Hot starting issues

[gleno]

So I've read before that the Max is prone to heat soak issues with the starter. Well, since I live in the pit of hell (Georgia) I've started having that problem the last 2 days.

So, I know there is a way to beef up the wiring, possibly add a relay to help combat this. Though I would post here and see what/if any of you guy's have done to deal with this issue and what seems to work the best.

In my case if I let the bike cool for about 30min, starting is still weak, but she will start. So it's not a majoe issue if I'm stopping to eat somewhere, however, this doesn't work so well if all I want to do is pull over and take a quick piss. :th_stophierPeeingIn

I have read and done all things suggested in the forum to cure the famous hot starting problem and none of the solutions have provided a lasting solution, even though I thought I had found the simple fix a couple of times..

One guy related how he pulled the starter motor apart and cleaned the built up commutator brush dust out of the system with great results and I believe now, after much trial an error, that MOST of the starter motor problems do not relate to charging system failures, battery problems or wiring issues, though on occasion they may restore the starting system to temporary health by restoring correct cranking current to a degraded starting circuit.

This especially true if the primary symptom is weak cranking when the motor is hot.

IMO most of these issues relate to the starter motor itself and are not directly addressed by most owners because repairing the starter, being the most time consuming, more difficult and potentially more expensive fix, is often the least attractive alterative to some of the easier ?cures?.

The starter motor has inherent design weaknesses in the way it achieves its internal ground connection. In 1996, Yamaha introduced the four-brush starter motor to replace the two-brush unit used on the earlier models. While better, it is not a cure and it will develop the same problem over time.

Here is some information from a Dutch Vmax site that shows why the problems occur within the Vmax starter motor, (with English translation and photographs of the faults) with suggestions for a longer lasting ?cure?.

By all means try the simple checks first but the real cure is to service the starter motor.

[FONT=&quot]http://members.chello.nl/c.cornwall/Startmotor/startmotor.htm
[/FONT]

 

[bikedave99]

Re: VMax starter clutch fix

johnpclynch,
Can you describe your symptons which required you to do the starter clutch work? I just picked up a 1988 Max and it seems to have a weak starter, always starts like I have weak battery, just slow and unnerving. Do you think I just need a new starter? Anyone is welcome to comment, and I would appreciate it!

 

[4gasem]

Re: VMax starter clutch fix

johnpclynch,
Can you describe your symptons which required you to do the starter clutch work? I just picked up a 1988 Max and it seems to have a weak starter, always starts like I have weak battery, just slow and unnerving. Do you think I just need a new starter? Anyone is welcome to comment, and I would appreciate it!

Welcome Dave,

I moved your post to a relivent thread... :thumbs up: They will do it hot or cold but hot is WAY worse...

Your problem is VERY common... Take a look.

 

[bikedave99]

Re: VMax starter clutch fix

Welcome Dave,

I moved your post to a relivent thread... :thumbs up: They will do it hot or cold but hot is WAY worse...

Your problem is VERY common... Take a look.

Thanks 4gasem, I hadn't had time to peruse all the threads yet and this is exactly my issue. And as always, there is not a simple answer which works every time! But, it sure gives me a checklist to work off of. Its a good excuse to dig into the electrical of the bike though. I have an older Virago which I really like but have perpetual electrical problems with. If I am just around town cruising I have no problem but if I get up to interstate speeds I will lose spark in one cylinder after a few minutes and then the other in another couple minutes. After it cools down it starts right up. I've replaced both coils and CDI. All that to say, its nice to have the Max now which runs when I want it to!

 

[mjsonar]

HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

Hello all

I almost needed to locate the kick start on the max today -- after a long ride I pulled in to fuel up and she turned over reeeeaaaal slow but did start.

So I think My 1992 has the famous Hot Start problem. After researching the problem on this forum, I have a few questions. first a list of what I have learned

1. Solder the "Crimp"
2. Upgrade the "earth cable to a heavy duty one.
3. vmaxbitz.com has a "Hot starting problem fix kit".
4. The 3 white wires from the stator to the R/R need to be at least clean if not soldered together.
5. Get a R/R from a 2000 or newer bike.
6. Old starters have only 2 brushes newer ones have 4 brushes.

I have already done No. 1 "solder the crimp" my volts at 2500 rpm reads about 13.1 and at 5000 about 13.4.

I plan on doing No. 2 and 3 hopefully this weekend.

1st Question - Am I missing anything?

2nd Question - What year does the starter have 4 brushes? and will it bolt right on my bike with out any modifications?

3rd Question - does the R/R on a 2000 + bike bolt on without any modifications?

Thanks for your help in advanced

Mike W.

