Power Commander 5 and Mileage

[Traumahawk]

I have a question about the power commander 5. I have a reflashed ECU, and I have a PCV to go on it, but havent gotten it installed yet, or tuned. I know that the PCV can be used to fine tune the fuel for max HP, but can it also be used to get the best MPG as well?

This is on a 2011.

Thanks

 

[dontmesswiththemax]

I'm sure the answer is yes but who has re-flashed the ECU? I know that the Tim Nash flash can be specifically set-up for use with a PC5 but I don't know what your re-flashed ECU has been set-up for. Adjusting the air/fuel mixture via the PC5 and dyno-ing before and after will give you an indication of performance and fuel readings to see whether it is possible. At the end of the day, you don't buy a Gen2 for fuel economy.
I removed the cat and kept the existing mufflers with existing ECU and fitted a PC5. This gave me improved HP and fuel efficiency, as dyno chart below indicates but the fuel improvement was marginal.

[/IMG]

 

[Traumahawk]

Its a Nash Flash ECU. Ive talked with Tim over the phone, and like he has said, typically 80% of the people that get the flash, are perfectly happy with it.....and thats it. The other 20% (because the flash is Vmax specific....but still generic in nature), because its NOT specifically for your bike, will lay down the PCV on top, to get the A/F tune perfect, and tune for the most HP.

I know from tuning on my 07, with the innovate A/F meter and dynoing.....A LOT, max hp was at 13.6 A/F, but best mileage was an A/F of 15+.

From the various people that Ive talked to, on the Gen 2 max HP is at an A/F of 13.2 to 13.6, I just dont know what the best mileage A/F mixture is supposed to be? Stoichiometric is of course 14.7 to 1, and Ive taken the 07 on the dyno to the 16's ( and it didnt like it....part throttle of course) It would buck, and just didnt like it.

So, just trying to get my ducks in a row BEFORE I hit the dyno with the 2011.

You can see the O2 bung on the 07, just below the right footpeg.

Oh, the 2011 will have a hindle 4-1 with a kerker competition baffle, TT air box, and the reflashed ECU.

 

[dontmesswiththemax]

Sounds like you have a conflict of interest. The mods you are proposing are for a performance set-up rather than fuel economy

 

[Traumahawk]

Sounds like you have a conflict of interest. The mods you are proposing are for a performance set-up rather than fuel economy

LOL, not really. Performance doesnt have to mean poor gas mileage. Will this be a Prius.....no, but can I improve upon it....yes. I have 125 HP+ on the 07, plus 41+ mpg. It just takes time and tuning.....and be willing to ask questions.

 

[Itgoes]

All of Gurued Geared tunes are a little bit rich. That ensures that they are all very safe for the engine.

A Dyno tune with a Power Commander will typically remove a little bit of fuel, which would typically give you a little more economy and a little more power.


In addition you can tune on the dyno in the cruise range.....small throttle openings at the RPM range you typically run on the highway. You raise the AFR to say 13.5 - 14.1 in that area.

Then you will see an improvement in mileage on highway rides. Not huge but noticeable. I've done that myself using and auto-tune module. the power Commander can hold 2 maps so you can switch it on and off with a toggle switch.

 

[dafish2]

All of Gurued Geared tunes are a little bit rich. That ensures that they are all very safe for the engine.

A Dyno tune with a Power Commander will typically remove a little bit of fuel, which would typically give you a little more economy me and a little more power.

In addition you can tune on the dyno in the cruise range.....small throttle openings at the RPM range you typically run on the highway. You raise the AFR to say 13.5 - 14.1 in that area.

Then you will see an improvement in mileage on highway rides. Not huge but noticeable. I've done that myself using and auto-tune module. the power Commander can hold 2 maps so you can switch it on and off with a toggle switch.

Mark:
I learn something every time you post. Two maps can be stored in a PC5? Who knew? Thanks! I'm one of the 80%, but still good info.

Traumahawk:

With only 4 gallons on board do you think you can make a meaningful difference? Heck a 10% improvement is maybe 6 minutes more between fuel stops, right? And even that seems a lot to hope for and and still expect any kind of reasonable throttle response. Of course maybe I'm nuts too..

