hubeerjw
Well-Known Member
That is kind of the route I was thinking, but I'll probably take the easiest route like I normally do, and just have one bung.
Thanks!
Jeff
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That is kind of the route I was thinking, but I'll probably take the easiest route like I normally do, and just have one bung.
Thanks!
Jeff
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
I just saw this post.
I'm running the Dynojet Wideband; it came off of my wifes formerly supercharged 350Z
It reads and displays on an analog guage wideband a/f ratio.
It wil also datalog
RPM
Throttle position (you need to rig this up, since there not a sensor on these carbs)
Boost or Vacuum
Also datalogs the A/F
You can play back a graph of all this stuff on a laptop, great tuning tool
The wideband also has a programmable lite on the guage that you can make light up under all sorts of conditions, most people running forced induction would have it lite up under excessively lean conditions when over a given throttle position and while under boost.
It also has another programmable output that you can do just about anything with relative to what it's sensing.
I'm currently just using mine to drive a shift lite, it could also be used to drive nitrous or whatever.
Plugging an empty Bung is no big deal, they sell plugs to fit them or even a broken off sparkplug will fit.
As for multiple bungs and sensors I don't think it's needed. Even guys running 30psi boost on some of these sport comapacts out there (big$$$$) usually only monitor one bank on a V motor.
You have to trust that the fact that whatever you did to one carb you did to ALL of them and then take it on faith.
When I originally installed it I still had the factory exhaust and I installed the sensor on the big collector box next to the driveshaft and by that spot where the centerstand used to rest. It's about the only flat spot on there.
On that application it was looking at all four cyliinders.
Now I have it on my UFO exhaust so it's only looking at 2 cylinders, the left front and the right rear.
These guages are VERY responsive except at idle where their accuracy is questionable due to the low volume of exhaust flow (at least I think so, at idle it reads ULTRA lean, when i know it's not), As soon as rpms come up over about 1250 or so it starts doing it's thing.
I've found it to be useless for trying to set the idle screws, for that I think you'd need to install it on the individual pipes, not worth the effort I think since these guages are really for making sure you're not in the detonation zone and also for getting the A/F right under hard throttle, and for maybe playing with your cruise A/F for best efficeincy (**** i can't spell:bang head
On the exhausts that have a rear crossover, like the Marks system, I would NOT install it in that crossover because I don't think it would be very responsive although I could be wrong.
As for rigging a throttle position sensor; the Dynojet wants a 5 volt signal for that and as far as I know all throttle sensors require a 5 volt source.
There IS a 5 volt source on the Vmax that I didn't find out about till recently, it's the hot wire feeding the manifold vaccum sensor already on the Vmax. That power source comes out of the TCI box.
I don't know how much sensor load the 5 volt source in the TCI box can handle but I don't think adding one to that source would overload it, there's not really any significant current happening here anyway, it'a all voltage signals. But once again it's not something I can attest to.
One more thing,
A narrow band guage is still a narrowband guage no matter how many pretty lites and leds the mfg. adds to it.
It's capable of doing ONLY two things and that is telling you if you are above 14.7:1 or below 14.7:1
There is a considerable price difference between a narrowband and a wideband set up.
I wideband setup will typically be extremely accurate from 10.0:1 to 19.0:1
A wideband sensor all by itself is usually on the range of $80-130 without the electronics to operate it.
Hope this helps,
If someone is serious about wanting more input on this feel free to call me at 713-542-6169
Just don't do it this week tho' cause I left my phone at my father in laws lake house and won't get it back till next weekend.
Later,
Rusty
I'm running the Dynojet Wideband; it came off of my wifes formerly supercharged 350Z
It reads and displays on an analog guage wideband a/f ratio.
It wil also datalog
RPM
Throttle position (you need to rig this up, since there not a sensor on these carbs)
Boost or Vacuum
Also datalogs the A/F
You can play back a graph of all this stuff on a laptop, great tuning tool
The wideband also has a programmable lite on the guage that you can make light up under all sorts of conditions, most people running forced induction would have it lite up under excessively lean conditions when over a given throttle position and while under boost.
It also has another programmable output that you can do just about anything with relative to what it's sensing.
