1st Gen V-Max Fully restored 1986 Vmax

[Fire-medic]

I guess some people don't acknowledge 'tribute' cars. There are plenty of those, for example a late 1960's/early '70's Cutlass S turned into a W-30 442 'Tribute.' A '64 Fairlane 2-dr turned into a Thunderbolt 'Tribute.' The list goes-on.

One of the most successful 'cheaters' was Smokey Yunick's car built for driver Curtis Turner, which he put on the pole at Daytona, in 1967. It was smaller than a stock Chevelle for NASCAR racing. The smaller-than stock body dimensions presented a lesser amount of aerodynamic drag. It subsequently caused the templates to be used to measure cars in competition, to prevent such body modifications.

I agree that if someone is passing-off a 1964 Tempest as a GTO without acknowledging it's more-modest origins, that could be constituted as fraud. However, if the car required a restoration of the body and its added 389 in place of a stock inline six, or a 326 small block V8, it was in-fact restored. It just wasn't restored to how it left the factory.

Question: why wasn't Pontiac sued when it sold the GTO? Did someone actually believe they were getting a Ferrari when they went to the local Pontiac dealer and bought a Pontiac GTO?

Tested: 1964 Pontiac GTO Takes on Ferrari's GTO (caranddriver.com) I got this issue and read it, when it was first published, as I had a subscription, and had been reading Car and Driver since it was named Sports Cars Illustrated. They had some great columnists, writers and editors: David E Davis, Jean Linamood, Warren Weith, Dick Smothers, Brock Yates, Jean Shepherd, Steve Smith, F1 champion James 'The Shunt' Hunt, Smokey Yunick, and many more.

 

[Parminio]

However, if the car required a restoration of the body and its added 389 in place of a stock inline six, or a 326 small block V8, it was in-fact restored. It just wasn't restored to how it left the factory.

That is called refurbished. Since the law apparently doesn't matter in this thread, lets just try basic English:

re·store
/rəˈstôr/

verb
past tense: restored; past participle: restored

repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.


re·fur·bish

/rēˈfərbiSH/

verb
past tense: refurbished; past participle: refurbished

renovate and redecorate (something, especially a building).
"the premises have been completely refurbished in our corporate style"

The motor that never came in the car would prevent it from being legally sold as a restoration. In the same way, chrome scoops, an aftermarket wind screen and other aftermarket parts on a Vmax prevent it from being called "restored". It is in fact "customized" or "refurbished".

You can "choose" to call it whatever you want, but you would be incorrect in doing so if you called something "restored" that was put back in a condition that it never came in.

That is the entire meaning of the word restored. It has been for centuries.

 

[Parminio]

Question: why wasn't Pontiac sued when it sold the GTO? Did someone actually believe they were getting a Ferrari when they went to the local Pontiac dealer and bought a Pontiac GTO?

That has to be about the dumbest statement I've ever seen.

GTO stands for a class of racing car. It has been used by many car makers for decades. Most just use the GT though and drop the "homologated" part.

 

[Fire-medic]

Thank-you for your recognition of my mental acuity.

In recognition of the homologation process, Harley-Davidson homologated the VR-1000 in Poland. it needed to be homologated somewhere to participate in roadracing competition here.

 

[MileHayabusa]

The only thing I want to know is what kind of battery does it have and does it weight within the now apparently legally required weight +/- 13.928 nanograms from OEM and, if not, there are going to be some huge issues and potential lawsuits.

I always like when our very own Cliff Clavin, in his ever present need to be right ALL the time, takes to getting on his soapbox and letting the diatribe commence.

Another thread derailed...thank you, Cliff.

 

[Fire-medic]

Another thread derailed...thank you, Cliff.

 

[desert_max]

I could go on for YEARS. Barrett Jackson are sued all the time for that very thing. They have a long, extended history of fraud and have paid out millions of dollars in settlements over it through the decades.

Did you even bother to read the articles that you linked? Or are you just indiscriminately posting links to random Barrett Jackson articles just to be argumentative? I would be interested to see where any of the articles linked are relevant to this discussion - a discussion that I'm only perpetuating because you sanctimoniously pretend to be in the right all the time.

