moisture= no spark, any ideas?

[85 MAX-fan]

I wondered about your location too. Unfortunately I am northern Illinois, and it is a LONG state. that combined with my work schedule make it unlikely that I could meet up with you right now.
Don't give up on it. I have seen many supposedly ultra reliable machines come down with gremlins like you describe. Get your digital camera out and as you disassemble portions of the bike to go over the connections take pictures so that you can reference them in case you forget how to put things back together.
Lastly, do the basic checks when it is not starting in the morning. Pull plugs and check for spark! if you see nothing, you have a building point to trouble shoot. If it is an extremely weak spark same thing.
The previous comment on the TCI unit being the culprit is one I have read of previously. It is this type of stuff most shops will be ZERO help with. It just takes time to sort through with the patience to go detail by detail. This forum rules with the info shared here.
Pull the bike in the living room (it should be there anyway), and start the shake down.

 

[dj52l]

It did the same thing this morning and it was pretty dry air. Would not fire at 6:30...I'm on vacation and wanted an early morning ride to breakfast with some friends. then, an hour later, started first crank.
I have checked when it doesn't start, and there is absolutely no fire at all at plug.
rode 70 miles this afternoon without a miss one.
The more I think of it and look the photos over of the COPS install, I think I could do it if I had a nice lighted concrete floor to find all the parts I drop. Or some help of someone with better fingers and patience ,,,,it sounds like a good mod. I may tackle it when it cools off.....or trade a mechanic buddy something for him to do it for me. Most things like this do not turn out well for me by myself. Eyesight, memory and fingers affected by age and arthritis.

 

[m-cman]

You might check the modified sidestand switch for connection problems.

I'm thinking the side stand switch connection (if bad) wouldn't allow any cranking to happen.

I was thinking more of an intermittent connection problem than the switch being defective. Actually any of the switches that can cause the bike to not start should be carefully cleaned and the connections checked. Just my .02 cents...

 

[Rhoy Carter]

The sidestand relay can cause some really weird problems. The relay is located left front under the TCI box, remove it and see what happens.

 

[85 MAX-fan]

It did the same thing this morning and it was pretty dry air. Would not fire at 6:30...I'm on vacation and wanted an early morning ride to breakfast with some friends. then, an hour later, started first crank.
I have checked when it doesn't start, and there is absolutely no fire at all at plug.
rode 70 miles this afternoon without a miss one.
The more I think of it and look the photos over of the COPS install, I think I could do it if I had a nice lighted concrete floor to find all the parts I drop. Or some help of someone with better fingers and patience ,,,,it sounds like a good mod. I may tackle it when it cools off.....or trade a mechanic buddy something for him to do it for me. Most things like this do not turn out well for me by myself. Eyesight, memory and fingers affected by age and arthritis.

I understand the inclination to go to the COP mod, and it could help. HOWEVER, if there is no spark on any of the four cylinders it could be something up stream of the coils!
If you had unregulated voltage running though the system you could have cooked a connector or component,.
You can shotgun replacement parts and get lucky, or it could get real expensive to fix a fried conection.
My 85 (not Skyshot) melted the connector between the stator and the R/R last year. I got lucky and caught it the first ride of the year cause the head light looked dim. I already had the upgraded R/R to install, so no big problem, and its still kicking a year after, BUT could have drove me nuts had I not done the basic trouble shoot route.
FWIW

 

[dj52l]

Thinking over all the good advice from my new friends here, and reading a lot of other threads, I'm thinking that when the weather gets a little cooler than 100 degrees with 99% humidity, I'm going to start dismantling and get to the CDI to check out and reseal connections, and work my way back through every connections. Lord knows, I may never get it back together right. I have talked to two Yamaha techs about the COPS installation, and neither had ever heard of it, but said it made sense and shouldn't be too difficult..but both shops are backed up for a month. I didn't see any good sets on e-bay, but I'm going to keep watching.
I am just a little reluctant to go non stock because of resale or ever getting a yamaha tech to touch it down the road.
I know the plug ends of my wires look like they have age, I've cleaned and checked spark..either good or none, and will be replaced when I get to the hidden front coils, with new or COPS, but I just can't see that they are the actual problem right now, as I can't see any spark jump at all anywhere when it won't fire. I still keep thinking CDI box or connection...something at the beginning of the chain. All of the connections I have been into have been in good condition as the bike has apparently always been stored inside.
By the way, same thing yesterday and today, no start early in the morning...too hot to ride in afternoon when it does start....crappy for my 2 week vacation.

 

[dj52l]

Yesterday morning, no start, so I started under the seat and at the spark plugs and started checking, cleaning every wire connection I could find. I got as far as the relays under the left scoop before it got hot and I needed to do other stuff. Every connection and plug looked very clean and dry and fit well. I doped each with a little di-electric spray anyway. She still had no spark at all at 4 PM. When I returned home at 10:30 PM, she fired on the first crank.
This morning, the same as the last 10 mornings, like someone had shut off a switch electrically. At 1 PM, she fired on first crank.
Tomorrow morning, I start week 2 of vacation by removing the air box and trying to get to the CDI box and area to inspect it and the connections...I don't really know what I'm looking for unless something obvious shows up.
Am I correct that if I don't see anything, it won't hurt it open it up and inspect?
What year CDI boxes off Ebay will work in my '88?
I keep thinking this is acting like a bad chassis ground in a John Deere mower, tractor, or combine. ( I work at a JD dealership, but not as a mechanic, I'm a service clerk- warranty writer) I know a ground can make weird things happen. Does anyone know where the ground for the CDI box or main electrical system is at? We had a couple of 450 HP tractors shut down because the factory used a bolt 10mm too long at the main cab ground, and it wouldn't tighten enough.
Thanks for any suggestions, keep em coming.

 

[dj52l]

One more stupid question...I have been reading all these other threads on electrical issues like mine and the great COPS install photos...and I keep seeing the terms CDI and TCI pop up interchangeably it seems. Straighten me out here...Isn't the main brain box I'm going after next the one that lays flat under the air box , called the CDI? Doesn't it pretty much control everything else on the bike?
What is the smaller vertical black box under the left scoop called? And what does it do? I thought it was the ignition or ignitor box?? In Deere world, they go bad and stay bad...my problem is on or off, no middle ground to it. ??
Would a CDI that has been "fried" back when my regulator went bad last Fall and overcharged, be able to run great when it does start?
On Deere mowers, we have a "time delay module" that goes down sometimes for periods...is there anything like that on the Vmax? (Don't really know what they do, I just hand them to the techs when the smart guys ask for 'em, and charge them out!)
This problem is going to kill me yet!
Also, when I find a great thread, how do I "mark" it so it can be easily found again.

 

[jfeagins]

I believe the black box under the left scoop is the vboost controller module.

I think you should be able to find a "*Favorites" button in the upper, left corner of your Windows screen. If so, just click on it while you are viewing the thread in which you wish to return later, and choose the "add to favorites" option. Then next time you are online, you can go to your Favorites folder and re-select that screen to return to.

I still think you're not getting enough voltage to operate the coils when the temps are cooler AND your starter is spinning. Warmer engines/starters require slightly less Cold Cranking Amperage and thus: you get enough juice in the warmer PM to fire it up. You may get lucky and find the bad connection(s) at the CDI box.

When mine did exactly as you describe, my fix was a combo of connection improvements beginning at the the R/R, adding a ground wire to it, AND adding the bigger battery mod. I didn't have to mess with my CDI (fortunately), and have had no starting issues since. I had marginally OK voltages, both at idle and during slight revving BEFORE I did the tweeks and batt mod, but would suffer the off/on starting issues. AFTER the mods and tweeks, I got about a whopping 1/2 volt better charging at the battery during idle, but have never had the starting issues since. For me, it seems the 1/2 volt and/or bigger CCA battery made the difference. (knock on wood)

 

[dj52l]

I checked the voltage yesterday morning and both shut-off, at idle, and at 2500 rpm were all right on spec. Because someone had mentioned it before, I plugged in the 2 amp tender, just to see if the boost would make a difference, and it didn't. The headlights don't even dim at idle like bikes I've had before.
This morning, wouldn't start, so I got my tool box out and set up to remove the air box. After about 40 minutes trying to get into a position I could see through my blasted tri-focals , to loosen the clamps to the carbs, and loosened the coolant hose and cap on the right side. I was already sweatin' to the oldies and had salt water running into my eyes. It is just too hot to work on a motorcycle today...I know, I'm a wimp. But at least I can ride this evening after dark as I have been doing and I know I'm going to screw something up good. and of course my vacation comes at the hottest 2 weeks of the year.
I just can't figure out why it won't start early mornings, but after 10 Am, it will start every time. Even if it is raining in the evening. What I could see with a flashlight under the air box , all looked clean, and dry.
I think I'm going to take it to the Yamaha dealership next week and let them start dismantling and testing each component until the problem is found. I know the owner well enough, he shouldn't screw me too bad....I just can't figure this one out and I'm not capable of going much further.
thanks,.

 

[jfeagins]

Is there any way you can jumper a second battery over to the Vmax tomorrow MORNING when it won't start, just to test whether or not the additional CCA's would help overcome the problem and allow the bike to go ahead and start?

I'm really curious on this one. Just hate to see a stealership start throwing parts at it.

 

[dj52l]

I thought I might hook up my regular charger and hit it with that in the morning to see if it makes a difference. It also has a start feature that throws a heavier charge to it.
This is driving me nuts too...I'm spending most of my vacation thinking and looking on internet and reading tech manuals and magazine articles trying to figure it out. I could see a bad connection being a cause if the spark wasn't so completely on or off, and it didn't do the very same thing each morning, and then work after a couple of hours, without touching anything except turn the key on.
And I would think some other problem, even a miss or rough idle would show up, or a headlight dimming, or SOMETHING! And it starts the rest of the day. (Guess I could leave it run tonight and see when it dies!) I'm used to working with my Deere tech co-workers in tracking down problems, and every little symptom I enter into a data base where Deere engineers study the problem and nearly always come up with a cause, but here, there is one symptom...no spark, and so far, no other symptom to correlate it to. Then suddenly, we have spark????

 

[dj52l]

Halleluia! The Vera-Max is back to her old self. Last evening, was just going over wiring and connections once again, and when I pulled the curled up harness & plug from the new regulator I installed last Fall, from just in front of the gas tank, in behind the frame, I felt water hit my other hand. I had looked at the plug before, but didn't pull the harness all the way out until now. When I installed the new regulator, rather than remove the rear wheel or drive shaft to get to the old one, I had mounted the new one to the frame tube where it could get air and I could keep an eye on it in case it started getting too hot like the old one had. Installed seperate ground wire.
The wiring harness had about 1 1/2 foot piece of sheathing loosely around the wires. That sheath was full of water as the harness looped low in the middle. So, I don't understand how, except some of you guys have apparently seen this before, the water on the wires must have cut the strength of electricity when starting, and somehow cut the spark off.. Even though the battery and charging system tested fine as far as output. But I didn't check the voltage at the instant of cranking, and I'm not sure what I would have been looking for.
I still don't know why it would run later in the day???? And why the water hadn't evaporated in the 2 weeks of 95 degree days, but there was a couple of teaspoons at least in there.
I drained and blew the sheath out, sprayed some di-electric spray in it that is supposed to dissapate water, clamped both ends tight shut with small zip-ties and put thick di-electric grease in the ends to seal and in the connector to seal...I could see where one wire had dis-colored the cover from heat at the plug, so I fixed it and wrapped plug and everything to the sheathing with electrical tape..I don't think water will be getting in there any more.
This morning, she started on first crank and ran great for a country blacktop ride. In fact, she seemed to be a little more of a handful than usual when the boost kicked in...I thought she was coming up a couple of times.
Thanks for all you guy's help and suggestions! I'm new to this site and I have learned a lot already....Hope to meet some of you in person some day.
Thanks again! Oh, and all thoughts of selling Vera have gone away! I can't find anything I'd rather have than this 22 year old bike.

 

[dj52l]

Well, that was short-lived. Went out this hot humid morning and no start. I give up!
Think I'll go bike shopping today...been just a great 2 week vacation, not!

 

[jfeagins]

Did you put a jumper battery on it when it failed to fire this morning? My money is on the CDI box needing more amps - and the starter cranking is taking too much away while it's spinning.

The clue on mine, was when (if ever) it did fire, it would do it ONLY at the exact moment I let off the starter button. It would NEVER fire while I actually had the button depressed and the starter was cranking. Let up on that button, motor still spinning for a heartbeat or so, and viola - it'd fire. Wouldn't always catch with that one fire, but it was the clue I needed to realize I had an issue that was robbing the CDI box of enough power to operate properly.

For me, the bigger battery (more cold CCA's) eliminated the problem altogether. I suspect my CDI is somewhat less than perfect due to age, but not a problem as long as I give it enough voltage/amps to operate regardless of the starter taking lots of juice.

For that matter, there may be some resistance somewhere else in the starter relay, or the starter button itself - as that button kills power to things like headlamps, etc while cranking (i think).


Maybe Sean has a loner CDI you could use to test out and see if that would work. A bigger 16 series battery mod isn't difficult to do.

Don't give up now, we're just getting started. I know how you feel. I was so frustrated with my Max, I actually advertised it for sale, interviewed with a potential buyer (3 times) and was a mere $100.00 difference in agreement on the sales' price when I backed out and decided to keep it. My only grief now is the shiite alcohol stuff MO forces gas station owners to sell.

 

[dj52l]

Tomorrow morning, if it doesn't fire, I'll try the boost with charger idea. I was too mad this morning after thinking I had it fixed...then an hour later, it fired. I've seen some weird battery stuff at Deere dealership job that couldn't be explained either. I went back after an hour and she fired up and I took a 60 mile ride with several starts and no problems. It usually fires on the first crank or so, when it does, but I'll watch for your idea on the start button.
I was thinking how I started riding to work this spring when it hit 35 degrees and had to wipe frost off my face shield, but it won't start at 80 degrees!
What battery or CCA rating would you recommend? Last fall, I just went to Car parts store and told them I wanted the strongest battery with the right part #...t had always started so easy. In fact the battery in it was still starting, but had boiled dry with the bad regulator, and I didn't want to chance it going bad down the road. I don't mess with these type of batteries at Deere.....more of the 100 lb, 1000 CCA type for tractors and combines. The smallest we handle is the U1 for some mowers.
Thanks, I'm listening to every one of you who are helping.

 

[Noxx72]

I had a little trouble following this thread, mostly because I haven't had my coffee yet, so if my understanding of the problem is off, correct me please.

What I'm getting here is that under certain, and sometimes varying conditions your Max will spin but not fire. On the fundamentals of combustion you've got fuel and air covered, which leaves no, or inadequate spark.

Because it never runs poorly when it does run, I would, I would discard your CDI as a suspect, although I am concerned about the mods by the previous owner. 9 times out of 10 when someone has put their booger hooks in an electrical harness, there's something that needs to be redone properly. Still, I consider this a low probability suspect, as the bike doesn't cut out when your riding, or misfire.

Damaged coils seem a VERY likely cause for this failure. After all the Max has priors when it comes to cracking coils, and a cracked coil, especially exposed to moisture isn't going to give you the voltage buck requierd. If the coils aren't doing their thing (primary transformer) you're not pushing any voltage to the plugs (secondary transformer) and you're not gonna fire. However under consideration, you're not getting a rough start, a misfire, etc.....just wont start. So lets discard this as well. (Although I do recommend the COP mod to everyone)

Plug wires and their connections also seem an easy target. I am discarding them for the same reasons described above.

No, I'd bet a little bit of green money that voltage drop is your culprit here. You mentioned that the bike started fine previously when it was cold, now you have problems in the summer, thats one. The Max is notoriously underpowered electrically, that's two, and the lead to the starter motor is often the first thing to take a dump, from being overheated all the time, that's three.

Your starter may be weak and eating current, but I'll bet if you put the larger battery in and replace your starter wiring with newer and heavier, you'll be set. Good luck.

 

[85 MAX-fan]

Well, that was short-lived. Went out this hot humid morning and no start. I give up!
Think I'll go bike shopping today...been just a great 2 week vacation, not!

Ya, my initial thought was that the water you found was not the culprit. Remember this though, the way you felt when you thought it was fixed I am willing to bet was a tremendous rush. Owning any bike will likely have these moments. You are methodically trouble shooting the issue and verifying things like connectors are good to go, and this will insure a fully sound machine when you are done.
Anybody else feel free to comment here, but I am wondering if the unregulated voltage from the bad R/R has damaged a component causing this issue.
Try the suggestion to jump it. When you are unsuccessful at starting it do you throw a battery charger on it, or do you just try it again later?
If you have inspected all of the connectors I would begin testing components. I am suspecting the CDI if all the wiring /connections are cool.
Stay with it, and when its done you will feel a real connection to that bike!:thumbs up:

 

[jfeagins]

Tomorrow, if/when it won't fire right away. Try very short bursts of the starter button, rather than just allowing the starter to continue spinning without starting the bike. Maybe even wiggle the starter button. (have you taken it apart to inspect?) See if it doesn't want to fire upon button release. By doing that, you will get more attempts out of the battery before it drains down.


Here's the link to the battery box mod required to fit a 16 series battery in place of the smaller Vmax sized battery.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=113

Sean has provided awesome pics beginning the 5th post down.


I'll say again, I did this battery box mod and battery upgrade AFTER I went through the R/R connectors, soldered all the spade ends accordingly, cleaned contacts, disassembled, cleaned R/R mounting bolts, and added a ground wire directly to the R/R, etc..... which added about 1/2 volt charging capacity @ idle. That was to ensure my Max would adequately charge any new battery I installed.

I would also note I already had a newer, fully charged OEM sized battery in my Max, but still had the starting problems. If allowed to loose enough charge, I suspect any battery would crank my Max, while robbing amperage from the CDI, and thus still cause me grief. Knock on wood - I fixed my electrical B.S. for good by doing the box mod. CDI's can be costlier than the bigger battery.


One other thing, I was wondering what type charger you would normally use on a daily basis when it doesn't start and before you come back home in the PM and it does start?

If it doesn't have "float" settings, you can boil the fluid out of a new battery really, really fast. Much faster than you'd imagine. Your battery may already be dangerously low on water IF you've been using a large charger w/o float settings.

(yeah, I know I'm windy, but we gotta git this Vmax back up to 100%. I sure hope this intel leads to a good outcome. I hate it when I don't know what I'm talking about, and that happens more and more, the older I get.) :biglaugh:

 

[Rhoy Carter]

I have not seen where the pick up coils have been tested when the bike is not starting, there could very well be a bad wire there too