Oil Consumption

[Parminio]

I think that would partly depend on whether the engine is rattling or not, as mineral oil with larger molecules do a good job of filling the tolerance gaps that have developed over time. But another consideration would be how you run the bike.

So does Yamalube 20 w 50.

But that's just me.

 

[desert_max]

Don’t ask me why, but the only Motorcycle I’ve ever had that I’ve run synthetic oil in is the Valkyrie. All others… and we’re talking literally several hundred thousand trouble free miles… have used mineral oil.

Clean oil, regardless of its molecular make up, is way more important than composition.

 

[MaxMidnight]

I think that would partly depend on whether the engine is rattling or not, as mineral oil with larger molecules do a good job of filling the tolerance gaps that have developed over time.

I'd be interested to know the difference in molecule size between conventional and synthetic oil....anyone?
Whilst I don't know the answer as it is going to be at the atomic level so that will be incredibly small.

Even if a mineral oil molecule is bigger compared to a synthetic blend it is unlikely to be a significant factor when compared to the clearances in an engine and IMO is not be a factor in reducing oil consumption e.g. - you would need 145454 carbon atoms to fill the mean main bearing oil clearance gap.
What will make a difference is the viscosity of the oil regardless if it is mineral or synthetic.

I also question why some dismiss mineral oils. Provided the motor is designed to run on it, it is changed when required and kept at the correct level and oil pressure is maintained then there is nothing wrong with using it. It will do the job for the vast majority of users.
Assuming these factors are adhered to how many of us have suffered lubrication failure due to the oil breaking down?

That's not to say that a semi synthetic oil doesn't have advantages over a mineral oil but is the additional cost is justified when used in a Max? I have used both types and didn't notice any difference.

However, when considering lubrication in modern engines then that is a whole different ball game.

 

[Parminio]

I also question why some dismiss mineral oils.

For me it's a two-fold reason:

1. The price difference to me is negligible. To change my Vmax' oil with mineral would costs me $25.00 on average whereas to change it with Mobil 1 Full Synthetic costs $39.00.
2. You need to change mineral oil every 2,000 to 3,000 miles whereas the Mobile 1 is good for over double that at 7,500 miles.

So not only is the full synthetic the better oil to run, it last literally twice as long while only costing 50% more. It's just the better deal all the way 'round.

 

[Screwloose]

I'd be interested to know the difference in molecule size between conventional and synthetic oil....anyone?
Whilst I don't know the answer as it is going to be at the atomic level so that will be incredibly small.

Even if a mineral oil molecule is bigger compared to a synthetic blend it is unlikely to be a significant factor when compared to the clearances in an engine and IMO is not be a factor in reducing oil consumption e.g. - you would need 145454 carbon atoms to fill the mean main bearing oil clearance gap.
What will make a difference is the viscosity of the oil regardless if it is mineral or synthetic.

I also question why some dismiss mineral oils. Provided the motor is designed to run on it, it is changed when required and kept at the correct level and oil pressure is maintained then there is nothing wrong with using it. It will do the job for the vast majority of users.
Assuming these factors are adhered to how many of us have suffered lubrication failure due to the oil breaking down?

That's not to say that a semi synthetic oil doesn't have advantages over a mineral oil but is the additional cost is justified when used in a Max? I have used both types and didn't notice any difference.

However, when considering lubrication in modern engines then that is a whole different ball game.

Don't know if you seen F_M's homework a few weeks ago, there was maybe something in there about petroleum molecules.

Synthetic molecules are more easily predictable and consistent in size as they are man made to certain tolerances that suits each manufacturer/user. Mineral oil is varied in it's molecules sizing as it come from the ground and goes through a distillation process to filter out roughly the molecule size (maybe 10^ -10, +- a certain amount of tolerance that is determined by the distillation process) for what is needed for a certain use, the more distillation the more costly. So mineral oil contains large and small molecules, and the larger ones do help to fill gaps in tolerances. Do not forget if a shaft is touching an inner roller bearing (metal to metal) then it is either an interference or transitional fit and hence too tight, so you need gaps with oil molecules to reduce friction and work inbetween the shaft and bearing. Synthetics like teflon stick to metals like glue and leaves a film even over a couple of weeks, where mineral oils tend to fall to the sump faster. So synthetics stay between your metal to metal parts for longer, where mineral oil is not so good for looking after your metal to metal parts over time, ultimately allowing more wear on start-up if you only start your bike every month or so.

Modern machining methods are superior for holding tolerances and producing finer predictable finishes that help with using oils of predictable molecule sizing, say synthetic with a certain viscosity, and the manufacturer of the vehicle knows that the engine is predictable in it's lifespan etc. So if you have an old rattling engine then have a go at raising the molecule size with predictable size and viscosity. You will get a bit more life out your old engine by looking into this, either that or some engines require mineral oil only, and it may well be because of different tolerances inside the engine that need some different sized molecules to seek out the gaps and try to fill them. I've never had lubrication breakdown as I'm carefull with oil, but I met a girl once who destroyed her engine by allowing the oil to break down and burn itself out. Oils can be tested by dialectric testing to see if their properties have broken down and lost the ability to lubricate as intended, also there is a temp limit on them that burns them out and temp spikes can do that. Racing engines have very quick and high temp spikes.

