at 2 1/2 turns out as a starting point.
Too weak i.e. turned in too far could cause overheating issues particularly if the cooling system is compromised.

To filter through a Midnight brain...

Max I'm interested in this last advice but as Denzel Washington said, pls explain me ad if I were a 2 years old
I didn't understand, have no clue what screws too weak; tamper proof plugs...
My bad...

 

[MaxMidnight]

Max I'm interested in this last advice but as Denzel Washington said, pls explain me ad if I were a 2 years old
I didn't understand, have no clue what screws too weak; tamper proof plugs...
My bad...

In the 'good ol'' days you could twiddle with your carbs to your hearts contents to the degree that the mixture was all over the place and emissions were adversely effected.
Noooooo said governments around the world that's naughty we must stop you.
As a result the idle mixture screws had to have a tamper proof plug inserted to stop the home mechanic getting out his screwdriver and having a good fiddle (no, you smutty sods, that isn't a euphemism!)

The picture below shows what you would see if the plugs have been removed (circled).



If these holes are plugged then you have virgin carbs.

Next some basic theory. The piston is forced down by igniting a mixture of air and fuel. In a petrol engine the ideal ratio is 14.7:1 (see here) that is 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel by weight.
Increase the amount of air and the mixture is considered weaker, reduce it and the mixture is richer.
A lean mixture burns slower than a normal or rich mixture and in doing so exposes the engine longer to actual combustion temperatures. It is this factor more than any other that causes an engine to run hotter on lean mixtures.

Got that?

At the bottom of the orifices you will find a slotted screw and turning this clockwise will make the idle mixture weaker and turning it anti clockwise richens it.

Going back to our basics a lean setting will cause the engine to run hotter than a rich one.
How much that is I have no idea. It should also be noted that whist the idle mixture is present its influence will decrease as other elements come into play.



To conclude, if the idle mixture is set too lean you may experience popping trough the exhaust and increased combustion temperature.
This may not be an issue when the cooing system is in good working order but when it is compromised, as with a blocked radiator core, it may be.

I hope that was 'simple' enough for a two year old?

No go and drink your milk and stop annoying your brother/ sister/ cat/ dog......*

* Delete as appropriate.

 

[AP76ita]

In the 'good ol'' days you could twiddle with your carbs to your hearts contents to the degree that the mixture was all over the place and emissions were adversely effected.
Noooooo said governments around the world that's naughty we must stop you.
As a result the idle mixture screws had to have a tamper proof plug inserted to stop the home mechanic getting out his screwdriver and having a good fiddle (no, you smutty sods, that isn't a euphemism!)

The picture below shows what you would see if the plugs have been removed (circled).

View attachment 80937

If these holes are plugged then you have virgin carbs.

Next some basic theory. The piston is forced down by igniting a mixture of air and fuel. In a petrol engine the ideal ratio is 14.7:1 (see here) that is 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel by weight.
Increase the amount of air and the mixture is considered weaker, reduce it and the mixture is richer.
A richer engine will run cooler than a rich one because a lean mixture burns slower than a normal or rich mixture and in doing so exposes the engine longer to actual combustion temperatures. It is this factor more than any other that causes an engine to run hotter on lean mixtures.

Got that?

At the bottom of the orifices you will find a slotted screw and turning this clockwise will make the idle mixture weaker and turning it anti clockwise richens it.

Going back to our basics a lean setting will cause the engine to run hotter than a rich one.
How much that is I have no idea. It should also be noted that whist the idle mixture is present its influence will decrease as other elements come into play.

View attachment 80940

To conclude, if the idle mixture is set too lean you may experience popping trough the exhaust and increased combustion temperature.
This may not be an issue when the cooing system is in good working order but when it is compromised, as with a blocked radiator core, it may be.

I hope that was 'simple' enough for a two year old?

No go and drink your milk and stop annoying your brother/ sister/ cat/ dog......*

* Delete as appropriate.

you always add something cool

Got everything thanks, yes I was aware of stechiometric ratio a/f
Had no clue at all about these tamper proof screws.

I smell mine a bit rich though, well care about all details once this is cleared

quite sure problem was the clogged radiator

My mechanic even had a loud argue with the radiator "specialist" who last month refused to open it stating he had checked water flow was good!
I mean, you are a radiator specialist, do what we asked and open that damm thing!

Anyway I started riding bike this morning, with temperature display fitted on handlebar, will drive like this a few days just to verity everything is fine

Mechanic found a lot of (kind of) debris/rust in water circuit
He also let the pump work with open circuit to try and clean it, but said there's still inside the circuit because it slowly is softened with engine running by hot water circulating, so I have to expect again a radiator clogging neatly.

Any idea on how to clean water circuit?
I remember you bike was not turned on for 10 years
Always used coolant though, maybe refilled with some distilled water sometimes

 

[Parminio]

In the 'good ol'' days you could twiddle with your carbs to your hearts contents to the degree that the mixture was all over the place and emissions were adversely effected.
Noooooo said governments around the world that's naughty we must stop you.
As a result the idle mixture screws had to have a tamper proof plug inserted to stop the home mechanic getting out his screwdriver and having a good fiddle (no, you smutty sods, that isn't a euphemism!)

The picture below shows what you would see if the plugs have been removed (circled).

View attachment 80937

If these holes are plugged then you have virgin carbs.

Next some basic theory. The piston is forced down by igniting a mixture of air and fuel. In a petrol engine the ideal ratio is 14.7:1 (see here) that is 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel by weight.
Increase the amount of air and the mixture is considered weaker, reduce it and the mixture is richer.
A richer engine will run cooler than a rich one because a lean mixture burns slower than a normal or rich mixture and in doing so exposes the engine longer to actual combustion temperatures. It is this factor more than any other that causes an engine to run hotter on lean mixtures.