 

[one2dmax]

https://komonews.com/news/consumer/local-car-dealer-sued-over-classic-car-sold-at-auction
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Med...pany-announces-settlement-of-defamation-suit/
https://www.eastvalleytribune.com/n...cle_cc1082ac-b7ba-5f17-83de-6e265572cecc.html
https://www.motortrend.com/features...llection-cars-at-barrettjackson-auction-2347/
I could go on for YEARS. Barrett Jackson are sued all the time for that very thing. They have a long, extended history of fraud and have paid out millions of dollars in settlements over it through the decades.

The same thing happens in the antique furniture industry as well. People who "refinish" an antique ruin its value. There are rules to what you can and can't do.

You can fabricate a kind for kind set of floor pans for instance if GM / Ford / Whoever doesn't have any left. But what you can't do is put a stipe kit for a GTO Judge on a car that was never a Judge package from the factory and then sell it as a GTO Judge.

You also can't put a motor in a car that wasn't an option in that car and call that a "restored" car.

You can't put new Enkei wheels on it and call it a restored car.

You can't put the hood of a 73 on a 71 and call it a restored car. It has to be kind for kind. It's really just that simple.

But once again this is just factual information that for some reason people that love to just spout out complete falsehoods and pretend facts don't matter at all get completely bent out of shape over when you point it out.

I didn't see where Barrett Jackson lost? Apparently they disclosed the correct status of the cars in these instances. Most people are not excessively anal to worry much about the semantics of restored/reconditioned/rebuilt/refinished in the general context of their usage. This is very similar to buying car parts these days. Do you want new, rebuilt, reconditioned, or remanufactured. Each has a different meaning that most don't know the differences on. They simply chose based on new vs "used" and the price. Whether that is wrong or not is just the way it is for most people.

 

[Fire-medic]

The most recent customer in the car body shop where I have a project is a guy with a '66 GTO. He has two cars he wants done, this is the first. The body is in great condition for the age of the car. It's come to FL from CA. The owner wants it done, and the shop is busting azz on it. When the block was checked for size and year, it came back as a 1972 400 c.i. and the fact it isn't a 1966 block doesn't faze him in the least. He wants it built to run, and he doesn't expect to sell it once it's done. The cost of the work will exceed the restored (oops!) value of the automobile. He just wants this particular car done. It has PS/PB/AC and a TH400 tranny, just like the one I have for my project. He's going to get back a functional automobile with some very desirable factory options, and new or refurbished components throughout. The car will be, in some circles, 'over-restored,' as for instance, the cast iron exhaust manifolds are due for pick-up today, after being ceramic-coated.

I agree with Sean, people are motivated by price in probably most transactions regarding transportation, i.e., "what can I afford?" That, and "will I have a long-lasting repair?" For a small sub-set, originality counts. However, there are many stories of partial components being turned into another complete car/truck, legally, and while it's not what it was from the factory, it's something someone proudly owns, operates, and enjoys. My friend who owns the shop, has a great story about a Shelby Cobra raced (and wrecked) back in the 1960's by his cousin. Parts of the automobile were separated and then two separate cars were built from the pieces, and separately registered.

Anyone read about the Porsche 550 RSK transaxle from James Dean's car he was killed in, being sold for half a million dollars? Without a doubt, that's going to be installed in a recreation of a Porsche 550 RSK or an original, and advertised as containing parts from James Dean's 'death car.' BTW, it was a post WWII Ford sedan which hit Dean's Porsche on its way to a road race, killing him.

Few people are willing to spend the $$$$ to restore a car as it emerged from the factory, decades-ago. Those who are, hire shops who have experts in the process, and the end results will cost the customer dearly. Anyone spending big bucks on a car supposedly 'original,' or in original-as-built condition, will wisely have a qualified expert vet the construction and the provenance, such as it can be determined.




A Ducati exhaust getting a $$$ treatment.


A Chevy gas tank after a 34 year slumber, and not being drained. The hardened sediment was two inches thick on the bottom of the tank. The tank is upside-down, the top of the tank in the pic is the bottom of the tank.

 

[V4max]

This parminio guy is clearly an ******* all I ever see on here is him arguing with someone over the dumbest ****. Why is it you have to argue with everyone about everything? Just say nice bike buddy and move on who cares what word he used we all knew what he meant and your the only one who had to say something stupid. Have you ever been in a fight? If not that's why you act the way you do.

 

[V4max]

Your life must be miserable buddy. All I ever see associated with your name is negative ******** or trying to correct someone on something that doesn't matter. This is a vmax forum of folks helping each other and sharing stories but your always somewhere trying to correct someone. Just shut the f up if your not gonna be a team player. DAMN

 

[TK3333]

Good luck with the new ride, looks clean.