 

[richwrench]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

Your charging voltage isn't high enough to keep your battery fully charged - you should be around 14.4 volts at 2500 rpm - many different opinions on the best way to correct this. I personally soldiered a 16 gauge wire directly from the r/r to the battery & cured my '96. Probably a good idea to beef up your ground wire as well. Check the stickys in the electrical section of this site - lots of good info. The V-max has a minimal battery to start with, so if it's not charged to a full 1.280 sg , hot starts are bound to be an issue.

 

[mjsonar]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

Your charging voltage isn't high enough to keep your battery fully charged - you should be around 14.4 volts at 2500 rpm - many different opinions on the best way to correct this. I personally soldiered a 16 gauge wire directly from the r/r to the battery & cured my '96. Probably a good idea to beef up your ground wire as well. Check the stickys in the electrical section of this site - lots of good info. The V-max has a minimal battery to start with, so if it's not charged to a full 1.280 sg , hot starts are bound to be an issue.

Yes I know that my voltage isn't high enough to keep my battery fully charged. I have looked at many of the stickys in the electrical section. that is where I gathered all the info in my orignal post. it looks like I missed the one about soldering a 16 guage wire from the R/R to the Battery.

Question then, - My R/R doesn't have a ground wire coming out of it. it only grounds by bolting it to the frame. I have a wire bolted to where the R/R bolts to the body and it runs up to the frame where the ground wire from the battery is grounded. I hope that makes sence:ummm:
So where do I solder the 16guage wire to the R/R.

another question - In one of the posts in the electrical section someone said if I need to buy a new R/R then to get one from a 2000 or newer. will the newer R/R bolt right up to my bike with no modifications?

What about the starter does anyone know if the 1992 V-max has the starter with 4 brushes or 2 brushes..

I am going to upgrade the ground wire hopefully tomorrow.
and I have already soldered the "Crimp" and cleaned the "3 white wires" from the stater to the R/R. After I upgrade the ground I will take another volt reading and post back. But I really think that I am going to need to buy a new R/R. :bang head:

 

[richwrench]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

I don't know the exact years that starters or r/r's changed. Have you seen this site yet ? http://vmaxoutlaw.com/ Pretty good tech. info here & one of the pages describes yearly changes.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

On the rectifier regulator connection,

Pull the left side cover off and dig out the connector that goes from the rectifier to the battery cable.

Check you voltage there at that connector (don't unplug it while you running the engine, it needs a load.)

That will tell you what really is coming out of the R/R, you can compare that to what you read at the battery and find out where you are dropping volatge, usually across that connector or at the crimp.
most of my losses were at the connector and not at the crimp. You can use a DVM across the connectors etc to look for minor volatge drops and they all add up.....

The extra wire to the battery is to completely bypass the crimp and the double wire connection (two wires in one lug) that is currently on the factory battery positive. Leave the old stuff in and simply parralell it with a new wire straight from the battery to the R/R positive wire.

Specifically, find the positive wire coming out of the R/R and connect to it by butt splicing in to it, leaving the old wiring in place as well, when you do this your butt splice is going to have one wire (the old one) on one side and two wires (the old one and the one you adding) on the other side.

Really the best favor you can do yourself is to cut ALL the plastic plug in connectors completely out of the circuit on both sides of the R/R and butt splice these wires back together and then solder the butt splices. Use non-insulated so they can be soldered and then heat shrinked or taped afterwards.

This one step cured all my charging ills.
Do the same on the Negative wire, if you have one on your R/R, if not run a new ground wire from your R/R mounting bolt point straigh to the battery negative using a ring lug terminal, making sure that it's got a good connection to the frame and the body of the R/R.

Run that new negative straight to the battery

Use a larger wire #6 or #4 to run from the battery negative down to the engine bolt by the oil fill hole and also to the engine, usually by the oil fill spot where the ground you already have is located. This is the wire that is important to the ground path to your starter and since it carries the actual starter current it needs to be at least as big as the positive wire going to the starter from the start solenoid.

In essence, the wiring from the generator to the R/R, and from R/R to the battery is your charging part of the equation,

The wiring from your start soleniod to the starter, and from your battery to the engine bolt by the oil fill hole, is the starting part of this equation.

That battery negative has to get the the starter somehow and to do it it goes from the battery, down to the bolt by the oil fill hole, and then thru the engine case to the starter. There is no direct negative the the starter as it uses the engine case as a path.

By parralelling the original wire with a new one or replacing it with a bigger one you can improve the hot start issue perhaps.

The newer starters are definitely better but I don't know what years they started with them.

They are interchangable.

 

[jfeagins]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

If you really want that starter to crank while hot, you probably need to pay more attention to the STARTER. There are links here somewhere on the forum where somesone shows the inside of the starter and he talks about putting a ground wire from the starter brush plate over to the starter casing.

I followed his lead regarding the slight corrosion inside the starter between the brush plate and the casing, but I modified the plate locator tabs so that they come into greater contact with the casing when you bolt the starter back together. In other words, I bent the tabs upward slightly. I also scraped all the parts clean before reassembly.

