richwrench
Well-Known Member
not after a six-pack your not ...:rofl_200:
Stock Camshaft Valve Event Specs??
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Well, that's good. I'm getting better, it used to take a case of beer. :biglaugh:
What do you mean? There are no "smoke and mirrors" in engine design, just what works and what doesn't based on R&D, trail and error or whatever else you want to call it.
Do you think another company outside of the camshaft manufacturer isn't capable of developing something on their own to their own specifications? Do you really think all the successful engine builders out there in all forms of racing (or street) use an "off-the-shelf" cam grind for their racing applications just because the cam companies "say" it's good? If you do, than you're very nieve and you've got a *LOT* to learn....
As I said before, we build very high performance street and racing GM Gen III and Gen IV engines here at my business and the way I get away from cars is playing with my motorcycles and ATV's. In nearly every single engine we've ever built here over the years, we take the engine configuration and input that information into an engineering program we use to accelerate the R&D process, so we spend less time changing parts and more time zero'ing in on the right combination to produce the power we want. In other words, an engine/camshaft spec'd for Bonneville's high speeds, will not be the same engine/camshaft we spec for a drag racer- or vise-versa.
Once we find the theoretical combination we want based on our engine modeling results, we call our chosen camshaft manufacturer and provide them with the specs we've developed, for which they grind that custom camshaft for us. There are literally limitless lobe combinations to choose from and one could spend all of his waking time trying to figure it all out. However, with CAD, we can speed things up in a hurry to where we hit the mark very closely the first time out with expected results based on our CAD model.
There is nothing "smoke and mirrors" about that and it's quite common amoung professional businesses that produce custom engines for different applications.
It seems the only thing this website is lacking is real, technical data/knowledge of the engine's design that one can use. Heck, up until I asked today, no one has ever rolled a set of stock camshafts after 25 years of the bike's release! I'd dare ask if anyone knows any cylinder head flow data, deck height specs, quench distances or any other technical information that you would think would be known by everybody these days who messes with these bikes.
As long as the topic is about exhaust systems, forks, seats or anything else but the internal engine, everyone knows everything about every topic. Where's the technical engine stuff that's missing??????
I don't know the answers....yet, that's why I'm asking the questions I do. You can be damn sure I'm going to find out the answers to my questions one way or another though- even if it means I have to take my own bike apart to find them, because to ask for that type of information here gets a guy flamed....
If you don't know the answer, than keep your negative comments and mouth shut until you do. Bashing a guy that askes technical information about a topic that you don't know or understand either, does no one any good, is foolish and just keeps everyone "dumbed down" when the guy says F**k this and never comes back to give you the free tech info he's gathered to help others.
I ask a simple question of cam event specs and some of you morons turn it into this... If you don't know the answers to the questions asked, keep your fuggin mouth shut and let someone else post who does, so we can all learn.
Idiots... Stupid is as stupid does...........
john
Do you think another company outside of the camshaft manufacturer isn't capable of developing something on their own to their own specifications? Do you really think all the successful engine builders out there in all forms of racing (or street) use an "off-the-shelf" cam grind for their racing applications just because the cam companies "say" it's good? If you do, than you're very nieve and you've got a *LOT* to learn....
As I said before, we build very high performance street and racing GM Gen III and Gen IV engines here at my business and the way I get away from cars is playing with my motorcycles and ATV's. In nearly every single engine we've ever built here over the years, we take the engine configuration and input that information into an engineering program we use to accelerate the R&D process, so we spend less time changing parts and more time zero'ing in on the right combination to produce the power we want. In other words, an engine/camshaft spec'd for Bonneville's high speeds, will not be the same engine/camshaft we spec for a drag racer- or vise-versa.
Once we find the theoretical combination we want based on our engine modeling results, we call our chosen camshaft manufacturer and provide them with the specs we've developed, for which they grind that custom camshaft for us. There are literally limitless lobe combinations to choose from and one could spend all of his waking time trying to figure it all out. However, with CAD, we can speed things up in a hurry to where we hit the mark very closely the first time out with expected results based on our CAD model.
There is nothing "smoke and mirrors" about that and it's quite common amoung professional businesses that produce custom engines for different applications.
It seems the only thing this website is lacking is real, technical data/knowledge of the engine's design that one can use. Heck, up until I asked today, no one has ever rolled a set of stock camshafts after 25 years of the bike's release! I'd dare ask if anyone knows any cylinder head flow data, deck height specs, quench distances or any other technical information that you would think would be known by everybody these days who messes with these bikes.