I'm currently just using mine to drive a shift lite, it could also be used to drive nitrous or whatever.
Plugging an empty Bung is no big deal, they sell plugs to fit them or even a broken off sparkplug will fit.
As for multiple bungs and sensors I don't think it's needed. Even guys running 30psi boost on some of these sport comapacts out there (big$$$$) usually only monitor one bank on a V motor.
You have to trust that the fact that whatever you did to one carb you did to ALL of them and then take it on faith.
When I originally installed it I still had the factory exhaust and I installed the sensor on the big collector box next to the driveshaft and by that spot where the centerstand used to rest. It's about the only flat spot on there.
On that application it was looking at all four cyliinders.
Now I have it on my UFO exhaust so it's only looking at 2 cylinders, the left front and the right rear.
These guages are VERY responsive except at idle where their accuracy is questionable due to the low volume of exhaust flow (at least I think so, at idle it reads ULTRA lean, when i know it's not), As soon as rpms come up over about 1250 or so it starts doing it's thing.
I've found it to be useless for trying to set the idle screws, for that I think you'd need to install it on the individual pipes, not worth the effort I think since these guages are really for making sure you're not in the detonation zone and also for getting the A/F right under hard throttle, and for maybe playing with your cruise A/F for best efficeincy (**** i can't spell:bang head
On the exhausts that have a rear crossover, like the Marks system, I would NOT install it in that crossover because I don't think it would be very responsive although I could be wrong.
As for rigging a throttle position sensor; the Dynojet wants a 5 volt signal for that and as far as I know all throttle sensors require a 5 volt source.
There IS a 5 volt source on the Vmax that I didn't find out about till recently, it's the hot wire feeding the manifold vaccum sensor already on the Vmax. That power source comes out of the TCI box.
I don't know how much sensor load the 5 volt source in the TCI box can handle but I don't think adding one to that source would overload it, there's not really any significant current happening here anyway, it'a all voltage signals. But once again it's not something I can attest to.
One more thing,
A narrow band guage is still a narrowband guage no matter how many pretty lites and leds the mfg. adds to it.
It's capable of doing ONLY two things and that is telling you if you are above 14.7:1 or below 14.7:1
There is a considerable price difference between a narrowband and a wideband set up.
I wideband setup will typically be extremely accurate from 10.0:1 to 19.0:1
A wideband sensor all by itself is usually on the range of $80-130 without the electronics to operate it.
Hope this helps,
If someone is serious about wanting more input on this feel free to call me at 713-542-6169
Just don't do it this week tho' cause I left my phone at my father in laws lake house and won't get it back till next weekend.
Later,
Rusty
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
Hey Rusty? how did you mount this unit up? Do you have any pictures of it?
Sounds like it could be a more inexpensive version of a data logger.
Thanks in advance,
-KJ
Sounds like it could be a more inexpensive version of a data logger.
Thanks in advance,
-KJ
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
The guage is mounted in a guage cup on the handlebars.
The brain box is mounted where the tool kit used to be. Since I went to a sport tail it's just underneath the tail piece.
I'll see if i can find pictures but it could be a while.
The Dynojet essentially IS a datalogger with an A/F guage.
You gotta dig deep on their site to really see what all it will do, the best place to see it is by reading the pdf installation instructions. They tell you more about it than the sales info.
There are also some tutorials that show how the software works.
Rusty
We've used just about every type of mid-to-high quality wideband sensor brand known to man in my engine building business and I can honestly state that the Innovate brand of wideband sensor kits are the most DIY user friendly W/B kits on the market today for the price.
They use common Volkswagon $90 Bosch UEGO wideband sensors in case you ever need to replace it, (and you will) plus they are free-air calibratable, for which most of the cheap kits mentioned in this very thread are *not*.
That feature is *EXTREMELY* important to have, because it allows you to re-calibrate the sensor to free air each time you use it, so you have a true measure of 20.6 (typical clean, free-air o2 content) as the sensor degrades over time. Without that function, you have absolutely *NO WAY* to quantify sensor degradation over time as it wears and if you let it go long enough, your tuning accuracy will suffer as your equipment skews out of whack...
