V-Max originally a Harley design they rejected

[Fire-medic]

I found this old post on another site, seems like our favorite ride is being represented as a 'cast-off' by Harley Davidson, which was then bought by Yamaha...

The V-Max was originally a Harley design , known as the "Nova" project. The engine was co-designed by Porsche, and when H-D killed the Nova project, the design was later sold to Yamaha.

Never in my years of owning my 'Max have I ever run-across anything that would corroborate this tale. Anyone care to differ? And, yes, I am aware of the H-D Nova Project. When H-D was bought by the employees in the early 1980's, the Nova Project had been going right along since the late 1970's. The new corporate group decided to do what they knew best, and they released the Evolution engine bikes. They didn't have enough corporate funding to do that, and to continue the Nova to market, so they quietly dropped the Nova. Of course, years later, they released the VRod, but it was never anything but a DOHC V-twin, whereas the Nova was proposed to be a modular design of V-4 and V-6 DOHC configurations in different displacements. Shots taken by me in Milwaukee. Note the different multi-cyl designs in the shelved engines, the side cases remind me of the NSU TTS-sourced (a small German car engine) Munch Mammoths or the revived Triumph Trophy designs. http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/engi...-oldtimer-day-berlin-brandenburg-42575260.jpg


So, anyone care to rebut?

 

[falling]

Ummm...wasn't Hardley in the midst of AMF hell in the early 1980's?

There is no way the Japanese would have allowed a bowling company to have any influence on their design. Soy sauce maybe...bowling pins, no.


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[jinks]

Wow,..interesting pics for sure. I never knew those engines existed. A v-4 Harley, ..now that's interesting. I think you posted enough evidence to show that "something" was certainly in the works.

 

[jdeitz1979]

If it was to be a Harley it would have the signature oil drip haha.


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[DMAN999]

Here's more info about Harley's NOVA project (designed by Porshce).
http://big-diesel.blogspot.com/2007/09/nova-harley-davidson-which-was-never.html
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/149488225.html



BUT, they didn't sell it to Yamaha (to be turned into a Vmax) as can be seen by reading the Vmax design history:
http://www.vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/vmaxstory/custom.html

 

[tinman22]

A good thing Yamaha didn't buy in to a Harley fail. those tacky fake scoops and that horrible stepped seat who would ride such a monstrosity!

 

[Zeus36]

From April 12, 2015 @ the Kneeslider:

http://thekneeslider.com/harley-davidson-v4-engine-prototype-photos/


..."Why not a V4?

The Motus custom Brian Case put together and the printed concept you see here makes it clear you can put a V4 in a naked bike without the overdone styling of the new VMax. Just let the engine show and let the sound and performance speak for itself. Unfortunately, if this was the ill fated V4 the Motor Company was considering, I doubt it will ever see the light of day, but it sure would have been a breath of fresh air and tire smoke..."

 

[Fire-medic]

i think The H-D Co should have spent more time w/MV Agusta in its lineup, and developed MV into a sportbike line in the same dealerships w/the air-cooled twins at first, and then perhaps the separate dealerships once MV Agusta developed a large-enough following. Why together at first? Because the V-twin/V-4 relationship would carry the V-4 sportbike until enough riders were buying them, and then allow the spin-off after a few years. A 'Saturn' plan for motorcycling? Except for the failed business model part, and linked to H-D dealerships to get off the ground. Yes, in many instances, the separation of the two would be better, but to make it most financially appealing to existing H-D dealers, I think the 'together' initial business model would need to be implemented. Have other brands released stand-alone brands? Of course, Victory, Indian, Triumph are the ones which succeeded, Excelsior-Henderson, didn't.

Look at MV Agusta, look at the proposed design, look at Buell, the propsed V-4 design favors MV more than the iconoclast Buell designs. I suppose they thought that in the 2009 economic downturn, they didn't want to burn through a stack of $$$$ trying to launch a new line outside of their comfort zone.

 

[sdt354]

I think HD was afraid the Harley faithful would reject anything deviating from the Hog look and sound. I mean, most of HD faithful look down on their own Sportster model, for some reason I don't understand. The V-rod was not aimed at the typical HD owner IMHO. I'm just glad Yamaha ran with the v-4.