As long as the topic is about exhaust systems, forks, seats or anything else but the internal engine, everyone knows everything about every topic. Where's the technical engine stuff that's missing??????
I don't know the answers....yet, that's why I'm asking the questions I do. You can be damn sure I'm going to find out the answers to my questions one way or another though- even if it means I have to take my own bike apart to find them, because to ask for that type of information here gets a guy flamed....
If you don't know the answer, than keep your negative comments and mouth shut until you do. Bashing a guy that askes technical information about a topic that you don't know or understand either, does no one any good, is foolish and just keeps everyone "dumbed down" when the guy says F**k this and never comes back to give you the free tech info he's gathered to help others.
I ask a simple question of cam event specs and some of you morons turn it into this... If you don't know the answers to the questions asked, keep your fuggin mouth shut and let someone else post who does, so we can all learn.
Idiots... Stupid is as stupid does...........
john
I'm going to grind the cams in my bike in 2 different stages- one set designed for stock engine w/ slight bolt-on mods and the other for engines with mild modifications on stock displacement. Since I have 3 sets of cam cores here, I can do a bit of swapping around without much down time, until I get to my final destination.
Here are the mod plans for my bike this Summer w/ cams to match each "stage". I'd guess most folks fall into these catagory "stages", so I'll try to configure them out to what I like and use what others have successfully have done before me- just to keep it simple.
Since bike configurations are nearly endless, there is no possible, pratical way to grind something to fit every application, so I'll focus on what seems to be the "norm", as I don't want to get too radical with this thing. I do want to focus on producing a thick, broad power curve with a lot of curtain area, emphasizing broad torque first, then opening up the exhaust lobe to make the bike pull to redline without laying down at that RPM like it does now. This is why I was asking Shawn Kloker about SCR and DCR with the use of the cams he chose in a past thread. Those two specs are the most important info to have when trying to grind a cam that matches a particular application.
Stage I~
Engine: Stock
Exhaust: Stock or Dale Walker header/exhaust system
Induction: K&N air filter w/ associated stock carb calibration
Ignition: Stock or aftermarket ignition
Fuel: 87-93 octane pump gas
Stage II~
Engine: Ported cylinder heads, higher than stock compression
Exhaust: Dale Walker header/exhaust system
Induction: Same
Ignition: Either/Same
Fuel: 93 octane pump gas
I hope this works and I'm sending the cams out today!
john
I'm interested in your development and would appreciate you keeping me up to date on your progress.
richwrench
Well-Known Member
< snip >
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No problem and all I'm asking for is some dyno information, engine design (*ANYTHING*) useful on what's out there as far as all these packages that have been proven, so I can see where the starting point of reference is.
I cannot figure out where I'm going if I don't know where I am first, hence the reasons for me sending in my stock cams to be rolled to see where the factory started. I like to tinker and see if I can do better.
Below is a pic of a little 50cc mini-chopper we squeezed 2.2 more RWHP out of just with porting the head, messing with the ignition, fabbing up a make-shift header and re-jetting the thing. On a 7 HP rated engine from the factory, that's a 31% gain in power from "tinkering"!
Yeah...the "smoke and mirrors" were thick that day I tell you.... :icon_rolleyes:
john
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copilot777
Well-Known Member
I would also like some info John , I am not sure exactly how to port and polish the vmax heads . Any info in this matter would be greatly appreciated . Thanks ,JasonNo problem and all I'm asking for is some dyno information, engine design (*ANYTHING*) useful on what's out there as far as all these packages that have been proven, so I can see where the starting point of reference is.
I cannot figure out where I'm going if I don't know where I am first, hence the reasons for me sending in my stock cams to be rolled to see where the factory started. I like to tinker and see if I can do better.
Below is a pic of a little 50cc mini-chopper we squeezed 2.2 more RWHP out of just with porting the head, messing with the ignition, fabbing up a make-shift header and re-jetting the thing. On a 7 HP rated engine from the factory, that's a 31% gain in power from "tinkering"!
Yeah...the "smoke and mirrors" were thick that day I tell you.... :icon_rolleyes:
john
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Here's a couple more of those cylinder heads we've messed with for that chopper, along with a custom camshaft we had ground for it that we never got around to installing yet. The one on the left is the old one and the one on the right is the new one.