Been there...done *ALL* of that.......
We typically use a precision lab-grade wideband/Lambda sensor module called a "Horiba" on our chassis/engine dynos here for the ultimate in AFR data accuracy- but it's not very user cost friendly at $8400 each...
The Innovate system is approx. $400 with the trick options and it's entirely portable, upgradable, very robust and easy to get parts/product support for. We use these in the car while tuning and periodically test it's accuracy against our Horiba to make sure it's working right- especially if we've tuned an engine that used leaded fuel or alky. So far after a year, it's still dead-on.
I'm not affiliated with any of these sensor manufacturers in any way, shape or form- I'm just passing along useful information from the professional engine building field we're in, as we've tried them all at one point or another to know which one actually works and which one's are just plain junk...
BTW- we've actually measured individual cylinder AFR trims before on centrally located carb'd V8 engines and provided that your carbs are sync'ed, jetted the same, in good repair, etc. there is only typically .01-.03 AFR difference between the "lean" cylinder and the "rich" cylinder. Therefore, since most carbs are only controlled "dribble-mixers" at best, they don't typically have the capability or jet selection resolution to fine-tune the AFR mixture that close from cyl.-to-cyl. anyway, so it's easier and much more practicle to tune for the leanest bank of the engine and you'll be safe. Plus, the engine will produce excellent power, with very little measurable power differences (if at all) if you had went the ICT route in the first place.
Hope that helps.
john
They use common Volkswagon $90 Bosch UEGO wideband sensors in case you ever need to replace it, (and you will) plus they are free-air calibratable, for which most of the cheap kits mentioned in this very thread are *not*.
That feature is *EXTREMELY* important to have, because it allows you to re-calibrate the sensor to free air each time you use it, so you have a true measure of 20.6 (typical clean, free-air o2 content) as the sensor degrades over time. Without that function, you have absolutely *NO WAY* to quantify sensor degradation over time as it wears and if you let it go long enough, your tuning accuracy will suffer as your equipment skews out of whack...
Been there...done *ALL* of that.......
We typically use a precision lab-grade wideband/Lambda sensor module called a "Horiba" on our chassis/engine dynos here for the ultimate in AFR data accuracy- but it's not very user cost friendly at $8400 each...
The Innovate system is approx. $400 with the trick options and it's entirely portable, upgradable, very robust and easy to get parts/product support for. We use these in the car while tuning and periodically test it's accuracy against our Horiba to make sure it's working right- especially if we've tuned an engine that used leaded fuel or alky. So far after a year, it's still dead-on.
I'm not affiliated with any of these sensor manufacturers in any way, shape or form- I'm just passing along useful information from the professional engine building field we're in, as we've tried them all at one point or another to know which one actually works and which one's are just plain junk...
BTW- we've actually measured individual cylinder AFR trims before on centrally located carb'd V8 engines and provided that your carbs are sync'ed, jetted the same, in good repair, etc. there is only typically .01-.03 AFR difference between the "lean" cylinder and the "rich" cylinder. Therefore, since most carbs are only controlled "dribble-mixers" at best, they don't typically have the capability or jet selection resolution to fine-tune the AFR mixture that close from cyl.-to-cyl. anyway, so it's easier and much more practicle to tune for the leanest bank of the engine and you'll be safe. Plus, the engine will produce excellent power, with very little measurable power differences (if at all) if you had went the ICT route in the first place.
Hope that helps.
john
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Innovate is very highly thought of in the "tuner" community around Houston, they are very good kits.
The only reason I leaned heavily toward the Dynojet Wideband Commander was the Analog guage instead of a digital readout.
I didn't know about the "free air" thing; sounds like a very good capability to have.
And yes, these sensors ARE consumables, I went though two when it was on my wifes car my wifes car and have replaced it once since it went on my bike. The Dynojet uses a Bosch Lmu4 or something like that, can't remember exactly.
Here a pic of how it turned out.
That's a Raptor light mounted to the guage cup and an Autometer off to the left side that's driven by the WidebandCommander, I set them a few hundred rpm apart in order to create a two stage shift light setup.