 

[jfeagins]

To be brutally honest here, the VERY FIRST TIME I ever laid eyes on the dealership only poster for our beloved 1985 Vmax, I curdled my nose and bitched about why Mother Yamaha would want to go and create something that resembled a "f*cking Harley. Said it out loud on two separate occasions during Dec 1984 & again early Jan 1985 to the dealer. I thought that I-4 engine configuration presented a Harley-like side view, and hated it. But upon that second visit, the dealer said "not so fast. You may change your mind about the upcoming Vmax if you read the specs." The next time in, they had the smaller, handout type brochures and gave me one. It had the hp numbers and estimated ET's listed on it.

I put my 1st 85 on order shortly after..............

 

[old timer]

I , for one , am sorry HD didn't carry on with that thought . V4's are the next step after the archaic V twin design they have stuck with since the 1700's ( :icon_rolleyes: ) . The roll-on power a V4 makes is so much bettah than the ' instant ' power of an inline . Oh well , shouldah , couldah , wouldah...:confused2:

 

[caseyjones955]

I know that the HD v4 project never came to fruition but never heard anything about Yamaha buying it up, the sketches I saw looked pretty different from the Yamaha V4. Harley is doing well selling the seriously outdated V twin to a dying breed of people willing to spend BMW money on KLR level technology and tolerate the lethargic performance, sketchy reliability/longevity. HD has 2, maybe 3 decades left as a viable mfg. The days of $40,000+ bikes that cant outrun an SV650 are numbered. To think that they have something to contribute to any serious motorcycle company is a parody of all that is motorcycling. I read the story if how the Vmax came to be and they left out the part about buying plans from a seriously underwhelming company known for parade bikes. It's a nasty rumor like the one about Santa not being real.

On the list of things that I consider extremely unlikely, I'll put this right above the 2nd coming. :clapping:

 

[Bill Seward]

Harley Davidson™ makes more money selling overpriced Motorclothes™, and various Chinese made novelties than they make selling motorcycles.. True story.. Remember back when you were in elementary school and Valentines day rolled around? You all gave each other those little Valentines? My son got one one time - a "Genuine"™ Harley-Davidson™ Valentine. I swear, There was a tiny oil spot on the kitchen table where we put it to get a laugh over it. I think Ian was in like second grade, and even then he saw the joke that is all things Harley™..


All words followed by "™" are the property of the Harley-Davidson Motor Company™, and are used without permission... LOL!

 

[caseyjones955]

As a business model its very solid, they found a way to sell this stuff, there is quite the market for HD money clips, dew rags, boots and belt buckles aside from the novelty bikes. There has to be a HUGE markup on the bikes, their R&D department has to be a joke. I understand why a GT1600 is ~20k, I will NEVER understand how you take a CVO anything and sell it for anything over about $7k, BMW just crafted that delicious inline 6 for the bike, you know they spent HUGE to develop that jewel, while HD keeps churning out the same ol' crap with different perfume. HD will probably try to pick table scraps from Yamaha in a futile attempt to make a competitive bike at a price wiser consumers are willing to pay. I stand by my prediction that HD will be largely gone or scaled WAY back within about a generation or so. There will be empty storefronts with the faded paint in the shape of the HD wings while Japanese and Euro manufacturers thrive.

Understanding these things makes it really hard to think that Yamaha is picking up table scraps from HD. It totally defies explanation. I'm sure it's a troll rumor made to get reactions like this from guys like me.

 

[jinks]

Wow, that Harley pic posted earlier sure looks a lot like a Vmax to me. Somebody was looking over some ones shoulder for sure ! There must be a grain of truth to the story,..this is way to much to be just coincidence . For sure Yamaha knew they could build it. This was just way to new for Harley and their backwards thinking. Harley did try a lot of different things in the AMF years. They failed at their first Vmax attempt , but they wouldn't let the idea go and when the timing was right......they launched the V- ROD ! I honestly believe Yamaha caught wind of Harleys early attempt and Jumped on it. Put both bikes 100 feet away and they look pretty close. Look what all the Japanese company's did in the mid 80's....they copied the Sportster. They were kicking out more V-Twins than Harley !! Of course they stole the Vmax Idea ! Why wouldn't they ? Harley is in big trouble now and they know it,....they started building the new 2015 series in India,.."the 700 & 750 Street". Its a flimsy bike, & looks like a scaled down V-rod,..but its selling.

 

[caseyjones955]

To the credit of HD, traditionally when they tried to think outside the box,the purists would cry out "**** that, it's not a REAL Harley", the Vrod was a joke and if you rode one you must be a poser, but really a damn decent bike for a Harley. Had Eric Buell had access to that engine instead of that ****** Sportster engine than bikes like the Lightning X1 might still be coveted unique canyon carvers instead of a sport-ish bike with a bilge pump quality engine. A great effort thwarted by an infusion of old school thinking.