From what I gather on synthetic V's mineral oil, (my own words) mineral has varied molecules and handles sharp massive temp increases and is capillary, synthetic has predictable molecule sizing as it is man made, sticks to your engine parts like glue and likes to stay there as a film over longer periods of time. So a combination of both would mean to me the vehicle manufacturer is taking into account all of the above variables.

I've just realised as an addition; if you use Slick 50 it tells you not to take any oil out your vehicle, but include this half litre. If you have ever tried it, the oil level does not increase as the almost pure teflon sticks to every metal part it can find. I use it allot in my cars.

 

[02GF74]

Even if a mineral oil molecule is bigger compared to a synthetic blend it is unlikely to be a significant factor when compared to the clearances in an engine

Is what I was going to post.

View attachment 79074

Re this diagram. I would not be surprised if at the molecular level those lines aren't straight but resemble peaks and troughs so to get more oil molecules between the two surfaces, it may be beneficial to have them different sizes.... but as I quoted at the beginning, although I've not done the soums, I'd expect the interface between 2 ground engine surfaces to rough enough be
to hold many many oil molecules between them.

 

[desert_max]

Good stuff. Thanks all.

 

[02GF74]

There's way more going on with engine oils and lubrication than I know for sure.

But it makes you wonder how it all started.

Imagine you're sitting in your hut after having fitted a wooden wheel onto a bronze axle pondering why it is making so much noise and wears so quickly. So you think, I know. I'll just slaughter my pig, skin it to get at the fat in order to pack the space between the wheel and axle. It's not exactly an obvious thing to do, the knowledge may have come from time travellers from the future.

 

[user 16790]

Exactrep told me the 1200 vmax is better with mineral oil because they were designed with mineral oil technology, highly expensive synthetics don't stay in the correct places so well when needed

 

[Zenuwlijer]

Exactrep told me the 1200 vmax is better with mineral oil because they were designed with mineral oil technology, highly expensive synthetics don't stay in the correct places so well when needed

That's exactly what I heard elsewhere. Also to use the specified 20W40.

 

[Parminio]

Exactrep told me the 1200 vmax is better with mineral oil because they were designed with mineral oil technology, highly expensive synthetics don't stay in the correct places so well when needed

That's exactly what I heard elsewhere. Also to use the specified 20W40.

And I bet those same people told you that if you run a full synthetic you can't go back to regular oils.

Bunch of old wives tales.

 

[user 16790]

no they didn't say that, they said I was ok running my bike on Silkolene semi synthetic 10w40, their explanation was the roughness of the surfaces when viewed under a microscope suited the mineral oil molecules better, as the guy is a lifetime engineer and has specialised in vmax's for a long time I would think he knows what he is talking about as far as vmax's go,
this conversation with them came about after I had clutch slip from using an expensive semi synthetic oil (can't remember which brand),
maybe it's for a similar reason why some people prefer the diesel engine oil in their bikes,
ultimately though I'm sure it has as much effect on an engine in how hard it is worked and how the maintenance schedules are followed including warming it up properly before hard riding

 

[Parminio]

their explanation was the roughness of the surfaces when viewed under a microscope suited the mineral oil molecules better

Completely bogus argument.

 

[user 16790]

ok

 

[Parminio]

Think logically:

There is no difference between the way a camshaft in a Gen1 Vmax is ground from, say, the one in my wife's 2016 Volvo S60. You put a cam lobe of them both under a microscope and they're going to look exactly the same.

Where a thicker oil comes in to play is wear and tear on tolerances. The gap between the rod bearings and rod journals, the gap between the cam lobes and followers, those gaps.

The reason the Volvo runs on thinner synthetic oil is because it's built to much tighter tolerances and it has a turbo on it which synthetics hold up better to.

Running thicker oil in an engine makes the engine work harder. That is simple physics and there's no way around it. The old wife's tale about your cam having older, rougher cam lobes or your crankshaft having a more porous grind that bigger molecules fill up easier is, at best, ridiculous. They're no different than any other cam or crank. They're machined on essentially the same machines today that they were in the 50's.

But you put thicker oil in an older engine that's got some wear and tear on it and suddenly you don't hear the valves rattle quite as much, it doesn't seem to smoke as much either. That's because the thicker oil with the "taffy" effect helps fill up the tolerance gaps that have worn out to a larger size than they should be.

But if you take two brand new Gen 1 Vmax's off the showroom floor and you put 20 w 40 mineral oil in one and the 10 w 40 synthetic in the other, their really isn't going to be a great deal of difference. At max power you might get one or two more horsepower out of the 10 w 40 synthetic motor simple because the motor works a tad easier with it.

And, as I pointed out before, synthetics last at least twice as long (three times as long depending on the mineral oil) making them more economical in the long run.

But in the end, if you change it enough, you can run the cheapest oil you can find and it's not going to make any substantial difference. It's all just posturing and old wives tales that date back to the original STP oil treatment coming on the scene.

