Non-bike Electrical Question

[gamorg02]

Hey guys, question that maybe someone has some ideas.

Some of you know i had some flooding issues with my house during the 12" of rain we got in a 3 day period this past spring. I installed french drains, exterior drainage and new sump pumps with battery backups.

Well we had such a drought this summer there wasn't much of a chance to check the system as a whole but finally we got some heavy rains a week ago.

So anyway I have 2x of the same battery backup pumps in two different sump pits so I have done comparisons n whatnot. During the heavy rains this past week i finally made sure backups would work properly if the power failed and found that they were triggering the battery sensor. These are deep cycle 12V marine batters with 125 amp hours. Expensive and big ole batteries.

I found BOTH system's batteries were at 12.2V-ish and there was only enough water in one pit to run one battery and as soon as it started picking up water the voltage would drop to right around 12.05-11.95 trigger the low voltage alarm.

My concern is the 'trickle charger' system on these batteries isn't working properly. They both had been plugged in for over 2 months so more than enough time even with the input source of 12V @ .2mA.

The plug in the wall goes right to a control panel. The plug 'says its 12V @ .2mA' but i read 15V coming off of it. I also put my ampmeter between the battery and the terminals off the 'control panel' and it cycles between .2/.1/.0 amps. My question is, how can I tell what the voltage is that the control panel is putting out to the battery?

I tried using an old vmax battery that had like 10V but it didn't register it as a working battery, so it didn't push any charge. I think it actually reads the resistance and will only start charging at that point.

I charged both batteries up fully using a car charger earlier this week and they both took 10amps for 8-10 hours to fully charge. They are both around 12.8V now, but I have no idea if the charging voltage is at like 12.2, or something lower than 12.8 but a decent voltage. The company (basement watchdog, i have the 'emergency model') offered to check/fix the control panels for free but it would take a couple weeks, and that kind of defeats the purpose of having battery backups, would much rather show them data I have of the charging voltage amperage and have them send me new panels and I send them the bad ones back.

Anyways, any ideas how to get that charging voltage #? Only thing i've heard so far would be to plug it into my truck and run all the elctrical to drain the battery then put it on the charger again and see what the new voltage is with the charging terminals attached.

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[satariel666]

Garret, its all depends on WHAT TYPE of chager this device runs.
If it is a static charger and only sets the "voltage" to "current which is set manualy" then its easy but, if it is a active chagrer then it may be dificult.

The most tru charging voltage in the second scenario would be something around "8-10V at the battery".
I mean the battery should be weak but not completly.
However it may be still a false mesurment.

In the other note, actual charging voltage with a "active chagrer" may dont exist.
I dont know if the ACTIVE is a good word to describe what i want to say?


Thats all I know.

 

[gamorg02]

by active do you mean 'smart' or 'intelligent' charger?

 

[COP RUNNER]

i . GARRETT , CAN YOU CALL THE BATTERY MANUFACTURER ? .. WHEN I FIRST PUT AN ODYSSEY BATTERY IN MY BIKE , I HAD CALLED THEM & TOLD THEM WHAT KIND OF CHARGER I HAD , ( I HAVE ONE OF THOSE GREEN ONES THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS ) I HAD IT IN MY HAND & TOLD THEM THE SPEC'S. AND THEY WERE HONEST WITH ME AND SAID THAT IT WASN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO CHARGE IT , BUT ITS GOOD ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN THE CHARGE FOR STORAGE , THEN I TOLD THEM THAT I ALSO HAVE A NAPA 10 AMP. AUTOMATIC CHARGER & THEY SAID THAT WAS PERFECT TO CHARGE IT IF IT WAS EVER TO GO DEAD & THEN USE MY GREEN CHARGER TO MAINTAIN IT , SO I DIDN'T NEED TO BUY ONE OF THEIR CHARGERS ! .. I SAID THANK YOU FOR BEING HONEST & NOT TRYING TO SELL ME SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY HAVE , WE LAUGHED & SAID GOODBYE ! .. SO I WOULD CALL THE BATTERY MANUFACTURER & SEE WHAT TYPE OF CHARGER THOSE BIG-ASS BATTERIES SHOULD BE CONNECTED TO !

 

[satariel666]

by active do you mean 'smart' or 'intelligent' charger?

LOL DUNNO!

I was refering the chager which autamaticly set the current be messuring capacity in the battery :ummm:
Also it will compensate the voltage - this is related with current changes.

