Traffic Ticket advice

[davidon]

Got flagged for making a left turn while light was "red". Never fought a ticket before but light was definately yellow when I turned. How do you prove your word against a cops? Cop was about not behind me either so i don't know how accurate his view of what happened was

 

[RaWarrior]

Unfortunately, traffic light tickets are pretty hard to contest. Speeding tickets often have a way out if you're willing to do a little work and go to court(proving the gun wasn't calibrated, a branch was covering the sign), but something like this is strictly your word against his.

The good news...the ticket will be (relatively) small. "Falilure to obey a traffic device" is usually what speeding tickets get knocked down to. In NY, one of those tickets cost me $200(the original 72 in a 55 ticket would have run about $350).

If you check "not guilty" on the ticket and mail it back, you will get a "pre trial conference" date...it is NOT a court date. You go there, typically meet with a "sitting counsel", and if he's in a good mood he'll knock the ticket down, sometimes with a stipulation like no more violations for 6 months, or take a driving class. If you think you really have a case(which you don't, nobody does for this sort of thing), you refuse the guy's offer and he will give you an actual court date.

Unless it's a big conflict with work or the city hall is far away, it's usually worth your time go mark not guilty and go to the conference. Accept the plea bargain and be on your way.

Remember, all they want is your money. They'd rather get a little less money out of you with a bargain that risk getting none if you get out of it in court.

 

[dannymax]

Got flagged for making a left turn while light was "red". Never fought a ticket before but light was definately yellow when I turned. How do you prove your word against a cops? Cop was about not behind me either so i don't know how accurate his view of what happened was

Good question....maybe just by virtue of the fact you're fighting it might convince the judge to reduce it or maybe even throw it out.

 

[zippo6]

Tell them since your front tire was in the air, you had a MUCH better angle to see the light than the cop ever did........ no?

 

[davidon]

ticket is for 140..this was coming straight out of my work parking lot..first light. BTW this was in a car not bike. May try the not guilty..never been to court so it might be a good experience but I'd have to pay for parking to go there. Even if they knock the fine down half is it still worth it is what I have to ask myself.

 

[Geek_Law]

It's pretty easy to fight it. I think it is good that it's a LH turn violation and NOT a speeding ticket, since there is no OBJECTIVE evidence. Although, it would be interesting to know whether he had a camera.

Anyway, this is not legal advice of course, but ... in my opinion ... if you want to fight it, check not-guilty, show up at the court date or the pre-trial, and just be honest, sincere, RESPECTFUL, and state that this is NOT worth $140.00 to fight about, but you simply cannot in good conscious pay a ticket for a violation that you did not commit.

Explain that you were looking AT the light, and had a head on viewing angle (assuming this is the fact) and that he was NOT looking at the light, and had a poor viewing angle (again, assuming this is the fact), and that you regret wasting the court's time, but nevertheless, respectfully request that they dismiss the case in your favor.

It's as simple as that. Yes, it's his word against yours, but use the facts in your favor. You were looking at the light, and paying attention to the light, and he was not looking at the light, nor was he likely dedicating his attention to the light as he was not waiting to turn safely, but rather, he was working as a cop ... which means he was doing 10 things at once, working on the computer, trying to get home safe, talking to the dispatcher, looking for criminals, etc.

You could even say, look, this seems like an honest misunderstanding on his part, which is understandable, but I just cannot look the other way and admit to a violation that I did not commit. That seems more wrong than actually running a red light.

In my experience, deference and honesty will give you credibility. Credibility will swing the presumption in your favor.

If you want to make a federal case out of it, which I do not recommend, you could start trying to subpoena any video footage he has, logs from his radar, computer activity logs, dispatch recording/logs for the time, cell phone usage logs for the time in question, GPS data/logs for the time in question, his shifts for the week (e.g. maybe he was tired), repair info for the light, and all sorts of stuff.

Hell, you could even request a deposition.

All that stuff is fun, and will really piss off the cops, and annoy the court, but much of it could be used in your favor. If you were a professional driver of some sorts, this might be advisable, but here, I'd just tell your story and be respectful.

Ugh ... ok, rant over.

 

[davidon]

Good point about not paying in good conscience for not breaking the law. That's my take on it. Was going to say something like that anyway..never once tried to contest anything but this is the one time I must object to the charge

 

[Geek_Law]

I personally think you have a good case. It may be a waste of time, but so is me sitting down and wrenching on my bike and changing my own oil.

There is a sense of satisfaction to be had out of these things.

Best of luck, and do let us know what happens.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

car cameras only work when the lights and sireeeeeens is on.

 

[Geek_Law]

car cameras only work when the lights and sireeeeeens is on.

I did not know this. A whole new world of possibilities has just opened up for me :worthy:

 

[Mr. Pickles]

well, in the few VA municipalities that are represented by constables who double as my riding buddies.

 

[Hatter]

Explain that you were looking AT the light, and had a head on viewing angle (assuming this is the fact) and that he was NOT looking at the light, and had a poor viewing angle (again, assuming this is the fact), and that you regret wasting the court's time, but nevertheless, respectfully request that they dismiss the case in your favor.