 

[Fire-medic]

Parminio wrote:
"But in the end, if you change it enough, you can run the cheapest oil you can find and it's not going to make any substantial difference. It's all just posturing and old wives tales that date back to the original STP oil treatment coming on the scene."

I'm no mettalurgist, not an engineer, not a professional mechanic. If I have questions on something, I'll research it further, and that does-not mean, "look it up on wickipedia." From my research several things already mentioned have been upheld, or refuted.

Engines are designed to use the technology of the times in-which they were designed. There's a trade-off in terms of maintenance intervals, the types of lubrication commonly-available, manufacturing tolerances, metallurgy, and the use to-which the machine is put.

I recall seeing the F1 engines in the mid-1960's coming into the pits during testing, and what was immediately-done, if the car wasn't going back-out? They would drain the Castrol racing castor from the crankcase or in a dry-sump engine, the reservoir. Why is that? At the time 'bean oil' was considered the best product for racing engines turning rpm's probably twice what an American V8 would in normal use. The 'bean oil' would thicken and become very-viscous as it cooled, and it could bake-onto hot engine parts, and if left in the engine, the engine would be hard to turn-over on a cold engine, and lubrication, so-important at start-up, would suffer, causing premature engine wear. As lubrication advances happened, 'bean oil' aroma wafting across the viewers along the track, became a fond memory of times past. For a kick, I've operated my ECHO weed whacker on 'bean oil' but I was soon to notice that the spark arrestor screen was soon gummed-up.

Oil, depending upon where it's taken from the ground, has a different chemical composition. I recall reading an oil comparison back in the 1960's where the PA crude, had a much-higher content of ash than oil from TX, OK or CA. That ash was interfering with the longevity of the oil's utility in-service. It prompted more-frequent oil changes, and back-then, a 3000 mile service interval wasn't uncommon. Now, with tighter tolerances for reciprocating engines, better metallurgy, and better oils, service intervals are extended. I use Motul synthetic in my VMax, in the factory-spec weight, and I change it about 5000 miles, or yearly.

Oil formulations have added compounds to enhance the service utility for the use to-which it's being put. John Force's oil is gonna be different from your VMax oil, based upon its use. Cheap oil has fewer additives, and less-expensive ones, so your engine is better protected by going to a premium motor oil and synthetic oil offers longer service intervals than mineral oil. One of the reasons for that is the way mineral oil acts in a unit-construction engine. The long-molecule mineral oils undergo deterioration quicker than the synthetic oils do, due-to the shearing which occurs from the gears, for one. Also, the oil temperatures of the synthetics are superior to heat degradation compared to mineral oils. We've seen all-sorts of commercials about what's 'the best,' categorically, synthetics are best. That doesn't mean mineral oils are inferior, it means, that using a proper viscosity oil and changing it according to use and service intervals, you should be able to use almost any type you can find, without sacrificing your engine's longevity, based upon your choice.

I recall something from my youth about STP. One of my dirt-bike riding buddies had an OSSA Pioneer and I had my Yamaha RT-2 360 Enduro, we rode trails and sandpits in SW MI. He told me about one of his 'creative' friends, who decided to use STP. The problem is that STP is not good for wet-clutches. The guy tried using it in his Honda CL350 Scrambler. With the thought 'a little is good, more is better!' he filled the crankcase with STP instead of mineral oil it called-for. He couldn't even kick it over! The STP viscosity prevented the engine from being able to work/start.

Choose an oil in the proper viscosity for the type of service that it's suited for, changing it according to factory service intervals, and don't sweat it.

 

[user 16790]

have engine materials not changed since there development then, I thought there would be new improved alloys etc. that might wear differently

 

[Parminio]

I recall seeing the F1 engines in the mid-1960's coming into the pits during testing, and what was immediately-done, if the car wasn't going back-out? They would drain the Castrol racing castor from the crankcase or in a dry-sump engine, the reservoir. Why is that? At the time 'bean oil' was considered the best product for racing engines turning rpm's probably twice what an American V8 would in normal use.

Fun fact: The most dominate engine in F1 in the '60's (through the late '70's and into the early '80's) was the Ford DFV Cosworth V8. It turned out close to 500 HP at 9,000 RPM.

It ran primarily on Castrol 20 weight.

Today, F1 uses primarily Mobile 1 synthetics and have since the mid '90's.

 

[Parminio]

have engine materials not changed since there development then, I thought there would be new improved alloys etc. that might wear differently

The materials, by and large, haven't changed with the exception of more use of aluminum and ceramics. Most cams, cranks, rods and tappets (lifters) are no different now than they were then.

What has happened is that far more turbos are used and the tolerances have been tightened up quite a bit to make the engines more efficient, hence the recommended use of synthetic oils.

 

[Coastal Grey]

I think that would partly depend on whether the engine is rattling or not, as mineral oil with larger molecules do a good job of filling the tolerance gaps that have developed over time. But another consideration would be how you run the bike.


It’s a vmax how do you think he will run it?