One thing I found that gave me more range? I've used alcohol free gas a few times and I got roughly 10% improvement. Yes, I agree, I shouldn't have gained that much range. But I did it two ways, over 100 miles each way, and was over 28mpg while running mostly 80-90mph. In general I get 25mpg with 80% interstate. I felt like it ran a lot cooler too, and it was a really hot day. I'm left wondering if somehow the ECU was able to put in more timing. I also wonder if the straight gas had a better additive package. I think it was 93 octane too, and I normally run 91. Usually excess more octane depresses power and MPG both, but then the whole thing is odd. If it had been 5% I'd not be puzzled, but... And maybe it's 5% and the other 5% was just me being easier on the power demands over a longer ride.

BTW, since you seem to be AFR aware, have you ever heard of LoP operation? For grins sometime Google "Aviation" and "Lean of Peak". There is a whole school of thought on the topic. I've used it myself a fair bit some years back. Mind you it won't translate to a bike. It's just an interesting diversion you may enjoy reading about.

The bucking at 16:1? I'd guess slightly mismatched flow in the injectors. On matched injectors I've no recollection of more then very mild stumbling as AFR transitioned into fuel starvation and the started to die. Or then maybe a directly connected dyno-tire-drivetrain connection really magnifies the stumble relative to an air-prop connection.

Good luck with your project in any event.

 

[Traumahawk]

Mark:
I learn something every time you post. Two maps can be stored in a PC5? Who knew? Thanks! I'm one of the 80%, but still good info.

Traumahawk:

With only 4 gallons on board do you think you can make a meaningful difference? Heck a 10% improvement is maybe 6 minutes more between fuel stops, right? And even that seems a lot to hope for and and still expect any kind of reasonable throttle response. Of course maybe I'm nuts too..

One thing I found that gave me more range? I've used alcohol free gas a few times and I got roughly 10% improvement. Yes, I agree, I shouldn't have gained that much range. But I did it two ways, over 100 miles each way, and was over 28mpg while running mostly 80-90mph. In general I get 25mpg with 80% interstate. I felt like it ran a lot cooler too, and it was a really hot day. I'm left wondering if somehow the ECU was able to put in more timing. I also wonder if the straight gas had a better additive package. I think it was 93 octane too, and I normally run 91. Usually excess more octane depresses power and MPG both, but then the whole thing is odd. If it had been 5% I'd not be puzzled, but... And maybe it's 5% and the other 5% was just me being easier on the power demands over a longer ride.

BTW, since you seem to be AFR aware, have you ever heard of LoP operation? For grins sometime Google "Aviation" and "Lean of Peak". There is a whole school of thought on the topic. I've used it myself a fair bit some years back. Mind you it won't translate to a bike. It's just an interesting diversion you may enjoy reading about.

The bucking at 16:1? I'd guess slightly mismatched flow in the injectors. On matched injectors I've no recollection of more then very mild stumbling as AFR transitioned into fuel starvation and the started to die. Or then maybe a directly connected dyno-tire-drivetrain connection really magnifies the stumble relative to an air-prop connection.

Good luck with your project in any event.

Well I look at it this way, If I am getting a 10% increase at 30 MPG, then that is 12 extra miles. One of the main Vmax rallies around here is the rally at Eureka Springs. It is a "spirited" rally with the roads at the bottom of the ozarks. There are gen 1's and 2's that go. I remember a few years ago, there was about 80 miles between fuel stops, and a few gen 2's had a blinking fuel light at 80 miles. So even with that, there would be an additional 8 miles, so it will make a difference.

I always use ethanol free fuel if I can find it. Yep, there is a decrease in the amount of energy in gasoline if ethanol is added.

The bucking at 16 to 1, was on my 07 (Gen 1) which is pictured above. it is a carbed bike, but i have an O2 bung in the kerker 4-1. In the initial tuning, I would suction cup an innovate A/F meter to the tank to get a real time A/F readings as I would ride around. A friend of mines Ninja would have an A/F of 18 to 1, with no issues, so a difference in engine design and configuration is everything.