 

[MileHayabusa]

Did you even bother to read the articles that you linked? Or are you just indiscriminately posting links to random Barrett Jackson articles just to be argumentative? I would be interested to see where any of the articles linked are relevant to this discussion - a discussion that I'm only perpetuating because you sanctimoniously pretend to be in the right all the time.

I didn't see where Barrett Jackson lost? Apparently they disclosed the correct status of the cars in these instances.

So you posted a total of four links, two of which were about a pissed-off seller who thought his car should have brought more than it did, one of which was about titling issues for GM vehicles that were sold as 'experimental' or 'development' vehicles that the buyers had a hard time registering, since they were looking to resell them as road legal cars, because of the 'EX' VINs and one article where the car was listed with an incorrect engine.

I don't see that any of those have anything to do with your claims of, and I'm quoting you directly so you can't spin it later, " I could go on for YEARS. Barrett Jackson are sued all the time for that very thing. They have a long, extended history of fraud and have paid out millions of dollars in settlements over it through the decades."

Not one of the claims you referenced was made in regards to a car that was misrepresented as 'restored' vs. 'refurbished'. The closest you could use to substantiate your claim would be the case of the Mustang with the side-oiler 427 but you'd have to stretch to use that one as it's a car with a blatantly obvious non-original engine. Kind of stops your claim dead in its tracks right there.

blo·vi·ate

/ˈblōvēˌāt/

verb INFORMAL • US

talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

But now that you've been called out again, I can't wait to see how you spin this one to prove you're right, once again.

Dazzle us, Cliff...here's your chance.

 

[Rollie]

I like using the term " As Is " when selling a vehicle , and then adding what I know to be a fact when asked about details.

 

[02GF74]

Would this be what is known as a crate motor?

 

[Fire-medic]

Hoo-hah, "crate motor!" Mine is showing a similar posture. Today I removed the last of the frame/body mounts, and used a floor jack to lift the rear of the body off the frame.

I hope the O.P. gets to post a few road pics when the weather allows. When I was living in the NE & Midwest, your hopes of an early spring would be crushed by April snowfalls. My friends in SW Michigan had that in the middle of April last year.

 

[one2dmax]

We are under way of restoring/refurbishing two cars. One being my dads 1967 SS 427 Impala. And the other is a 1969 Roadrunner A12 440 6 Barrel. Neither have the original engines or transmissions (actually the trans for dads impala might be original).

We are doing more of a "resto-mod" on his Impala with a fuel injected 468 with full roller internals in the engine and 4L80E overdrive trans. It's an AC/Powersteering car already so that part of making it more modern is already done. Putting in all new suspension with boxed adjustable rear control arms and oversized sway bars and polgraphite bushings. We have the 4 piston disc brakes up front (original option for the 67) and leaving the drum rear. Posi rear (original) and other stock parts (bucket/console) will make this a fun car all around. Maybe not "restored" in the purest aspect of the dictionary but we won't be asked who "refurbished" our car when it's done. Most people again simply don't get into the semantics of that.

The RR will be done as close as we can to original though we aren't 100% sure what it actually come with for options since the fender tag is missing that had all those noted. We THINK it was an auto trans car with console as the floor pan looks to be that way. But, someone has hacked a hole for a 4 speed and installed the pedals. There is an auto on the steering column in the car with the shift stem removed and yet another shifter on the floor lol. This car has been through modification hell lol. We just want to have it close to what would have been original since that tends to have the most value (though resto mods bring big bucks when done right).

Another very common misuse of words we hear nearly every day and I even have to catch myself and correct even myself. So many people will come up to you and ask what kind of motor do you have in the car. I have to control my urge to say there is nothing electrical about it lol. It's an ENGINE and not a motor lol. But, that is simply what many use interchangeably because that is the slang they heard.

 

[desert_max]

Does that mean we all ride enginecycles?

 

[02GF74]

Does that mean we all ride enginecycles?

Technically speaking yes but nowadays motors are associated with electricity whereas engines with combustion eg. rocket engine, diesel engine, steam engine.

Language evolves and until the vast majority of the English speaking peoples adopt that term, although you may continue to say that here, we are after all are friends.... well most of the time, should you say that elsewhere you are likely to get funny looks.

 

[rreed]

Other than the polished scoops, those details look just like my '86.

Beautiful job!

nice bike!