Maybe someday when time permits.
john
Maybe someday when time permits.
john
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Buster Hymen
Well-Known Member
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Hmm, seems PCW had the best package on their motors with the flatslides and now, low and behold, Morleys jet kit is giving better numbers and results. Why do you think that " it's been like that for a long time" is the best way? With that type of thinking there would never be any improvements in anything.
Well, I just went out into the shop and broke our our trick "smoke & mirrors" equipment to get some specs on this stuff from the parts I do have here. Pics below and here is what I've found thus far for the non-azzholes that wanted to know.
Stk. Cyl. Head Combustion Chamber (CC) Vol.: 23cc +/- .2cc
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Compressed Thickness: .028"
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Dia.: 3.042" (nominal)
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Compressed Vol.: 3.334cc
More to come later when I figure this stuff out.
john
Stk. Cyl. Head Combustion Chamber (CC) Vol.: 23cc +/- .2cc
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Compressed Thickness: .028"
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Dia.: 3.042" (nominal)
Stk. Cyl. Head Gskt. Compressed Vol.: 3.334cc
More to come later when I figure this stuff out.
john
Attachments
agree with what your saying, was just talking about cams...but i get your point...... i hope the cam will be made ... road tested,,,dyno tested...ill wait for results.....cam going to be made for stock compression or a high compression motor...1200 motor or larger.....hopefully 180 hp would be nice:biglaugh:
one2dmax
Well-Known Member
don't have the specs with me right now but I have deck height and some other info. I believe the heads flow around 115-120cfm close to stock. You are correct on cc's (which you didn't ask about). You are probably right on the head gasket too. They are about .032 uncompressed.
The pistons sit about .050 down into the bore which is remedied with custom pistons or knocking .040 off the deck (improves quench, flame travel, and compression - without getting new pistons).
I am sure PCW has played around with diff cam events but what you are asking for are secrets to thier engine builds that have cost them time and money to develop.
Sean Morley
The pistons sit about .050 down into the bore which is remedied with custom pistons or knocking .040 off the deck (improves quench, flame travel, and compression - without getting new pistons).
I am sure PCW has played around with diff cam events but what you are asking for are secrets to thier engine builds that have cost them time and money to develop.
Sean Morley
Thanks Sean.
Just so I'm clear~ I'm not asking any other performance engine builder for their specs on how they do things, as I wouldn't give that information out either. I was just looking for stock specs of how the stock engine is put together as a reference point to go off of. That stock-type info shouldn't infringe on anyone's business, since it's public knowledge.
One thing I was curious about though.. I see most motorcycle head porters display their airflow results using 10" of H2o as the draw, but when we port automotive heads, we use the industry standard of 28" of H2o for street stuff and 25" for racing stuff to show our airflow data.
I wonder why there is a difference like that? Is that the industry standard for small motorcycle heads then? :ummm: If it is, I guess I should use the same standards as everyone else is to keep everything equal.
Any thoughts?
john
Just so I'm clear~ I'm not asking any other performance engine builder for their specs on how they do things, as I wouldn't give that information out either. I was just looking for stock specs of how the stock engine is put together as a reference point to go off of. That stock-type info shouldn't infringe on anyone's business, since it's public knowledge.
One thing I was curious about though.. I see most motorcycle head porters display their airflow results using 10" of H2o as the draw, but when we port automotive heads, we use the industry standard of 28" of H2o for street stuff and 25" for racing stuff to show our airflow data.
I wonder why there is a difference like that? Is that the industry standard for small motorcycle heads then? :ummm: If it is, I guess I should use the same standards as everyone else is to keep everything equal.
Any thoughts?
john
one2dmax
Well-Known Member
well, you can establish your own baseline settings but you'll need to use the same thing if you want to be able to compare (or have others compare) your work. We are going to be experimenting with making a "fast burn" chamber in the near future. I need to find a customer who wants to be the first one to try it. Porting cost is twice as much since there is a considerable amount of reshaping done but we feel there is some good gains to be made.
What you are planning is great and for someone with the time and money would be the best thing to have done. We don't have that kind of budget or even time. We are using tried and tested power increasing methods which may or may not be the best way to go about it.
Good luck in your endeavors.
Sean
What you are planning is great and for someone with the time and money would be the best thing to have done. We don't have that kind of budget or even time. We are using tried and tested power increasing methods which may or may not be the best way to go about it.
Good luck in your endeavors.
Sean
Thanks for the help.