This technique ended all my hot-start issues......pronto. And, yes, my Max suffers all the slightly lower voltage values coming from the R/R etc... I didn't modify anything there except I have cleaned the connection to the bike where the R/R bolts on. But after the starter mod, my bike cranks like a champ whether or not it starts immediately at the gas station.

At any rate, the starter mod can't hurt. All you are out is a couple hours time and some antifreeze.

:biglaugh:

 

[snowprophet1]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

My 2000 wouldn't turn over fast enough to start when I first got it when it was warm. Battery was probably a little tired also. I must have the better version of the starter though, because now I have the 300cca (goldwing) battery in it, and my old '89 max never started like this even when cold. I am so glad I got this bigger battery. Starts awesome hot or cold.unk:

 

[mjsonar]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

Ok first let me say thank you to all that responded and for all the good info.

I cleaned all the connections from the R/R the 3 white wires and the red positive wire.
The ground cable from the battery to the engine (by the oil fill) is 8 guage
I have a wire from the R/R where it bolts to the Frame of the bike to the Battery Negative post.

Now at idle when I check the volts at the R/R it is 14.5 give or take
at the battery it is 14.0 give or take
and at 2500 rpm it is 14.4 give or take

And no hot start problem any more :banana:

I did learn from this site that the starter got changed to the 4 pole in 1990

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike W

 

[Hercules]

Slow starting Max

What is the cure for a slow starting or cranking Vmax when its hot???? And I don't mean stolen!!!

 

[shawn kloker]

Herc,You got to let it cool down! LOL!

He just covered all of the issues in the last post.

 

[rsbiggart]

i need help, i have a 1986 vmax and this is really getting on my nerves. i've replaced the battery, did the solder thing and replaced the rectifier with an 2004 v max. still hasn't taken care of my problem. also when the bike gets hot it runs like crap. then when it stalls it won't restart. please help.

 

[maleko89]

What is the voltage at the battery with the bike idling? Did you follow the charging fault finding diagram? http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=994

If the battery isn't getting charges your ignition and the rest of your electrics work like crap.

 

[4gasem]

i need help, i have a 1986 vmax and this is really getting on my nerves. i've replaced the battery, did the solder thing and replaced the rectifier with an 2004 v max. still hasn't taken care of my problem. also when the bike gets hot it runs like crap. then when it stalls it won't restart. please help.

Also think about replacing the two brush starter with the newer style 4 brush starter.

 

[newells9]

Re: HELP --- Where is the kick start? - Hot start Question

Ok first let me say thank you to all that responded and for all the good info.

I cleaned all the connections from the R/R the 3 white wires and the red positive wire.
The ground cable from the battery to the engine (by the oil fill) is 8 guage
I have a wire from the R/R where it bolts to the Frame of the bike to the Battery Negative post.

Now at idle when I check the volts at the R/R it is 14.5 give or take
at the battery it is 14.0 give or take
and at 2500 rpm it is 14.4 give or take

And no hot start problem any more
I did learn from this site that the starter got changed to the 4 pole in 1990

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike W

HI there , Seems like you have totally worked the cause of the slow start... which is meticulas general maintainance and a possible starter upgrade.
I do have a related question though ? I ride an 89' vmax. starts every time but makes me nervous. kicks over slow on cold and hot starts & pulls down to 8 volts if a second attempt is required. 13.9v @ 1000rpm, 13.6v @ 1500rpm, 13.2v @ 2000rpm. battery load tests well except when the starter drags it down in a 2nd attempt to start scenario. THESE READINGS CONCERN ME AS I THOUGHT THEY SHOULD BE INCREASING AS THE RPM INCREASED. Thinking of first cleaning the starter components & replace brushes . If that does not work then battery with more cca, then 4 brush starter.
Am I on the right track ?

 

[Fire-medic]

I'm gonna suggest anyone who does the wiring fixes, save your $ until you can buy a 12-cell lithium-ion battery which will give you nearly twice the stock rating cold-cranking-amps, and one-third more c.c.a. than a Gold Wing battery conversion!

Of course, your wiring has to be in top condition, and the later style regulator/rectifier (commonly-sourced from other bikes) will charge your battery well, and be less-prone to overheating and failure. The newer starter also helps according to those who have switched. So, there you have it. Collectively, these should minimize any issues your hot-start trouble-prone bike may have previously presented you.


Beware-if you don't make your charging/starting system fixes, you may end-up as this unfortunate FL boater did, recently discovered by fisherman when they found his boat sunk on the ocean floor! When he was reported missing the weeping bride had reported he had battery and charging problems for the weeks prior to his disappearance in 2009, and hadn't returned home. An exhaustive search failed to turn-up his boat. This week, fishermen who had tangled tackle on the submerged boat made the grisly discovery. :confused2:

 

[RaWarrior]

F-M needs an some sort of WTF award for all these random ass pictures he sticks up here.