It's as simple as that. Yes, it's his word against yours, but use the facts in your favor. You were looking at the light, and paying attention to the light, and he was not looking at the light, nor was he likely dedicating his attention to the light as he was not waiting to turn safely, but rather, he was working as a cop ... which means he was doing 10 things at once, working on the computer, trying to get home safe, talking to the dispatcher, looking for criminals, etc.

You could even say, look, this seems like an honest misunderstanding on his part, which is understandable, but I just cannot look the other way and admit to a violation that I did not commit. That seems more wrong than actually running a red light.

In my experience, deference and honesty will give you credibility. Credibility will swing the presumption in your favor.

Remember. You are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. The burden of proof is on the officer.

Good Luck.

 

[KJShover]

Anyway, this is not legal advice of course, but ... in my opinion ... if you want to fight it, check not-guilty, show up at the court date or the pre-trial, and just be honest, sincere, RESPECTFUL, and state that this is NOT worth $140.00 to fight about, but you simply cannot in good conscious pay a ticket for a violation that you did not commit.

+1 on everything but this part. as soon as a judge hears this, they are going to go into "oh well no big deal" mode and and you have just lost cause basically paying the fine isn't a big deal, but your still saying you didn't do anything wrong. Can you say mixed signals? and in traffic court 90% mixed signals means you did it, to the judge.

Build a good offence, take a few pictures of the area where the light is and where you are. Draw a diagram of the street, include your position, the light's position, and the cop's position. Unlike the more easy to finght speeding ticket, this is a he said/she said case, so you have to show that you were in a better position to see the light. Also include the time of day and the sun's position. the sun could have been in his eyes until he was up on the red traffic light.

Above all avoid any argument. You'll have your time to talk. Be respectful and make good eye contact with whome you speak. I imagine it will be the judge/magistrate.

get a copy of the report. there should be one. Up here I've written countless reports for contacts I've made. It's there you might be able to punch a whole in his case.

There is also the chance that the cop will not show up for court and the ticket will get tossed.

It sounds like alot of work, but it's actually not. The main thing is be prepared and respectful, and not argumentative.

hope this helps.

 

[twistedmax]

Refer to your states driving manul,Id be willing to bet that somewhere in there it says ,or makes referance to SAFETY,your to stop for a yellow light when you can do so SAFELY. aruge tha it was safer to run the YELLOW light then to try to stop. all of this to be done as respectfully as posable.

 

[Rollie]

Dress up for court , look like a lawyer if you have the duds.

 

[KJShover]

Almost forgot, Time that yellow light and mind your speed.

ie; it takes the light XX-seconds to go from yellow to red. light was yellow for +/- X-seconds and I was traveling y-ft./sec therefore I would have been z-ft in the intersection when the light turned red.

 

[Geek_Law]

+1 on everything but this part.

Fair point. I am persuaded. Don't send the mixed signal.

 

[KJShover]

Fair point. I am persuaded. Don't send the mixed signal.

When I was still a cop, I've watched many a good case go up in smoke cause of mixed signals. Even worse in trials when the DA's key in on it, its like a shark smelling blood in the water.

 

[davidon]

Taking pics and timing the light = good idea. Getting a copy of the report is also a good idea but this may work against me. When i was stopped he said he could have nailed me for two other things but let them slide..
First was failing to stop at a stop sign before making a right turn (I was 90 degrees from getting in the left lane) which I also don't agree with because there are 5 lanes of traffic to get to the left lane from where I was. If you don't stop to look back you will get crushed. Second was crossing all lanes of traffic to get to the left lane without first making a right turn to gain access to the road and then easing over lane by lane until in the left. This was true but in my 10 years of leaving this parking lot I have not seen one person do this and it does'nt make any sense because there is not enough distance to pull this off (light is very close to where I turn to get to the left).
Also learned you go to court here there is no pre-court meeting

 

[Geek_Law]

Taking pics and timing the light = good idea. Getting a copy of the report is also a good idea but this may work against me. When i was stopped he said he could have nailed me for two other things but let them slide..
First was failing to stop at a stop sign before making a right turn (I was 90 degrees from getting in the left lane) which I also don't agree with because there are 5 lanes of traffic to get to the left lane from where I was. If you don't stop to look back you will get crushed. Second was crossing all lanes of traffic to get to the left lane without first making a right turn to gain access to the road and then easing over lane by lane until in the left. This was true but in my 10 years of leaving this parking lot I have not seen one person do this and it does'nt make any sense because there is not enough distance to pull this off (light is very close to where I turn to get to the left).
Also learned you go to court here there is no pre-court meeting

Couple of things to keep in mind:

1) The fact that others have done something and not been busted is NOT persuasive to the court.

2) However, your other point is persuasive to the court. If it is MORE DANGEROUS to adhere to a statute than to not adhere to the statute (e.g., its safer to break the law), then you are not liable for an office or damages resulting from your having broken that particular law.

This is a basic tenet of the law. You should strive to obey the rules and laws of society, but if doing so puts you into greater danger, than common sense dictates, as does judicial interpretation, that you need not obey that particular law, in that particular instance.