An Inconvenient Truth

[Jack Butler]

America is proud, at least a majority of them, that they are self sufficient and a large government program like healthcare is a shot to the chin of American pride. Or is that past pride, too many sheeple without a clue or a care and jump at anything free, the governments perfect trap! It's not free, you "pay" for it with your freedoms and losing a measure of self governance.

I get that! That's actually one of the better explanations I've heard!
It differences in our countries appear to be more obvious.
Of course it's not free; nor should it be.
The trouble is when it is allowed to make the huge profits that are made in healthcare in the USA.
I don't think there is any perfect system. Ours has shortages, long wait times, old infrastructure and a growing population.
The thing is, anyone with a health card will be treated the same and will have access to the entire system.
Not finding out your not covered when you thought you were, after you got sick.
I would love to see a user fee attached to our system.
The word socialist gets used in these situations, but it's incorrect!

 

[Rollie]

I get that! That's actually one of the better explanations I've heard!
It differences in our countries appear to be more obvious.
Of course it's not free; nor should it be.
The trouble is when it is allowed to make the huge profits that are made in healthcare in the USA.
I don't think there is any perfect system. Ours has shortages, long wait times, old infrastructure and a growing population.
The thing is, anyone with a health card will be treated the same and will have access to the entire system.
Not finding out your not covered when you thought you were, after you got sick.
I would love to see a user fee attached to our system.
The word socialist gets used in these situations, but it's incorrect!

How much is a huge profit ?
What is a user fee after you have paid for your healthcare through taxes ?
How do you define socialist ?

Just askin'

 

[85 MAX-fan]

You can build a wall around yourself if you want.
What is the rate of illegal immigration in Cananda? I absolutely do want a wall. Do you have the slightest notion of the murder and terror occurring in Mexico right now? It makes the loss of our soldiers lives in Iraq pale in comparison if you are looking at just the numbers. We cannot afford to simply let this happen in the US without intervention. And while on that subject, I do not believe the cartels exist because they are poor, disadvantaged, or because the US is somehow depriving them of anything. You will not get rid of this element by paying for their doctor bill and giving them a union job. How many were beheaded in Mexico in the last month??

That's an interesting comment 85 max fan on human nature.
It's what is different about our countries, I guess?

UUhhhmm, no, human nature is the same here as it is up there. I believe there is crime in Canada isn't there??

And, giving till it hurts...how about a 52% tax bracket.
Many in the middle class pay 40% or more, so I kinda get it!
With all the money and technology and brilliant minds that is in the USA, it should have happened by now.
I believe what I do to you affects me and what I do to myself affects you.
We are all connected.
I am not doing anything to anyone by requiring that they take care of themselves.
Holding you back or not including you does nothing for my advancement, but lending you a hand up does.

Again, nobody is holding anybody back by requiring that they take care of themselves. In the US we all have opportunity, even now with how screwed up things have become. However, destroying the future of our children and country with a financial ponzi scheme to "pay" for health care will hold us all back.

It doesn't have to be survival of the fittest, really!
There is lots of money in your country to deal with it, no?

Lot's of the money makers and brilliant people that make our country so productive know that handouts don't create wealth or well being, they crush it.
Opportunity and freedom to achieve creates a higher living standard for more people than "entitlement programs" ever can. It also costs less.

 

[Jack Butler]

How much is a huge profit ?
What is a user fee after you have paid for your healthcare through taxes ?
How do you define socialist ?

Just askin'

The user fee would help pervent abuse. Nothing big, but enough to keep people honest.
Not sure if your a Maher fan, but he does a good job suming things up IMO!

And if medicine is for profit, and war, and the news, and the penal system, my question is: what's wrong with firemen? Why don't they charge? They must be commies. Oh my God! That explains the red trucks!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-not-everything-i_b_244050.html

 

[Thevmaxrider]

Wow, this thread has veered a bit from Al Gore to health care. IMHO everyone is missing the point by a long shot. The issues with health care in the US stem from the legal system and not the doctors etc. By being a society that is hooked on the get rich litigation for medical malpractice etc. they have forced doctors to have HUGE insurance premiums just to practice medicine, which in turn makes them, and hospitals by extension, charge much higher fees to patients and their insurance companies which raises the cost at the back end. Canada's system works after a fashion and my experience with it has been pretty good, although I don't necessarily like the "assembly line" attitude my old family doctor had, and my wait time for double knee surgery was pretty short to be honest (less than 3 months). I also understand the gripe that middle class US citizens have, having been one for years, that why should they finance health care insurance for folks that already get it free of charge now. I do believe that welfare recipients already get free health care in most, if not all, states paid for by the taxpayers. Why reinvent the wheel when there is already a mechanism in place to take care of the folks that do not have "medical insurance"? Obamacare is not the answer and doesn't even treat the symptoms.

Off the soapbox now.......

 

[RaWarrior]

The "green credits" are the biggest farce I've heard yet about the sudden "carbon crisis". Put it another way.....I'm too lazy to go on a diet and exercise to lose weight. Instead, I will buy "health credits" that will pay someone else to eat salads and go jogging. That way I get the warm fuzzy feeling of increasing overall public health, without having to actually bother doing it myself.

Makes a lot of sense, right?

 

[Rockatansky]

The user fee would help pervent abuse. Nothing big, but enough to keep people honest.
Not sure if your a Maher fan, but he does a good job suming things up IMO!

And if medicine is for profit, and war, and the news, and the penal system, my question is: what's wrong with firemen? Why don't they charge? They must be commies. Oh my God! That explains the red trucks!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-not-everything-i_b_244050.html

I am definately not a fan of Bill Maher however i do entertain myself from time to time reading his opinions after all he is a comedian by trade. If you are inclined to read his rhetoric I think it would only be fair to consider the points of view from the other side of the isle as well. Obviously you spend more of you time on the left of center which is your choice. Glen Beck has an interesting show scheduled for tonight that I might suggest you watch.

This thread and the thread on unions has been a real eye opener for all reading them regarding the motivations of the people posting to them. It all boils down to figures at the end of the day. All economy issues and budgets must be viewed as a P&L, balance sheet or general ledger. When city, state or federal governments plan budgets they should be handeled like a business would handle them. No money, cut expenses period. Right now this government is heading quickly past the point of no return due to the accrual of unsustainable debts. The sad reality is that when the scales tip and the US ecomomy fails so does the economy of our Canadian relatives. More spending when we are already Spending at 107% of GDP?? All economists agree that when you exceed 85% of GDP your debt becomes unsustainable. A 3.7 trillion dollar budget???? 267 billion in deficit spending in the month of February (1 month)?? Raise the debt ceiling that is currently 14 Trillion dollars??? We all need to be less concerned about our ideals and more concerned about saving our asses. The bottom line is that there is no money for ANYTHING else and the need to make MAJOR cuts in govt spending is at critical mass. This needs to happen immediately or we are all screwed.

You said there is plenty of money in this country? No there is not. Watch the hedge funds they are a good indicator of whats to come in short order. Lets just hope one of the soverign wealth funds does not do to us what they did in 2008.

 

[max_caper]

You said there is plenty of money in this country? No there is not. Watch the hedge funds they are a good indicator of whats to come in short order. Lets just hope one of the soverign wealth funds does not do to us what they did in 2008.

I enjoy how this thread has evolved from one social issue to another. It goes to show how big spending: medicare, carbon credits, wars, etc affects all of us on some level or another.

Rockatansky has a good point about the lack of money and hedge funds too.

Why is it that spending big bucks on Obama-care has come under such fire but few in this thread are complaining about the obscene costs of maintaining military operations overseas?

Blaine

 

[Hatter]

Why is it that spending big bucks on Obama-care has come under such fire but few in this thread are complaining about the obscene costs of maintaining military operations overseas?

That is easy...

Would you rather we fight them OVER THERE, or fight them OVER HERE? One way or another we are going to fight them, I'd just rather we bomb the fuck out of their country than they bomb the fuck out of us. :confused2:

 

[RaWarrior]

No, I also think it's a colossal waste of money not to mention lives of soldiers to maintain occupation in the middle east. The US needs to quit being the world police. European countries have the attitude we keep poking around in their business anyway, so let them fend for themselves....not like Europe is some third-world wasteland without a military.

Having US and allied troops try and play peacekeeper babysitter obviously isn't working. Now there's attacks directed at troops in anger against occupation on their "holy ground" or whatever. Pull out, send the troops home, and let them shoot each other up. They pull more bullshit against us or our allies, nuke the country. Either need to leave it alone, or do the job right and be done with it. This "polite war" on terror is a waste of resources and lives.

 

[Hatter]

As long as it's not directed at us or our immediate allies, I don't see why we're involved.

They blew up the Cole, and they killed almost 3,000 people ON OUR OWN SOIL. I'd say that it is directed AT US.

 

[max_caper]

That is easy...

Would you rather we fight them OVER THERE, or fight them OVER HERE? One way or another we are going to fight them, I'd just rather we bomb the fuck out of their country than they bomb the fuck out of us. :confused2:

Seriously, I'd rather fight them over here on my terms. On their own turf they have strength in numbers, they know the land/how to live off it/how to hide long-term in it and it doesn't cost them a penny. They also have mass numbers of supporters in the civilian population so you're never sure who the ememy is. Force them to bring the fight to you and the advantages switch in your favour. There are going to be military and civilian casualties either way.

Or, you could simply bomb the fuck out of them...send in some heavy hitters from 2000 miles away, drop what it takes, and come back home.

You cannot eliminate every dangerous element no matter how long you occupy a country. Terrorists work in cells; bomb their base and they'll be in a new one in 24 hours, bomb their country and they'll find safe haven in another. Establishing a peaceful form of govt in Iraq or Afghanistan will not stop the extremists from trying to fulfill their agendas.

Blaine

 

[[email protected]]

Well, we are involved in Libya now. One f-15 down today due to mechanical failures. My brother in law shipped out of his base in lakenheath, england over the weekend. Im guessing they are now stationed in italy. He is not allowed to say. He did mention that the mechanical failure was not on one of his jets, he is a mechanic. But it was from his base in england and left from where he is currently stationed. Last I heard the pilot/copilot made it out ok with minimal injuries.

 

[RaWarrior]

[/B]
You cannot eliminate every dangerous element no matter how long you occupy a country. Terrorists work in cells; bomb their base and they'll be in a new one in 24 hours, bomb their country and they'll find safe haven in another. Establishing a peaceful form of govt in Iraq or Afghanistan will not stop the extremists from trying to fulfill their agendas.

Blaine

+1

There's also far more soldiers dead/injured in the occupation than there were 9/11 victims. There's also tens of thousands of them dead. But like Blaine said, the instant one dies another springs up in his place. Like roaches....can't ever totally get rid of them. They obviously view human lives as disposable whereas we don't, which would make a full on war with them difficult. So we're locked in this polite occupation, like a mother giving a waggle of the finger to a naughty child. You know the instant the parent looks away the kid is going to scamper off and blow someone up. It's not a solution, it's procrastination at the cost of soldiers lives.

 

[85 MAX-fan]

I enjoy how this thread has evolved from one social issue to another. It goes to show how big spending: medicare, carbon credits, wars, etc affects all of us on some level or another.

Rockatansky has a good point about the lack of money and hedge funds too.

Why is it that spending big bucks on Obama-care has come under such fire but few in this thread are complaining about the obscene costs of maintaining military operations overseas?

Blaine

The cost of "entitlements" in the US DWARFS the spending you mention. Socialized health care dwarfs the rest of the entitlements, and it will not work. Once fully implemented there will be no aspect of your life here in the US that is not subject to government intervention period. They are going to be taxing everything that they can to fund this debocle. Take a look at the number of IRS agents that are being added to collect.

I agree that we should let the socialist nations of Europe defend themselves. Of course that may be difficult since they have divested themselves of their military to a large degree. Similar in many ways to Canada.
The leaders of those nations rightfully ascertained that they could divert the money spent on the military to their socialist agenda, and I think it only right that they reap the whirlwind. And to that point, I suggest we sit out the next world war when they are on the verge of being shoveled under.