Hope that make any sense :confused2:

 

[gamorg02]

i . GARRETT , CAN YOU CALL THE BATTERY MANUFACTURER ? .. WHEN I FIRST PUT AN ODYSSEY BATTERY IN MY BIKE , I HAD CALLED THEM & TOLD THEM WHAT KIND OF CHARGER I HAD , ( I HAVE ONE OF THOSE GREEN ONES THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS ) I HAD IT IN MY HAND & TOLD THEM THE SPEC'S. AND THEY WERE HONEST WITH ME AND SAID THAT IT WASN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO CHARGE IT , BUT ITS GOOD ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN THE CHARGE FOR STORAGE , THEN I TOLD THEM THAT I ALSO HAVE A NAPA 10 AMP. AUTOMATIC CHARGER & THEY SAID THAT WAS PERFECT TO CHARGE IT IF IT WAS EVER TO GO DEAD & THEN USE MY GREEN CHARGER TO MAINTAIN IT , SO I DIDN'T NEED TO BUY ONE OF THEIR CHARGERS ! .. I SAID THANK YOU FOR BEING HONEST & NOT TRYING TO SELL ME SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY HAVE , WE LAUGHED & SAID GOODBYE ! .. SO I WOULD CALL THE BATTERY MANUFACTURER & SEE WHAT TYPE OF CHARGER THOSE BIG-ASS BATTERIES SHOULD BE CONNECTED TO !

Timmy thats a great point. i NEVER charged the batteries up with a proper charger up and just plugged them into the 'trickle control panel charger' when installed and let them be. never got a voltage reading then either. this is EXACTLY what i was wondering if that type of situation is possible. Sounds like it is, esp since the vmax battery is a smaller, less powerful battery than what I have here. the thing weighs 40 lbs!

LOL DUNNO!

I was refering the chager which autamaticly set the current be messuring capacity in the battery :ummm:
Also it will compensate the voltage - this is related with current changes.

Hope that make any sense :confused2:

man przemek, i'm sorry i don't quite follow. i've also had a few beers, i'll re-read it in the am. my eletrical skills are limited at best so i don't fully understand it all..

thanks anyways man!

 

[satariel666]

man przemek, i'm sorry i don't quite follow. i've also had a few beers, i'll re-read it in the am. my eletrical skills are limited at best so i don't fully understand it all..

thanks anyways man!

Haha ok then finish your beeAr, take copsy's advice and call them tomorrow

 

[gamorg02]

yea these are everstart batteries (walmart brand) so i'm sure they are re-branded other batteries, maybe theres a phone # on them...

 

[RaWarrior]

Don't take this as gospel, but I'm fairly sure that wal-mart batteries are made by Delphi, which also sells them under AC Delco and a handful of other "store brands".


I'd pull the batteries and bring them to autozone or someplace similar and get them to load test them. Put them on a proper battery charger beforehand. By proper, I mean one with an amp meter on it. When it falls to zero, it's done. Easy.

Honestly, I hate computerized chargers. I have yet to find one that works well and does its job as described. I stick with a totally manual, el cheapo charger with an amp gauge and a 6a/2a switch as the only controls. An amp gauge tells you infinitely more than voltage. Rather than buy some goofy "smart" charger to plug my Vmax into all winter, I just put it on a 2a charge for one hour each month it sits. It's really not that much of a hassle. I used to have a "compu-smart" battery charger, it was the biggest piece of non-functioning garbage I ever used. Said every battery I tried was "defective", or would charge a huge dead deep cycle for 10 minutes and claim it was fully charged.

In your case, I would just go down in the basement once a month, and put each battery on a low amp charge for an hour or so rather than trust some cheezy box to do it for you. I'd rather know the batteries were charged for an emergency than have one happen and discover the "smart" box wasn't so smart after all, or had failed with no indication. That's just me though.

 

[richwrench]

This is not an electrical answer, but maybe a solution for your problem. My Mother's house in western New York was prone to mass flooding AND power outages at the same time. The local solution there is to install sump pumps that are operated by water pressure from the city. No electric, no problem - as long as there's water pressure, your sump pump will operate & pump your basement free of all water. The massive snow melts east of Buffalo caused many flooded basements when the power would go out - battery back ups just don't seem to be reliable for that application. If you're on well water, this wouldn't work, but if you're on city water, it may be worth looking into. I'm sure a well maintained battery system should be able to do it's job, but this method seems more fool proof to me.

 

[gamorg02]

Don't take this as gospel, but I'm fairly sure that wal-mart batteries are made by Delphi, which also sells them under AC Delco and a handful of other "store brands".


I'd pull the batteries and bring them to autozone or someplace similar and get them to load test them. Put them on a proper battery charger beforehand. By proper, I mean one with an amp meter on it. When it falls to zero, it's done. Easy.

Honestly, I hate computerized chargers. I have yet to find one that works well and does its job as described. I stick with a totally manual, el cheapo charger with an amp gauge and a 6a/2a switch as the only controls. An amp gauge tells you infinitely more than voltage. Rather than buy some goofy "smart" charger to plug my Vmax into all winter, I just put it on a 2a charge for one hour each month it sits. It's really not that much of a hassle. I used to have a "compu-smart" battery charger, it was the biggest piece of non-functioning garbage I ever used. Said every battery I tried was "defective", or would charge a huge dead deep cycle for 10 minutes and claim it was fully charged.

