An Inconvenient Truth

[85 MAX-fan]

What is the definition of terrorism and where do you for look it?
Something that abstract makes it easy to keep the war machine running, no?

I would have to research the exact definition terrorism in the dictionary as I do not have it memorized. I do know that strapping explosives on your children and having them blow themselves up on a crowded bus certainly fits my idea of what terrorism is. This movement is a death cult.

Wahabism is spreading around our world. It is a movement many here do not understand, and refuse to denounce as they are too busy drinking the coolaid from the folks that preach singing Kumbaya and tolerance.
I refuse to be tolerant of those that intend to spread caliphate via the muzzle of a rifle, or an explosive device. The Wahabis on the other hand refuse to be tolerant of dissent, in any form. Unfortunate as it may be, I see no alternative to war at some point. They have no intention of negotiating, and make that quite clear if you listen to them and not the network news!

 

[max_caper]

Our constitution exists to limit the federal government. Combined with the constitution we can prevent this by VOTING. Resignation to defeat is a willingness to agree to serfdom.

And here there is a clear goal. To Stop the spread of Wahabism via MILITARY VICTORY. Whether it is achievable is debatable, but no one I know desires to continue that conflict. Win yes, continue forever - absolutely not.
There is no end for Socialized health care, it will by nature continue to grow and the average citizen is going to be forced to pay the increasing tab, or be jailed for refusal to comply. That is a perfect example of tyranny.

I misunderstood your comment about assisting Europe; I thought you were speaking in terms of military aid only. You have helped many European countries in the financial dumpster. How much money has the US borrowed/continues to be borrow from China? Could it be argued that China is helping to bail the US out in terms of supporting its military spending, bailouts?

You cannot stop an ideology with bullets and bombs, just damage it in the short term. Unfortunately, the collateral damage of bullets and bombs (civilian casualties) may have the opposite effect and create more enemies.

You are correct in that healthcare will be an ongoing expense and that taxpayers will carry the load. This is true. You mention your military involvement will not last forever but has a date to withdraw from these territories been set? How much more of an increasing tab in terms of time/money/soldier's lives is considered enough?

Blaine

 

[max_caper]

Powell would have to run on the Dems ticket to first whip O'Bamer ' cause he has already chosen his path , and it ain't Republicaan or Conservative or Tea Party. Ted I could get behind , or the Donald , or Herman Cain .

Sorry but I'm not up to speed on Powell, I thought he was Republican. What about Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf? The Schwartzkopf/Nugent ticket for 2012...what do you think?

Blaine

 

[Slacker]

http://www.teslacoverup.com/index4.php?v=y

Happened to get an email that lead me to this. I understand it's a sales pitch but wonder what truth there is to it. Scam or another cover up for bucks? With this being the info age, seems the truth is hard to reach with all the liars and disinformation out there. Mostly, to hide the truth.

 

[85 MAX-fan]

How much money has the US borrowed/continues to be borrow from China? Could it be argued that China is helping to bail the US out in terms of supporting its military spending, bailouts?
The Chinese are supporting our politicians free for all spending, and some would say they are hoping it leads to collapse of our nation in the long run. Time will tell, and I do not subscribe to that theory, and at the same time believe they are no friend of freedom. They have made it clear that the lending is about to stop due to the tremendous debt load and clearly catastophic spending programs we are currently using.

You cannot stop an ideology with bullets and bombs, just damage it in the short term. Unfortunately, the collateral damage of bullets and bombs (civilian casualties) may have the opposite effect and create more enemies.

I would disagree with this. Watch the movie Charlie Wilson's War. From what I understand very factual acount on our funding of Jihad against the Soviets, and how we screwed up big time when we pulled out and let the Taliban seize power. Our politicians desire to pull out on a schedule led to the Taliban forcing their will on all within their grasp, and they don't vote to decide politics or ideology.
We were quite successful stopping the ideology of the Nazis with bullets and bombs. They were another death cult. Even after we crushed their organised military, with force, they waged a campaign of terror and violence that we stopped because we were willing to find and execute every one of these fanatics wherever they were hiding, no discussion, no negotiation, and no encounter group to discuss everyones feelings first.