Last night I ordered a dynojet autotune, and a POD300, to allow me to get and tune in real time on the fly. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Mark is a wealth of knowledge and is always willing to help out. I called him last night, and he is always able to get me pointed into the right direction.

 

[TN_Max]

VMAX...gas mileage...

 

[Lil'skeet]

I wouldnt worry about fuel economy. One of the fastest bikes ever made. Not top speed of couse... A sixth and seventh gear would fix that though. Carry extra fuel in a bladder, and enjoy all the insane power.
So the bag on the rear seat has a bladder that holds 3.5 gallons. 130 miles to fuel stops running hard in mountains. TUNE FOR POWER! ONE OF THE FEW BIKES THAT DESERVES IT!
I average 18 mpg thru mountains. I don't know if that's good, but it's a cheap thrill compared to anything else I can think of.

 

[dan2theVmax]

Yeah, I rode from Indiana to the gulf coast in Mississippi and back. Never seen so many gas stations in my life. Had to stop every hour to hour and a half to fill up. I didn’t mind much as 1600 miles in two days is not the best on the ass, I appreciated the breaks, but my cousin on his vstrom was a little annoyed, he can go 230 miles between fill ups. I had more fun tho, that’s something you can always say when you own a vmax.

 

[Traumahawk]

I wouldnt worry about fuel economy. One of the fastest bikes ever made. Not top speed of couse... A sixth and seventh gear would fix that though. Carry extra fuel in a bladder, and enjoy all the insane power.
So the bag on the rear seat has a bladder that holds 3.5 gallons. 130 miles to fuel stops running hard in mountains. TUNE FOR POWER! ONE OF THE FEW BIKES THAT DESERVES IT!
I average 18 mpg thru mountains. I don't know if that's good, but it's a cheap thrill compared to anything else I can think of.

I still plan on having an extra tank as well....but as with most things in life it comes down to figuring things out. When you lean things out at part throttle, you will increase the gas mileage....AND get more power. Kinda like what i said in a post above, at eureka springs at the vmax rally, there were gen 2's that the fuel light was blinking at 80 miles per tankful, or 20 mpg. If I can increase 10%, then its 88 miles per tank. It is about having my cake and eating it too.

Kinda like this.

 

[oediehl]

I've got an '09 Gen2 with Delkevic pipes, K&N filter and the Gurued Gear Holeshot ECU reflash. My low fuel light goes on around 80 miles, and I've calculated 28-29 MPG. I use non-ethanol fuel

 

[rebeltaz83]

I've got to 105 before low fuel light, bone stock 2018. I threw in a K&N and pulled the restrictor out of the air box. But I was riding with my dad on his vstar 650 so I wasn't riding hard at all. Took the pic after I fueled up. Worst I got was 64 miles to fuel light. I could care less what my fuel mileage is, lol. I don't hear the nhra guys/gals complaining about fuel mileage. All with ethanol, I'm not paying $4 a gallon for non ethanol, and I'm only aware of 1 station that sells 93 ethanol free around me. I add a little sea foam like I did in my gen 1. But I can ride year round.

 

[Traumahawk]

I've got to 105 before low fuel light, bone stock 2018. I threw in a K&N and pulled the restrictor out of the air box. But I was riding with my dad on his vstar 650 so I wasn't riding hard at all. Took the pic after I fueled up. Worst I got was 64 miles to fuel light. I could care less what my fuel mileage is, lol. I don't hear the nhra guys/gals complaining about fuel mileage. All with ethanol, I'm not paying $4 a gallon for non ethanol, and I'm only aware of 1 station that sells 93 ethanol free around me. I add a little sea foam like I did in my gen 1. But I can ride year round.

Around here, its fairly easy to get Non Ethanol fuel, and of course that will add mileage.