In your case, I would just go down in the basement once a month, and put each battery on a low amp charge for an hour or so rather than trust some cheezy box to do it for you. I'd rather know the batteries were charged for an emergency than have one happen and discover the "smart" box wasn't so smart after all, or had failed with no indication. That's just me though.

ryan you make some great points. I did charge the batteries up with a nice $60 husky charger which started @ 10a and slowly 'smartly' worked its way down to 0 amps. The voltage was then right under 13V and i could run the pumps dry or the one with water with NO problems. i doubt since both are exhibiting the same issues they have problems.

i wonder tho if cop runner is right, the 'trickle/sustaining' charger isn't enough to charge them up, just keep 'em where they are.

This is not an electrical answer, but maybe a solution for your problem. My Mother's house in western New York was prone to mass flooding AND power outages at the same time. The local solution there is to install sump pumps that are operated by water pressure from the city. No electric, no problem - as long as there's water pressure, your sump pump will operate & pump your basement free of all water. The massive snow melts east of Buffalo caused many flooded basements when the power would go out - battery back ups just don't seem to be reliable for that application. If you're on well water, this wouldn't work, but if you're on city water, it may be worth looking into. I'm sure a well maintained battery system should be able to do it's job, but this method seems more fool proof to me.

yea i looked at those but they had like 30% of the pumping power. my concern was if the power DID go out i'd probably need more power.

 

[COP RUNNER]

i .. " GARRETT " HOW DID YOU EVER MAKE OUT WITH YOUR SITUATION ? .. :confused2:

 

[gamorg02]

with the holidays i didn't get a chance to return the control panels or anything but i've been monitoring them with voltmeters and they've been slowly loosing voltage. down around 12.55v right now I think.

im going to HF today and im' gonna pick up a couple of the cheapo float chargers.

then charge both batteries back up and keep one battery on the 'float' charger and keep monitoring the voltage every few days.

i could use the chargers so its not a waste, but it will give me some ammo to call the company and have them send out a control panel. to see if its a fault in their stuff generally.

thanks for asking tim!

 

[COP RUNNER]

i .. KEEP US POSTED GARRETT , I LIKE LEARNING ABOUT OTHER **** TOO , IN CASE , I OR SOMEONE ELSE RUNS INTO A PROBLEM LIKE YOUR HAVING WITH " OTHER THEN MOTORCYCLE STUFF " , SO I OR WE CAN HELP THEM OUT TO ! .. unk:

 

[gamorg02]

will do man.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Didn't have time to read this whole thread but saw one point that may help.

Some "smart" chargers will not usually charge a battery that's really low, and it won't show any voltage on the out put until it has a battery hooked up to it that it thinks is on good enough shape to charge.

15 volts at the battery is going to be kinda high even for an AGM battery, mid to low 14 is mostly ok, but long term float voltage for a lead acid shouldn't exceed about 2.18- 2.23 volts per cell.

If your reading charger out put on a charger that WILL make voltage WITHOUT a battery hooked up, and it's not one of those "smart" chargers, then the out put voltage will be kinda high, but will go down when you put a load on it.

 

[gamorg02]

Didn't have time to read this whole thread but saw one point that may help.

Some "smart" chargers will not usually charge a battery that's really low, and it won't show any voltage on the out put until it has a battery hooked up to it that it thinks is on good enough shape to charge.

15 volts at the battery is going to be kinda high even for an AGM battery, mid to low 14 is mostly ok, but long term float voltage for a lead acid shouldn't exceed about 2.18- 2.23 volts per cell.

If your reading charger out put on a charger that WILL make voltage WITHOUT a battery hooked up, and it's not one of those "smart" chargers, then the out put voltage will be kinda high, but will go down when you put a load on it.

the 15V i read was where the plug that comes off the wall goes into the 'control' panel. the control panel then has hookups for the battery which does NOT read a voltage when nothing is hooked up.

 

[PATMAX]

Someone once told me how many amps a lead acid battery loses a month but it was more than I thought. Maybe it was a typo but I read early inthe post you were putting point two, .2 amps. Isn't that two tenths of an amp? Not near enough. Now they got a circuit board thing that sits right on the battery and connected to GFCI protected line ( house) power.

 

[gamorg02]

you don't think .2 amps is enough to float charge the battery?

 

[RaWarrior]

Most "trickle chargers" are 1 amp. The Battery tender Jr I got from santa says maximum output of .75amp (750mA) in "charge" mode, and into a much lower output mode in "float". I seem to remember hearing it was as little as like 2mA when in "float/maintain" mode. According to Deltran's website they adjust this rate based on temperature to compensate, supposedly so the input current matches the natural losses of the battery and it won't over or under charge.

Amp rate just refers to generally how fast the charge is. We have a 40amp charger at work that will bring a totally dead deep cycle to full power in about an hour. 6amp seems to take 5-6 hours. 2amp is overnight. It takes longer, but it's not any "less" charged from being at a lower rate. .2 amps would charge the battery but for a large capacity/deep cycle/storage battery it would probably take several days to fully recover it. .2 amps indefinitely would over-charge the battery for sure.

So far I'm happy with the Deltram jr, the bike had been on it for a couple weeks and it spun very strong and fired almost instantly in 30 degree weather.