You are correct in that healthcare will be an ongoing expense and that taxpayers will carry the load. This is true. You mention your military involvement will not last forever but has a date to withdraw from these territories been set? How much more of an increasing tab in terms of time/money/soldier's lives is considered enough?

Blaine

Funny you mention a date for withdrawal. We actually are adhering somewhat to a schedule of withdrawal in Iraq put in place by our previous president.
Really though, I believe neither the Canadians or the US military entered into WWII with a withdrawal date. It would have been a rediculas idea to propose at the time.
Let me ask, just how do you propose to deal with a religious/political movement that espouses mass murder, torture, and their forced take-over of society in general. Do you think the Wahabists are interested in shaking hands and letting bygones be bygones????
We let these nut cases continue to multiply and the terrorism that the rest of the world has been subjected to for decades will happen in Canada and the States with increased regularity guaranteed. They have stated as much openly, and without reservation. They do not share your views of right and wrong, nor are they concerned about living side by side with you. How much time money and how many lives are worth stopping this insanity?
:ummm:

 

[max_caper]

Really though, I believe neither the Canadians or the US military entered into WWII with a withdrawal date. It would have been a rediculas idea to propose at the time.

True. There was no withdrawal date when our countries entered WWII. Consider the general differences between fighting terrorists now and fighting the Axis in WWII:

Know your enemy: In WWII you knew, in most instances, who your enemy was. Each army wore its own colour. Tanks, planes, soldiers had the colours of its country or political power. Terrorists: do not use/wear anything that separates them from another citizen in that land. They do not make themselves as obvious targets.

Know your targets: In WWII yout targets were centralized; enemy factories, transports, depots are large targets that could be bombed to cripple your enemy's supply. Also in WWII you had more clear-cut boundaries/borders between enemy territory and friendly territory. e.g. if you bombed Berlin, Dresden or Tokyo you knew you were hitting enemy territory. Terrorists can be anywhere and do not present themselves as large targets of opportunity. They are not confined to a border. Terrorists live off the land so you cannot bomb their supply depots.


Let me ask, just how do you propose to deal with a religious/political movement that espouses mass murder, torture, and their forced take-over of society in general. Do you think the Wahabists are interested in shaking hands and letting bygones be bygones????
We let these nut cases continue to multiply and the terrorism that the rest of the world has been subjected to for decades will happen in Canada and the States with increased regularity guaranteed. They have stated as much openly, and without reservation. They do not share your views of right and wrong, nor are they concerned about living side by side with you. How much time money and how many lives are worth stopping this insanity?
:ummm:

Perhaps the answer of "who will stop them" is that their own people will stop them. I am noticing that the citizens of Egypt and Libya are exerting their will over the few in power who would persecute them and suppress their freedoms. Everyone wants balance but sometimes we have to sway from one extrme to another to find this balance.

Another theory is that, without a common enemy, the in-fighting between the various extremist clans in the Middle East will resume and they will eliminate each other.

Blaine

 

[85 MAX-fan]

Perhaps the answer of "who will stop them" is that their own people will stop them. I am noticing that the citizens of Egypt and Libya are exerting their will over the few in power who would persecute them and suppress their freedoms.
We were told that about Iran back in the 70's, the press reported that "students" were protesting the evil Shaw. But answer this, who took over??
Does anybody believe that there is not a serious risk of this exact scenario playing out in Libya or Egypt??


Everyone wants balance but sometimes we have to sway from one extrme to another to find this balance.

Another theory is that, without a common enemy, the in-fighting between the various extremist clans in the Middle East will resume and they will eliminate each other.

Blaine

Well, we sat out Rwanda, where 100's of thousands were murdered and maimed via machete. We sat out Cambodia where somewhere between 1-3 million (we will never know exactly) people were starved, tortured, and bludgeoned to death. The different factions eliminated each other all right, and we sat and let men women and children get butchered. Was that the right choice?? We didn't sway from one extreme to the other, we watched the slaughter, if we were even aware of it at the time.....

 

[max_caper]

Well, we sat out Rwanda, where 100's of thousands were murdered and maimed via machete. We sat out Cambodia where somewhere between 1-3 million (we will never know exactly) people were starved, tortured, and bludgeoned to death. The different factions eliminated each other all right, and we sat and let men women and children get butchered. Was that the right choice?? We didn't sway from one extreme to the other, we watched the slaughter, if we were even aware of it at the time.....

Iran had a "freedom movement" of sorts with it's students but the reform momentum in Libya and Egypt has already gone beyond what the Iranian students tried to accomplish. When the right catalyst unites the masses, there will be change. It may or may not be the change that was expected but it's change nevertheless.

The massacres you describe are horrible. Could they have been prevented by US intervention? Maybe. Who can say for sure? You cannot be everywhere in the world for everyone all the time...you just don't have the manpower or budget to do this. There will always be tyrants, dictators, and psychopaths in power somewhere.

Hypothetically, if universal healthcare cost the exact same amount as military intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, where would you rather see this money spent: helping people overseas or your own people in terms of healthcare?

Blaine

 

[kaboom]

Sorry but I'm not up to speed on Powell, I thought he was Republican. What about Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf? The Schwartzkopf/Nugent ticket for 2012...what do you think?

Blaine

SCHWARTZKOPF/NUGENT GETS MY VOTE!!!!!!!unk:

NUGENT/SCHWARTZKOPF would be better

 

[85 MAX-fan]

Hypothetically, if universal healthcare cost the exact same amount as military intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, where would you rather see this money spent: helping people overseas or your own people in terms of healthcare?

Blaine

Our entitlement programs DWARF the military intervention you mention. It is now going to become worse at an alarming rate.
The whole point of those that argue against socialism is that it has universally resulted in a lower living standard for all, rather than a "hand up". The scenario you describe will never have the pay off that you reference. It doesn't work.
There is a reason that the US has become the most awesome creator of wealth and prosperity the world has ever known in only about 225 years. It was not through screwing others, but by unleashing the power of those that wish to build their vision, and employ others in the process without having their efforts diverted to build a welfare state.
It was suggested by those that wrote our constitution that our republic would only stand until people learned that they could vote to increase their income with the tax payer's money (I am paraphrasing the quote).
With freedom to choose how you spend YOUR money, you will always spend it more efficiently than the government. Two decades ago we voted to fundamentally change the way we gave hand-outs to people here, as it had resulted in entrenching poverty across generations, rather than eliminating it. That has now been reversed, and a system implemented to guarantee the power of the statists in our country. Voters that either depend on the socialists to care for them, or work for the socialists to obtain income, will form a patronage army that may prove impossible to reverse.
I feel your example is indeed hypothetical, and not going to happen in reality. Time will tell how it works in the end.

 

[max_caper]

[There is a reason that the US has become the most awesome creator of wealth and prosperity the world has ever known in only about 225 years. It was not through screwing others, but by unleashing the power of those that wish to build their vision, and employ others in the process without having their efforts diverted to build a welfare state.
It was suggested by those that wrote our constitution that our republic would only stand until people learned that they could vote to increase their income with the tax payer's money (I am paraphrasing the quote).
With freedom to choose how you spend YOUR money, you will always spend it more efficiently than the government. Two decades ago we voted to fundamentally change the way we gave hand-outs to people here, as it had resulted in entrenching poverty across generations, rather than eliminating it. That has now been reversed, and a system implemented to guarantee the power of the statists in our country. Voters that either depend on the socialists to care for them, or work for the socialists to obtain income, will form a patronage army that may prove impossible to reverse.
I feel your example is indeed hypothetical, and not going to happen in reality. Time will tell how it works in the end.[/QUOTE]

I hear what you're saying about your current "entitlement" program dwarfing your military budget. I apologise for the poor comparison of budget divisions. I wonder how much closer these 2 numbers would be if the undisclosed military budget was known!