Rusty
The only reason I leaned heavily toward the Dynojet Wideband Commander was the Analog guage instead of a digital readout.
I didn't know about the "free air" thing; sounds like a very good capability to have.
And yes, these sensors ARE consumables, I went though two when it was on my wifes car my wifes car and have replaced it once since it went on my bike. The Dynojet uses a Bosch Lmu4 or something like that, can't remember exactly.
Here a pic of how it turned out.
That's a Raptor light mounted to the guage cup and an Autometer off to the left side that's driven by the WidebandCommander, I set them a few hundred rpm apart in order to create a two stage shift light setup.
Rusty
Attachments
lankeeyankee
Well-Known Member
What is a "two stage shift light setup":ummm: I have been using a shiftlite for the past 15 years and this is all new to me. What are the advantages with a 2 stage shift light? Do you shift at different RPM's for different gears? That is the onlything I can think of.
Is it distracting at night time having not one light up but 2 shift lites on?
Is it distracting at night time having not one light up but 2 shift lites on?
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
No, what it's set up to do is the first lite goes on at about 300rpm before the second lite. Gives me something more to anticipate against rather than just reacting to one light.
It's probabaly overkill for sure but I had the parts laying around for free, you know how that is.
I originally got the idea from when I set up my wifes car for her to shift her auto in manual mode (350Z with an ATI Procharger supercharger)
With the supercharger you had to shift about 400-500 rpm before the rev limiter and do it in manual mode or it would over shoot rpm's and bouunce off the rev-limiter because when "on boost" the transmission couldn't make a shift fast enough in auto mode to stay out of the rev-limiter. It still did this even after I spent $850 on a valve body rebuild that was supposed to raise line pressure and cure it. It's a common problem on the VQ35 family when running any sort of F/I with an automatic tranny.
It gave HER something to anticiapte against rather than REACT to; once again probably overkill.
With it on the bike it helped my consistency alot, most of my runs are usually within .02-.04 of each other now.
Rusty
one2dmax
Well-Known Member
sorry man, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. You are reacting to the first light anyway wether you shift with it or not.
that is pretty darn consistent so times at the end and if you are getting good reation times on the launch you'll be tough to beat.
Sean
that is pretty darn consistent so times at the end and if you are getting good reation times on the launch you'll be tough to beat.
Sean
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
My reaction times are pretty decent on an ameteur tree where you get the yellow lights to go by; usually in the .130-.220 range.
On a pro-tree where there are no yellows they suck tho' usually in the .400 range:bang head:
What I'm really bad at is my 60' times, I have a lot of improvement to find in that area which is why I was asking about wheelie bars, slicks or whatever a while back.
Using two lights is probably more indicative of my ameteur skill than anything else, when I see the 1st lite I know to get ready to shift and can usually nail it right on the 2nd one.
If I was better at this stuf:icon_rolleyes:f I wouldn't need it, but for me it helps.
Rusty
one2dmax
Well-Known Member
your 60' improvements will only make your elapsed time faster but not change your consistency. The consistency is what will help you win. My typical "full" tree times are .150 and faster (usally .050) and I'm not too much slower then that with a "pro" tree (unless it's the first race in awhile - LOL).
That is where you are going to lose if you are going to. Someone like me can get a tenth of a second to play with just off of the reaction time. Doesn't sounds like much but when you are both within .02-.03 of your dial in that is a huge amount.
keep practicing. Your times and reactions are not bad at all and better then most of the street class guys that aren't regular racers (and some that are).
Sean Morley
That is where you are going to lose if you are going to. Someone like me can get a tenth of a second to play with just off of the reaction time. Doesn't sounds like much but when you are both within .02-.03 of your dial in that is a huge amount.
keep practicing. Your times and reactions are not bad at all and better then most of the street class guys that aren't regular racers (and some that are).
Sean Morley
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
The racing I do is strictly heads up against mostly sportbikes, I'm pretty used to getting waxed on a steady basisis. it's what they call "friday and sunday night street nights" which is a chance for all the newbies and street cars to run. You rarely have a choice even of who you run against unless you go out of your way in the staging lanes to make it happen.