The catch is that HD could not vary from the mold lest it alienate its huge but dwindling base of buyers that were plenty happy with antiquated technology and overpriced flamboyant bolt-ons, so even if they were sitting on a sweet V4 design, what could they do with it? Now with Polaris making big twin bikes and doing a significantly better job of it, there is more trouble for HD. I know they are trying to break into the middleweight class but the market is already saturated with highly competent, high quality middleweight bikes. It's to little to late. IMHO there is no way they could have pulled off a V4, not in 81 and not now. The sketches I saw looked different from Yamaha but perhaps I saw a different writeup, I was unable to find anything that looked anything like a Vmax, I saw a "Nova" that was a bit different, If I'm not mistaken the HD version was air cooled and appears completely different other than the V4 part. I will admit the scoops do appear on the HD and bear resemblance. I believe this is most likely coincidence. So did Yamaha get the idea for V4 from Harley, I doubt it but I cant say for sure. I feel secure in the belief that the engines in our Maxes were not a HD design. How does the Honda V65 fit into this? It looked different and had no scoops, but still a pretty snorting V4, could this be inspired in any way by HDs Nova project? Did Yamaha take the V4 cue from Honda instead or maybe all on their own. I really would love to know. I know the V65 appeared a couple years before the Vmax and a couple years after the Nova project was a thing. This information must be out there somewhere, but I cant find it.

 

[BorgBiker]

Gotta remember that the V-max was the result of Yamaha hot-rodding a Venture motor in a new chassis. The Nova motor was only superficially similar, and spec-wise no more similar to a V-max than a Madura 1200 V4 or Magna 1100 V4. The early 80's were the 1st round of production V4 design, and Harley was in no position to compete. Heck they barely survived those times!

If it came out in 1978, it could have been a big deal. By 1983, it would have been old-school, old hat, and way behind the curve. Pus it would have had Harley's legendary (lack of) reliability. So it had that going for it...

 

[caseyjones955]

I notice the Vmax looks more slender and flowing whereas the HD has a boxy first prototype look, suitable for a prototype I guess. My vote is still 100% unrelated. That is a helluva nice Max there.

 

[Dorney]

Other then being a V-4 there doesn't seem to be anything in common engine wise. As far as bikes go the one looks some what like a Venture but as for a V-Max I don't see it. :ummm:

 

[jinks]

To the credit of HD, traditionally when they tried to think outside the box,the purists would cry out "**** that, it's not a REAL Harley", the Vrod was a joke and if you rode one you must be a poser, but really a damn decent bike for a Harley. Had Eric Buell had access to that engine instead of that ****** Sportster engine than bikes like the Lightning X1 might still be coveted unique canyon carvers instead of a sport-ish bike with a bilge pump quality engine. A great effort thwarted by an infusion of old school thinking.

The catch is that HD could not vary from the mold lest it alienate its huge but dwindling base of buyers that were plenty happy with antiquated technology and overpriced flamboyant bolt-ons, so even if they were sitting on a sweet V4 design, what could they do with it? Now with Polaris making big twin bikes and doing a significantly better job of it, there is more trouble for HD. I know they are trying to break into the middleweight class but the market is already saturated with highly competent, high quality middleweight bikes. It's to little to late. IMHO there is no way they could have pulled off a V4, not in 81 and not now. The sketches I saw looked different from Yamaha but perhaps I saw a different writeup, I was unable to find anything that looked anything like a Vmax, I saw a "Nova" that was a bit different, If I'm not mistaken the HD version was air cooled and appears completely different other than the V4 part. I will admit the scoops do appear on the HD and bear resemblance. I believe this is most likely coincidence. So did Yamaha get the idea for V4 from Harley, I doubt it but I cant say for sure. I feel secure in the belief that the engines in our Maxes were not a HD design. How does the Honda V65 fit into this? It looked different and had no scoops, but still a pretty snorting V4, could this be inspired in any way by HDs Nova project? Did Yamaha take the V4 cue from Honda instead or maybe all on their own. I really would love to know. I know the V65 appeared a couple years before the Vmax and a couple years after the Nova project was a thing. This information must be out there somewhere, but I cant find it.

Wow..extremely well written and on target ! It was worth a 2nd read. And you are dead right about Polaris. I bought the new Indian chieftain over the Harley. Way better bike and modern. Very impressed with it.