I think that people are miss understanding me, when I talk about increasing the mileage of a gen 2 Vmax. My viewpoint is....why not? Why cant i have my cake and eat it too? Just because it hasnt been done before, doesnt mean that it cant be done.....or even try. When i went and dynod the 07.....I didnt know what i was doing, but i learned, and I experimented, and the 07 is now perfect.Approx 90 dyno runs will do that. I can crack open the throttle at 2K, with no hesitation all the way to 10K in any gear, and get over 40 mpg, and did it with factory pro needles. (During all of it, i learned how to tune a stage 1 kit.....as well).

To help, I have the PCV, and the Autotune, and the POD 300. Tim Nash is pointing me in the direction of using the AIS system to operate the autotune at various stages, and to turn the autotune off at other stages. That is interesting stuff.

I have NEVER complained about the gas mileage of a Gen 2, but everything can be better, because until you tune something specifically for you, your bikes current configuration, riding style....everything is a compromise.

I'm shooting for 200 RWHP on the 2011. I passed 125 RWHP on the 07, certainly passed that on the 86 (yellow)......132 RWHP (although that is a 1260 and tuned by PCW). The 05 that i have.....is essentially stock. Its more of a test mule

Everyone has to have goals.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Around here, its fairly easy to get Non Ethanol fuel, and of course that will add mileage.

I think that people are miss understanding me, when I talk about increasing the mileage of a gen 2 Vmax. My viewpoint is....why not? Why cant i have my cake and eat it too? Just because it hasnt been done before, doesnt mean that it cant be done.....or even try. When i went and dynod the 07.....I didnt know what i was doing, but i learned, and I experimented, and the 07 is now perfect.Approx 90 dyno runs will do that. I can crack open the throttle at 2K, with no hesitation all the way to 10K in any gear, and get over 40 mpg, and did it with factory pro needles. (During all of it, i learned how to tune a stage 1 kit.....as well).

To help, I have the PCV, and the Autotune, and the POD 300. Tim Nash is pointing me in the direction of using the AIS system to operate the autotune at various stages, and to turn the autotune off at other stages. That is interesting stuff.

I have NEVER complained about the gas mileage of a Gen 2, but everything can be better, because until you tune something specifically for you, your bikes current configuration, riding style....everything is a compromise.

I'm shooting for 200 RWHP on the 2011. I passed 125 RWHP on the 07, certainly passed that on the 86 (yellow)......132 RWHP (although that is a 1260 and tuned by PCW). The 05 that i have.....is essentially stock. Its more of a test mule

View attachment 70026 Everyone has to have goals.
View attachment 70027 View attachment 70028 View attachment 70029

That's awesome. It's your hobby.
Mine is older pick ups, and old cars....... Not much into the new muscle cars. I like old school carbs, and distributors.
Your after efficiency...... Nothing wrong with that. Why not have 200rwhp and average 40+ mpg. Won't know if it's possible if you don't try.

 

[jvs1670]

I've got to 105 before low fuel light, bone stock 2018. I threw in a K&N and pulled the restrictor out of the air box. But I was riding with my dad on his vstar 650 so I wasn't riding hard at all. Took the pic after I fueled up. Worst I got was 64 miles to fuel light. I could care less what my fuel mileage is, lol. I don't hear the nhra guys/gals complaining about fuel mileage. All with ethanol, I'm not paying $4 a gallon for non ethanol, and I'm only aware of 1 station that sells 93 ethanol free around me. I add a little sea foam like I did in my gen 1. But I can ride year round.

Where you able to pull that restrictor out without taking the whole airbox out? I looked at doing that when I put my K&N filter in but didn't want to take the whole damn thing out to do it.

 

[rebeltaz83]

Just take the top off. Air box separates into two halves, top and bottom, it's part of the top half. Screws around the perimeter, and one right in the middle. Flip the top over and you'll see where they melted the plastic down (looks like plastic rivets) grind em off, and pull it out. Assembly in reverse order minus the restrictor.

 

[jvs1670]

Alright cool so it sounds like no big deal, I'll give it a shot tomorrow. Thanks

 

[rebeltaz83]

Alright cool so it sounds like no big deal, I'll give it a shot tomorrow. Thanks

It's not bad, just time consuming with all the damn screws you have to take out. Not as easy as the gen 1s.