As far as "time" is for me, it's a premium around here too and I'm going to work on it through the Summer as I can, plus I don't want my bike down very long while testing stuff. Since I'm going to keep it for awhile, might as well have a lil' fun with her!
I just sent the cams out yesterday, so I'll probably have them back in a couple of weeks or so, not counting the upcoming Holiday Weeekend. I do have a few spares of most of what I need, but in case I need an engine part, (or maybe just aother whole engine) can I purchase that stuff from you?
john
As far as "time" is for me, it's a premium around here too and I'm going to work on it through the Summer as I can, plus I don't want my bike down very long while testing stuff. Since I'm going to keep it for awhile, might as well have a lil' fun with her!
I just sent the cams out yesterday, so I'll probably have them back in a couple of weeks or so, not counting the upcoming Holiday Weeekend. I do have a few spares of most of what I need, but in case I need an engine part, (or maybe just aother whole engine) can I purchase that stuff from you?
john
one2dmax
Well-Known Member
Of course I'd sell you plenty of parts but if you are just needing stuff to measure of cut up to examine I can probably come up with junk parts to do that with. I've got at least one set of big cams I won't be installing right away including one that has some damage so it's not a useable cam but would be great to measure from.
That would be great and any information I collect from all of this, you can certainly have for your own records if you want. I'm all about sharing what i come up with.
The specs I need next are these~
1. Stock connecting rod center to center length
2. The distance from the outer edge of the piston crown, down to the top of the first ring land. (crevice volume)
3. The overall stock deck height as measured from the crankshaft's rotating axis point to the deck of the installed cylinder as it would be assembled stock.
I'm going to put all this engine configuration information into our CAD program to develop this stuff more easily- especially since I'm learning on this engine here, so that should help a lot to hit the nail on the head the first time. (or at least be darn close) LoL!
What I would like to buy or borrow from you is a stock rod, a stock piston, a stock piston ring set, a set of stock cam sprockets and anything else you might think is worth while to look at or if you need something measured you're interested in. I can either buy that stuff from you or I can give you a deposit to borrow it while I have it- whichever you prefer.
Thanks for helping Sean, it's nice to finally have some assistance in this instead of resistance and I'll do what I can to give back with what I learn from all of this that may even help your biz! :cheers:
john
The specs I need next are these~
1. Stock connecting rod center to center length
2. The distance from the outer edge of the piston crown, down to the top of the first ring land. (crevice volume)
3. The overall stock deck height as measured from the crankshaft's rotating axis point to the deck of the installed cylinder as it would be assembled stock.
I'm going to put all this engine configuration information into our CAD program to develop this stuff more easily- especially since I'm learning on this engine here, so that should help a lot to hit the nail on the head the first time. (or at least be darn close) LoL!
What I would like to buy or borrow from you is a stock rod, a stock piston, a stock piston ring set, a set of stock cam sprockets and anything else you might think is worth while to look at or if you need something measured you're interested in. I can either buy that stuff from you or I can give you a deposit to borrow it while I have it- whichever you prefer.
Thanks for helping Sean, it's nice to finally have some assistance in this instead of resistance and I'll do what I can to give back with what I learn from all of this that may even help your biz! :cheers:
john
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Hey Backfire,
Glad youve decided to stick around here and continue your development after all th B.S. Even though no one here obviously seems to have the knowledge and/or experience you do, which is pretty obvious. This site is in my opinion is basically worthless to you, since there hasnt been any constructive info at this technical level, because no one has any!!! just a few nay sayers, although I see Sean and some others are supportive in your endeavor. Keep us posted. wether you fail or succeed, at least you are willing/optimistic, if you and everyone in the wolrd were pescimists, where would we be?
Have you tried John Gainey of www.pcwracing.net Might be kinda odd for a builder to go to another builder for info, even though its stock info.
Im not too mechanically inclined but, cant you or dont you have the capabilities to measure these parts yourself?
I was going to PM you, looks like you dont have that set up. I have some knowledge on some Top Secret performance work being done by one of the top motocycle engine builders in the country.
Glad youve decided to stick around here and continue your development after all th B.S. Even though no one here obviously seems to have the knowledge and/or experience you do, which is pretty obvious. This site is in my opinion is basically worthless to you, since there hasnt been any constructive info at this technical level, because no one has any!!! just a few nay sayers, although I see Sean and some others are supportive in your endeavor. Keep us posted. wether you fail or succeed, at least you are willing/optimistic, if you and everyone in the wolrd were pescimists, where would we be?