 

[max_caper]

The cost of "entitlements" in the US DWARFS the spending you mention. Socialized health care dwarfs the rest of the entitlements, and it will not work. Once fully implemented there will be no aspect of your life here in the US that is not subject to government intervention period. They are going to be taxing everything that they can to fund this debocle. Take a look at the number of IRS agents that are being added to collect.

I agree that we should let the socialist nations of Europe defend themselves. Of course that may be difficult since they have divested themselves of their military to a large degree. Similar in many ways to Canada.
The leaders of those nations rightfully ascertained that they could divert the money spent on the military to their socialist agenda, and I think it only right that they reap the whirlwind. And to that point, I suggest we sit out the next world war when they are on the verge of being shoveled under.

I am not surewhat European countries you are currently helping unless you're referring to WWI and WWII in which, yes, you did save the day.

1 trillion spent so far in Iraq and Afghanistan (Middle East) over the last decade and hundreds of millions in Libya (after 3 days!). This is just the current tally. This money is being sent to countries thousands of miles away to reduce the threat of an attack on domestic soil.

Obamacare is projected to cost about 2 trillion over ten years and the object is to help your own. If Obamacare is not the answer I know there are smart people in the US who could make it work. The thing is, Obama promised health care reform and mentioned a type of universal healthcare in his campaign. He was then elected. Should he attempt to make further socialist reforms (e.g. firearms control) then he could be voted out in the next election by a leader who supports the values of the majority.

In a nutshell, big govt WILL find a way to spend YOUR money...given a choice, I would rather they spend it at home to help our own.

Blaine

 

[max_caper]

They blew up the Cole, and they killed almost 3,000 people ON OUR OWN SOIL. I'd say that it is directed AT US.

They blew up the Cole in Yemen which was an attack organized and executed by a very small number of extermists. As a result, US soldiers no longer have to wait to shoot until fired upon.

911 was a tragic event. My understanding about 911 is that a terrorist cell was able to work in small numbers domestically to perform this massacre. I am not sure how occupying one or two countries in the middle east will prevent other cells from attempting a similar event. Once a terrorist with an agenda is able to get to American soil, he will no doubt be able to find the raw materials there to carry out his agenda.

Blaine

 

[Rollie]

The civilized world is not ready to stop terrorism . Until you can strike fear in the hearts and minds of the friends, sympathizers , financial supporters and familys of the terrorists , they will continue to strike and hide forever , or until we surrender . That fear could be generated , but the civilized world will not get down to that level in the near future.



Some research on illegal alien / immigrant costs / spending in the U.S.A. has revealed we spend approx. $ 338 .3 Billion a year .

$ 11-22 B welfare by the state gov'ts
$ 2.2 B on food assistance , food stamps , WIC , free school lunches
$ 2.5 B on Medicaid
$ 12 B primary and secondary school education
$ 17 B for education of American-born children / anchor babies
$ 3 M ( per day ) to incarcerate illegals - 30 % of all federal Prison inmates are illegals - Illegal alien crime rate is 2 and 1/2 times that of white non-illegal aliens . Their children will add to these figures
$ 90 B Welfare & social services by the Federal gov't / taxpayers
$ 200 B in suppressed Americal wages

 

[Jack Butler]

...compared to trillians on war against an ideology!
What is the definition of terrorism and where do you for look it?
Something that abstract makes it easy to keep the war machine running, no?

 

[Rollie]

An ideaology or doctrine of an individual or class of people that will not tolerate any other religion but theirs , and will kill you and your family because of it . Excuse me , but that is one of the foundation of reasons the U.S.A. was formed , freedom of religion . Yes , we will spend whatever comes after Trillion for freedom . We will not trade freedom for anything.

Did you happen to see the Mel Gibson movie , Braveheart /? The last thing he said was FREEDOM .

Since you didn't answer my ? on what is socialism , let me help . A theory or doctrine whereby the means of production and distribution are owned by society rather than individuals ; a Marxist , communist , radical , social-democrat , non-capitalistic . Sorry , not what we believe in.