Ocassionally there will be a Vrod or regular H-D out there but not very often
They do the brackets on Wednesdays and Saturdays but since it's more expensive to run and a lot more competitve I've never gotten involved with it. I'm happy with just going out there to run for ET only and find out what I can do against the clock.
Rusty
lankeeyankee
Well-Known Member
When I am bracket racing I am coming off the top bulb on a .500 tree. I am running a delay box (orange timer) with a hydrulic Mac Valve ran to a flow control. Everything is hidden so its awesome racing against dragbikes, they look over and say "Ohh just a street bike I can relax" Pop the first bulb and I can avg a .525 light with it.
I have learned with drag racing you are more consitent reacting to a flash rather than anticapating. Thats why they have delay boxes.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
"You are more consitent reacting to a flash rather than anticapating."
I agree when in regards to the tree lights, I "just go!" on the last yellow which I think the one out here at Houston Raceway Park is a .400 tree, at least someone said it was. With my "real" reaction times that usually nets me a decent "timeslip" reaction time .
I went thru my timeslips last nite while thinking about this and they were;
.005
.008
.032
.047
.056
.123
.133
.155
.179
.215
.231
.247
Not neccesarily in that order.
Believe it or not I may redlite only 1 time out of maybe 25 passes. Which ain't good but with some of those times it's pretty obvious i'm very close to redliting.
As for the dual shift lites, I suppose that reaction time for shifting, tiny as it is, probably isn't really all that important as long as the consistency is there. If I wanted to "nail" a certain RPM everytime it would be just as easy to simply set the light slightly earlier to compensate for whatever the reaction time to it is and still nail the shift on a specific RPM.
As far as what Sean said, in essence he's right but the first light is reaction, the second lite is anticipation. It's the same reason amateurs (like me) have better times on a "multiple yellow" tree than they do on a pro-tree. At least that's what I think. Who kows? it works for me.
The other thing is I Like the double lights, I think they're cool:biglaugh:
lankeeyankee
Well-Known Member
Those are pretty good lights for slinging the clutch There are 2 types of trees in dragracing. One is called a 500 tree which comes down 1 bulb at a time which is used from time trials and bracket racing where dial in's are used. The next is called a Pro Tree which all the lights flash at once after the stage lights have been lit.
The reason behind delay boxes are its more consitent to react to a flash rather than anticipating it. Once you are consitent with your reaction differing day night. you can compensate with a digital timer within .001 of a second. Usually I will react an avg of .007 faster at night time due to seeing the bulb as soon as it lights. If you keep practicing you will actually see the bulb light from dim to bright on a Christmas tree. Also a big thing is staging this makes a huge difference how consitent you are when staging along with many other factors. Bracket racing is like playing pool takes lots of practice and you have to do it on a regular bases.
Motorcycle bracket racing is a huge sport here in TN on an avg Saturday night we will have 35+ comp bikes and avg 10 street bikes and on a Tue street night an avg of 60
Also if you make an adjustable stop on your clutch lever this will make you more consitent slinging the clutch at the dragstrip
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input. I need all the help I can get.
Rusty
Rusty
lankeeyankee
Well-Known Member
Rusty
I will help with what I can. I have been drag racing motorcycles since 1988. I know we have a few other weekend warrior racers here also that may be help also as far as drag racing goes
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
I've never felt the need to be a top bulb racer, my RT's were fine using a air clutch type setup. They act similar to a line lock or a trans brake. Just pull in the clutch and press a button, hit the button again to release the clutch.
I used to read the tree, but the instant on of the LED trees eliminated that. even caused a few redlights cause the reaction was quicker.
I'd like to see some close ups of your delay box setup, I've never seen on on a bike before, it sounds interesting.
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
The main thing in drag racing thats holds true no matter if its on a 5 tenths, a 4 tenths, full or a pro tree, bracket or heads up, is consistancy. Try your best to do everything the same, every time.
Also there are several companies that make little portable trees to practise one. I used to use one made by Tag racing products.
They have a newer version thats the bees knees.:banana:
http://www.tagrace.com/mwpnext/store.asp
These things do help alot in lowering your RT. not to mention the great drinking games you can play with your friends during the off season
unk:
