moisture= no spark, any ideas?

[dj52l]

I really haven't needed to charge the battery, but I tried plugging in the 2 amp tender, and today, I hooked up my regular industrial strength charger with a 50 AMP start-boost, just to see if the theory that the battery CCA wasn't up to spec to fire the coils...but neither helped. A few days ago, I left the 2 Amp tender hooked up over night just to see if the added boost would help the next morning...it didn't. I've never run the battery down, because I don't crank very long. The bike always either fires on the first crank practically, or it doesn't fire at all, so I seem to be wasting time cranking very long at all. Every time I test the battery, it seems a strong 13.0 - 13.5 shut off, and goes to 14.0 -14.3 at about 3000 rpm.
When it does not try to fire the first , second short cranking, I have been very careful to not touch anything but the key and starter switch when I come back an hour or two later, and it fires right off. (In case there is some loose wire causing problem) Only in the very cold winter, do I ever need to choke. This is what makes me crazy trying to figure out what is shutting the coils completely off?? There is never a trying to fire at any sparkplug, just completely dead at all 4. The starter sounds good and strong when cranking and when running, I have no headlight dimming at idle like a weak battery. In fact, this battery has never been run down to where it wouldn't crank, as I don't like to do that to a battery.
On lawnmowers, I see more coils fail in the hottest weather. But with this bike, it won't start at the coolest part of day, but runs great in the very hottest 95+ part of the day with nary a miss in the afternoons, the last 2 weeks.
I have not checked voltage at the pickup coils, as I will have to read up on how to do that.
Guess I'll see what tomorrow morning brings.

 

[jfeagins]

If the booster jump didn't do the trick, I'm completely stumped. It MUST be a broken wire or bad connection somewhere.

Check starter button?

You might have to get a block heater and keep that sumbeech hot n ready 24/7.

 

[dj52l]

Ok, ready for the latest?? I finally decided maybe some of you were right, the Auto Zone battery, though staying charged up and spinning the starter like crazy, was maybe not putting out the amps needed to make the CDI fire the spark plugs. I read up on the Odyssey Extreme battery, that several recommended for the Vmax, so I go to Evansville, Indiana on a battery hunt. I drive 140 miles and finally find a little store with one in stock..I had given up and was heading home, when I drove by a battery shop I had never seen and was not listed on my GPS, and went back and gave $147.00 for it.
I installed in in the Vmax and took a little ride this evening when it cooled off. After about 35 miles, the bike starts running rough and so I run about 3 stop signs because it ain't gonna idle, and just make it home and the battery is as dead as George Washington. I wish I had full coverage on this bike , because I feel an accident is going to happen to it.
I cannot see anything left unplugged from moving the coils out of the way, so i'm charging her up overnight and will inspect in the light of day and check the R/R that I replaced last Fall and has been charging fine with the battery I removed.
( Now, I'm going to go practice playing taps)

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

I can't comment on your existing starting problem, but I think new batteries need to be fully charged before use.

 

[dj52l]

Normally , yes, But this is one of those gell batteries that are full charged according to the instructions, and I tested it just for kicks and it was at 12.85, and the instructions say if at 12.65, do not charge.
I must have either left something unplugged or it killed the regulator ....I'll have to test it after charging battery.

 

[dj52l]

I just went out to the bike after it being on my 15 Amp automatic charger for an hour, and it was still charging at close to 15 amps. I unhooked charger, and checked voltage at 12.60. Then I started up and checked at 2500 RPM and it would go up to 13.85..so it is charging now. All I did after I got home was recheck the two plugs I new I had unplugged when I moved the coils out of the way. One was a 2 wire yellow plug and one was a single bullet plug, to the right of the coils. I don't know what they do?? if there was one not plugged good, it may have been the bullet plug.
Guess I'll see tomorrow???

 

[dj52l]

The bike started fine after 10 PM, charging when running at 14.0 at 3000 rpm. I left the trickle charger on over night. This morning is cooler with dew, Bike was sitting outside where I was working on last night. I checked the battery and it registered 17.0 amps! I didn't know a 12 volt battery would go that high???
Anyway, hit the starter button ...good spin, ...no start!

 

[jfeagins]

I've just got to ask: Did you do anything recently, I mean anything, to piss HIM off?

I wonder if you have a bad wire on a pickup coil and it is temp sensitive?

Someone else will have to chime in on how to test the signal from the pickups.

The old XS1100's had sensor wires coming off a fracking moving timing advance plate that would become broken on the inside (and absolutely not visible from the outside of wire jacket) and the bike would drop two cylinders. ONLY WHEN COLD.

Cooler temps - wire will contract. The copper will separate at the break, and cracks will show up on a circuit board. Warmer temps - wire will expand. Broken wires will literally grow back together inside the plastic outer jacket and wires will expand inside a cracked solder joint to go ahead and make a better connection.

You may end up throwing more parts at it as a process of elimination.

Sean Morely, and others on this forum, can hook you up with the major components for far less than any stealership would charge if you go that route.

 

[maxcruiser]

I'll be honest, i didn't read this whole thread, but i would say two possible problem areas to look at, the sidestand switch splice bypass and the diode assembly for sidestand safety device (item# 32 in diagram) - I have heard of this diode becoming sensitive to moisture. Replace it with a known good one and see if problem is fixed (plug n play set up)

http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/2/Yamaha.aspx

Mike

 

[dj52l]

I haven't actually figured out how the previous owner bypassed the sidestand switch. It has not worked since I had it, doesn't kill it when put in to gear with it down. I laid down and looked at the switch and wiring apparently goes back along the frame and I never could find where it goes into the rest of the harness. I have a small oil leak..just for the Harley crowd, so I cleaned the switch up and even tried to get the switch to shut the ignition down by getting it wet with water. But once it has started for the day, I can't get any moisture down low to cause a problem.
I will try switching the stand relay though and see.
To back up and bring everyone back up to date, since I have had it a little less than a year, it has been slow to fire after washing, although I can wash the lower part of engine and stand area, it it not affect starting. Previous owner said 20 minutes after washing with seat off and it would go. It has gotten worse if rinsed up high , as much as 3 or 4 days if humid.
For the last 3 weeks, it will not fire early in the morning , not matter what the weather, until mid morning at least, and it has been hot and humid. After starting once, it is good for the rest of the day and evening.
When I say won't start, I mean the starter spins good, but absolutely no fire at any of the plugs at all. Then after mid-day, even being careful not to touch or move anything but the key, it fires as soon as it spins. It is like the power to the coils is totally shut off or on fine.
When it runs, there are no misses, rough idling or any other signs of ignition problem. Boosting the battery, even if it didn't appear to need it, didn't help...I even installed the odyssey PC680 yesterday...as above, started fine at 10 PM, no fire at 7 AM, until 9 AM.
I has inspected plugs and wires under the seat, and under the left side scoop, and find nothing to indicate problem.. I just am not competent to go under the airbox, I know I'll never get it back together, so I guess I will turn that over to someone else...I have a couple of people I am going to talk to that have been recommended and won't charge Dealer rate.
I am messing with it the rest of the weekend , then I'm back to work .
I just can't see it being the CDI box with it so on/off every day the same.
I can see it being a temp related wire break somewhere or corrosion I haven't found, or a ground problem. As stated , it started every morning when I started riding to work this Spring at 40 degrees.
Am I missing something with a fuel pump relay?? Temp related now? Is there one? It doesn't flood when it has no fire???

 

[dj52l]

Yesterday, the bike started probably 20 times on the first spin from noon until 10 pm and never missed a start. This morning, at 7 AM, inside garage, low humidity, but 80 degrees, no fire.
At 11:30 AM, getting 90 degrees, Still no fire.
In the meantime, I've gone through every plug and connection under the seat and behind the side cover, all look good. I did find where the previous owner had bypassed the sidestand switch, a couple of inches south of the plug, and it looked good, but I re-did it and the doped the plug.
On E-bay, I purchased a pair of used relays that go under the left scoop..one is supposed to be the sidestand relay , to try in case they are the problem.
I am watching for a used CDI box on ebay for my '88...but has anyone else seen one of them come and go like clockwork ? won't start from 7 AM to noon everyday, then runs fine the rest of the day?

 

[Bill Seward]

Sleep in a bit longer in the morning. :rofl_200:

Seriously, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard of any bike doing.

 

[dj52l]

Yeah, It finally started about 2 PM today, It is about 100 degrees with 95% humidity this evening, 10 PM..too hot to even think about riding with a helmet on, which I always do...and it starts fine.
It has not started before 9 or 10 Am for the last 21 days in a row, but has started later and ran fine the rest of the day???
I go to sleep thinking about what I could do to fix, and I wake up early thinking about it, and since it has been hot, I've wanted to ride early while on my vacation. nadda once!

 

[85 MAX-fan]

Yeah, It finally started about 2 PM today, It is about 100 degrees with 95% humidity this evening, 10 PM..too hot to even think about riding with a helmet on, which I always do...and it starts fine.
It has not started before 9 or 10 Am for the last 21 days in a row, but has started later and ran fine the rest of the day???
I go to sleep thinking about what I could do to fix, and I wake up early thinking about it, and since it has been hot, I've wanted to ride early while on my vacation. nadda once!

OK,
Have you tried setting your clocks ahead 7 hours??? Just kidding.
It seems as though this problem has nothing to do with humidity/ water exposure when I re-read all of your posts. Unless I have forgotten something, this problem is pointing to something from the path the juice follows from the battery/regulator to the plugs. If all plugs have no spark I would tend to think that eliminates to coils, though you should test them. I am still thinking upstream of the coils. Test the CDI.
Have you got a manual to help you test?:confused2:

 

[dj52l]

I am right now in a hold pattern, as I am back at work. I'm thinking it has got to be upstream like you said...I have a used sidestand relay coming from e-bay and also the instructions on testing the relay on it, when I catch a morning with time before work, when it doesn't start. I didn't have time this morning. I just got home, and of course, it fired right up.
It is still very hot here, but when it cools off later this week, my next step is to remove the airbox and have at the front wiring , connectors, and the dreaded black box.
By the way, can I use a CDI from any vmax up to 2003 is it? If I see one on ebay for $150.00 or less, I may pull the trigger and get it so I'll have it anyway.
I have access to a tech manual I downloaded and I see you experts have put a lot of good info on here for testing. It just scares me to pull that airbox off for fear of not being able to get it back on correctly or dropping something down a carb throat or something. I have a bad history of making things worse! But I do know it is going to have to be cooler than it is now to start on that.
I start looking at new bikes in the mornings when it won't run, but then in the evening, when I ride, I can't think of giving the Vera-Max up!
I'll post when I get to the next step.
Thanks!

 

[85 MAX-fan]

I am right now in a hold pattern, as I am back at work. I'm thinking it has got to be upstream like you said...I have a used sidestand relay coming from e-bay and also the instructions on testing the relay on it, when I catch a morning with time before work, when it doesn't start. I didn't have time this morning. I just got home, and of course, it fired right up.
It is still very hot here, but when it cools off later this week, my next step is to remove the airbox and have at the front wiring , connectors, and the dreaded black box.
By the way, can I use a CDI from any vmax up to 2003 is it? If I see one on ebay for $150.00 or less, I may pull the trigger and get it so I'll have it anyway.
I have access to a tech manual I downloaded and I see you experts have put a lot of good info on here for testing. It just scares me to pull that airbox off for fear of not being able to get it back on correctly or dropping something down a carb throat or something. I have a bad history of making things worse! But I do know it is going to have to be cooler than it is now to start on that.
I start looking at new bikes in the mornings when it won't run, but then in the evening, when I ride, I can't think of giving the Vera-Max up!
I'll post when I get to the next step.
Thanks!

Taking the airbox off is not a big deal, and nothing is going through the carbs unless you are holding the throttle wide open with one hand and dropping stuff in with the other. I will have to defer to experts on which CDI interchanges and if I were in your position would probably check with Sean Morley for a replacement. His prices are fair, and with all the tech help he has provided I figure he deserves some of my business for sure.
Back in my fanatical gear head days I was running a pretty hot firebird with an HEI ignition. Had itermitant start and high RPM break-up that I couldn't figure out. Went through the carb 3 times thinking that was the problem as a visual didn't reveal any obvious electrical problems. I rushed through a spark check, which it had, in bright sunlight. latter at night after pulling a particularly wicked 428 Mach One Mustang out of the hole all the way to redline the break up came on again and he beat me. At that point I checked spark again in the dark and could see it was WEAK! Closely checked the ignition module and found it had a broken wire that was barely hanging on. Common problem with those as they age. Replaced it and she was running like an animal again.
Stay with it. It sucks now but learning and fixing that bike will be like a revelation.

 

[dj52l]

I saw a great post where it showed what to look for when I get to the CDI and how to replace any damaged transistors or diodes or whatever they are in there. anyway, once I get it out, I have an electronics wizard that I think would do any repairs to it locally.
Right now, since it starts this evening, I'm going for a short ride and waiting for the cooler weather with time to have at it! No start this morning .

 

[dj52l]

Ok, I just got back from my short ride, and the new Odyssey battery is not charging, or the regulator/rectifier I installed last Fall has quit. Since I installed the new battery last week, I've tested it several times, and it had been charging fine.
The evening I installed the battery, it acted like this, and I thought I had not gotten a wire plugged back in all the way, and after I checked it, the system showed it was charging at 13.5 to 14.0 at 3000 rpm.
But, it is cooler this evening than it has been for a month, 75 degrees at 8:15, so I wonder if it is the "cool" gremlin I've been dealing with every morning , shutting down the charging??
As I've been relating, the bike has started and run great every mid-day when it was 95 degrees and too hot to be riding. The last I rode was Sunday evening, very hot, and battery was up good after 35 miles, just by trying the starter, not taking a reading with meter. , it would not fire the last two mornings, but fired after work yesterday and today.
I'm on the trickle charger tonight and will check it tomorrow after work.

 

[dj52l]

I received the used relay and installed (front one) under the left scoop, also removed the 2 plastic pieces that holds those electronics, and checked the wiring behind it. I found all to be in good shape and dry. No fire the next morning, but started fine after work.
Last evening, I went back to the regulator wiring and replaced both plugs with heat shrink butt connectors and wrapped everything good just in case they were causing loss of current. (God help the next person figuring out the wiring and where the disconnect plugs went.) Checked and the r/r was charging fine at 14.0 at 3000 rpm. Went for a ride and bike started fine, both hot and after cool off at 10 PM.
This morning at 6:30 Am, no start. at non after work, started fine on first try.
This bike has not started first thing in the morning for a month now. Runs fine later in the day and the rest of the day.
The only thing left to check I can think of is the CDI, so i'm in the market for one, and will go under the air box it in cool weather when I have one in hand.

 

[dj52l]

I rode this evening, and the battery went down until I barely made it home. When I had the regular battery in it, 2 weeks ago, it would charge fine when it ran in hot weather. now, with a new odyssey battery and all of the R/R connections wired direct, the battery goes down when ridden in cooler (80 degree weather.) and still won't fire in early mornings.
My question now, am I just throwing away the money buying a used or new CDI? Or is this money I could be spending on a decent motorcycle?? I have absolutely had it with this piece of junk.
Is it possible for a CDI to cause a motorcycle to not have any spark at all in the mornings, then start and charge just great in very hot weather, then quit charging when it cools off in the evening. ???
I have worn my corbin seat and side covers out, taking them off and on so many times. I just can't see how when it is hot, it runs perfect, 80 degrees or cooler, it won't start???
I tested it in mid afternoon and it charged fine as rpms went up to 3000, 14.0 -14.50. Then when I ride in cooler evening, it quits charging???
I know I am repeating myself, but it just doesn't seem possible.