Have you tried John Gainey of www.pcwracing.net Might be kinda odd for a builder to go to another builder for info, even though its stock info.
Im not too mechanically inclined but, cant you or dont you have the capabilities to measure these parts yourself?
I was going to PM you, looks like you dont have that set up. I have some knowledge on some Top Secret performance work being done by one of the top motocycle engine builders in the country.
Thanks for the word of encouragement- I appreciate it.
I'm just an average guy that plays with motorcycles and ATV's as a hobby (have since I was a kid) that gives me a break away from car-stuff, which just like anything else one does everyday, can get hum-drum sometimes. Afterall, doing something you like to do for a living as your job, is still a job.... Bikes and ATV's give me a break from that once in a while.
I don't really want to call a professional motorcycle engine builder to ask them questions about what they do- even if it's for stock engine specs, because that's how they make their living, so I don't want to intrude or infringe on their livelihood. However, since I only do this for a hobby and don't rely on it to put food on the table or to keep the lights on, I'm more than willing to share with others the information I collect (even with the VMAX pro's if they want it) just to help others. Personally, I think it's quite fun to figure something out for myself, even if if someone has done it already before me, as I'm never too old to learn something new!
I'm not interested in making any money off all of this- success or fail, so I'll just keep plunking away until I'm done. If anyone can use the info provided for their own bike, you're welcome to have at it- it's all good!
Heck, after it's all said and done, if I gain at least 1/4 of the VMAX engine knowledge that guys like Sean Morley, Dale Walker, John Furbur, PCW or any of the other pioneering VMAX pro's over the years have obtained, I would be happy with just that!
The one thing I do have here is *a lot* of engine technology equipment/CAD development programs that we use to develop our auto racing engine configurations, which I can use to figure a lot of this stuff out for the MAX motor quickly. That's a plus.
Oh, by the way- I've been to a *lot* of other VMAX sites in the last couple of years and overall, I like this site the best! It's layed out and organized very well, there are topics that just about cover anything you'd want to know about and it's very fast. If anything, maybe I can contribute a little with some tech info that might bring others to Buster's site to make it grow. Heck, what other forum-based website can you go to and play the *real* arcade version of Asteroids while reading up on how to tune your VMAX carbs at the same time!!!!!! WhoooHoooooo!unk:
john
I'm just an average guy that plays with motorcycles and ATV's as a hobby (have since I was a kid) that gives me a break away from car-stuff, which just like anything else one does everyday, can get hum-drum sometimes. Afterall, doing something you like to do for a living as your job, is still a job.... Bikes and ATV's give me a break from that once in a while.
I don't really want to call a professional motorcycle engine builder to ask them questions about what they do- even if it's for stock engine specs, because that's how they make their living, so I don't want to intrude or infringe on their livelihood. However, since I only do this for a hobby and don't rely on it to put food on the table or to keep the lights on, I'm more than willing to share with others the information I collect (even with the VMAX pro's if they want it) just to help others. Personally, I think it's quite fun to figure something out for myself, even if if someone has done it already before me, as I'm never too old to learn something new!
Yes I do, but I don't have many spare parts here to work with yet. That's why I wanted to buy/borrow some parts from Sean so I can see what I'm working with first-hand. I could always buy spare parts from Ebay too I guess.
I'm not interested in making any money off all of this- success or fail, so I'll just keep plunking away until I'm done. If anyone can use the info provided for their own bike, you're welcome to have at it- it's all good!
Heck, after it's all said and done, if I gain at least 1/4 of the VMAX engine knowledge that guys like Sean Morley, Dale Walker, John Furbur, PCW or any of the other pioneering VMAX pro's over the years have obtained, I would be happy with just that!
The one thing I do have here is *a lot* of engine technology equipment/CAD development programs that we use to develop our auto racing engine configurations, which I can use to figure a lot of this stuff out for the MAX motor quickly. That's a plus.
Oh, by the way- I've been to a *lot* of other VMAX sites in the last couple of years and overall, I like this site the best! It's layed out and organized very well, there are topics that just about cover anything you'd want to know about and it's very fast. If anything, maybe I can contribute a little with some tech info that might bring others to Buster's site to make it grow. Heck, what other forum-based website can you go to and play the *real* arcade version of Asteroids while reading up on how to tune your VMAX carbs at the same time!!!!!! WhoooHoooooo!
unk:john