Got that?

At the bottom of the orifices you will find a slotted screw and turning this clockwise will make the idle mixture weaker and turning it anti clockwise richens it.

Going back to our basics a lean setting will cause the engine to run hotter than a rich one.
How much that is I have no idea. It should also be noted that whist the idle mixture is present its influence will decrease as other elements come into play.

View attachment 80940

To conclude, if the idle mixture is set too lean you may experience popping trough the exhaust and increased combustion temperature.
This may not be an issue when the cooing system is in good working order but when it is compromised, as with a blocked radiator core, it may be.

I hope that was 'simple' enough for a two year old?

No go and drink your milk and stop annoying your brother/ sister/ cat/ dog......*

* Delete as appropriate.

Nominated for "Patience of Job" award.

 

[Screwloose]

A richer engine will run cooler than a rich one because a lean mixture burns slower than a normal or rich mixture and in doing so exposes the engine longer to actual combustion temperatures.

Just FYI, nothing more.

I got my two year old granddaughter to proof read your input. She said the line quote 'A richer engine will run cooler than a rich one' was slightly ambiguous. She said that when I told her the qoute 'than a rich one' could have been written 'than a leaner one' she got it immediately. And although the line was technically correct it was a bit too much for her.

She enjoyed the rest and said it was very educational!

 

[Screwloose]

Any idea on how to clean water circuit?
I remember you bike was not turned on for 10 years.

I could suggest accetone (out your nail varnish remover kit). Some people use this on radiator cleaning, but not sure if hoses or engine water jacket seals and pump could stand up to it. You would have to read up about it. It's only a suggestion to start you off on an investigation journey. To do it properly may take stripping the system to get to the varying materials.

 

[Screwloose]

Nominated for "Patience of Job" award.

Not half.

Life's too short, the seasons were changing.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Just FYI, nothing more.

I got my two year old granddaughter to proof read your input. She said the line quote 'A richer engine will run cooler than a rich one' was slightly ambiguous. She said that when I told her the qoute 'than a rich one' could have been written 'than a leaner one' she got it immediately. And although the line was technically correct it was a bit too much for her.

She enjoyed the rest and said it was very educational!

Ah, well done Mr S, I wondered who would be the first to spot my deliberate mistake...........

Text now amended.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Nominated for "Patience of Job" award.

Should that be Jobe?

 

[MaxMidnight]

you always add something cool

Any idea on how to clean water circuit?
Always used coolant though, maybe refilled with some distilled water sometimes

Once you have run it for a while I'd drain it again and if you can be bothered, remove the rad and reverse flush it.
Then its keep flushing.

Assuming the radiator core is now clear it may also be worthwhile running some rad. cleaner through as it will now be able to circulate.

Ice cubes.

 

[Parminio]

Should that be Jobe?

Technically, it's Job with the long dash over the O but I don't know how to do that.

 

[02GF74]

A leaner engine will run cooler than a rich one because a lean mixture burns slower than a normal or rich mixture and in doing so exposes the engine longer to actual combustion temperatures.

Going back to our basics a lean setting will cause the engine to run hotter than a rich one.

To conclude, if the idle mixture is set too lean you may experience popping trough the exhaust and increased combustion temperature.

Firstly you say a lean mixture runs cooler. Then you say the opposite.


From what I have garnered.... and matches well what is observed.

First, the fuel is an atomized liquid which has a cooling effect on the combustion chamber. So less fuel, less cooling effect.

Second, flames burn faster and hotter in the presence of more oxygen. More air relative to fuel than usual, means more oxygen than usual. So the flame burns hotter and faster than it should.

 

[AP76ita]

Once you have run it for a while I'd drain it again and if you can be bothered, remove the rad and reverse flush it.
Then its keep flushing.

Assuming the radiator core is now clear it may also be worthwhile running some rad. cleaner through as it will now be able to circulate.

Ice cubes.

Now rad perfectly cleaned and reinstalled
Mechanic is concerned about the debris which is still inside engine cooling circuit. I also think only way is to ride it and after a while flush it empty away again, and periodically repeat the operation until liquid comes out clean

 

[MaxMidnight]

Firstly you say a lean mixture runs cooler. Then you say the opposite.


From what I have garnered.... and matches well what is observed.

First, the fuel is an atomized liquid which has a cooling effect on the combustion chamber. So less fuel, less cooling effect.

Second, flames burn faster and hotter in the presence of more oxygen. More air relative to fuel than usual, means more oxygen than usual. So the flame burns hotter and faster than it should.

Oh bollocks, you have spotted my, ahem, second deliberate mistake which has now been edited......not to say there aren't others...

 

[Parminio]

Oh bollocks, you have spotted my, ahem, second deliberate mistake which has now been edited......not to say there aren't others...

A dear, late friend of mine from South Africa used to refer to my "machine gun approach to spelling". With you it's the same only with words. You probably type them so fast you spray them in the wrong place from time to time.

Technology and spell check came to my rescue. You're screwed though.

 

[MaxMidnight]

A dear, late friend of mine from South Africa used to refer to my "machine gun approach to spelling". With you it's the same only with words. You probably type them so fast you spray them in the wrong place from time to time.

Technology and spell check came to my rescue. You're screwed though.

That's the problem with late diagnosis Dyslexia.

I didn't realise I had a problem until I went to a Toga party as a goat.........