I am not undermining capitalism or the American dream of properity. You are free to pursue whatever enterprise you choose and your govt will continue to spend YOUR tax dollars on whatever it chooses. The govt decides which over-budget weapons it will buy and how many. The govt will decide which country to aid and which to leave alone, which one to loan money to, etc.

However, if you actually did have a say/choice on where a trillion dollars of your tax dollars was spent would you choose foreign occupation or healthcare?

Blaine

 

[gundoc_iowa]

A real eye opener is to really research the Toyota Prius Hybrid...the guys on top gear go off all the time about it...Toyota actually creates more pollution, toxic waste and "greenhouse" gases getting the materials to make the batteries than the damn cars will ever "help" but because people believe they are saving the planet...check out this link. The prius is more expensive over time than a Hummer for god's sake (as far as total energy cost, electricity etc.)

http://www.cafepharma.com/boards/showthread.php?t=206826

 

[max_caper]

A real eye opener is to really research the Toyota Prius Hybrid...the guys on top gear go off all the time about it...Toyota actually creates more pollution, toxic waste and "greenhouse" gases getting the materials to make the batteries than the damn cars will ever "help" but because people believe they are saving the planet...check out this link. The prius is more expensive over time than a Hummer for god's sake (as far as total energy cost, electricity etc.)

http://www.cafepharma.com/boards/showthread.php?t=206826

I heard about that! The carbon footprint to create and Prius is huge! Then there's the disposal of the waste byproducts used in making it and the concerns about many of the toxic materials in the car when it goes to the landfill. Not good! I wonder how the new Chevy Volt compares to the Prius in terms of carbon footprints?

Blaine

 

[85 MAX-fan]

[f



I am not undermining capitalism or the American dream of properity. You are free to pursue whatever enterprise you choose and your govt will continue to spend YOUR tax dollars on whatever it chooses. The govt decides which over-budget weapons it will buy and how many. The govt will decide which country to aid and which to leave alone, which one to loan money to, etc.
They will also decide which group to send our tax money without any worry over the ability of our children to pay the tab. We are broke as a nation. We currently have the biggest debt ever accrued by any nation.

However, if you actually did have a say/choice on where a trillion dollars of your tax dollars was spent would you choose foreign occupation or healthcare?

Blaine

Nice try. Sorry, I would likely vote to spend the right amount of money to win the right military conflict.

I would not vote for socialist health care period. It is spending money we don't have at the expense of our freedom, standard of living, and our future generations prosperity.
Having big brother pay for my Depends diapers after I work 60 years to fund his lavish retirement benefits is of little use if Al Quiada flys an airplane into my office building, or detonates an explosive vest in the train car I am taking to work.

 

[Rollie]

Nice try. Sorry, I would likely vote to spend the right amount of money to win the right military conflict.

I would not vote for socialist health care period. It is spending money we don't have at the expense of our freedom, standard of living, and our future generations prosperity.
Having big brother pay for my Depends diapers after I work 60 years to fund his lavish retirement benefits is of little use if Al Quiada flys an airplane into my office building, or detonates an explosive vest in the train car I am taking to work.

Amen ........... Freedom First !

 

[max_caper]

Al Quiada flys an airplane into my office building, or detonates an explosive vest in the train car I am taking to work.

Thank-you for you opinion on where you'd spend your nation's money. That's all I was wondering. We will have to agree to disagree on the best place to spend our tax money both as a couple of individuals as two different nations. I would choose to care for my own over an idea that military efforts overseas might somehow protect me at home.

I will also have to disagree on a "right military target". It has been proven that terrorist cells don't occupy any one region. 9 years trying to find Bin Laden should prove this. He could just as easily be hiding in Pakistan as Afghanistan. There's a lot of countries where he could hide and Al Quiada has continued to strike in spite of occupations in the Middle East.

I've enjoyed our debate!

Blaine

 

[Slacker]

I mentioned before of a news email I received a couple years ago. It mentioned of the Russians discovering fossil fuels weren't. Just happened to think of it this eve and quickly found these sites. Not only is the make up of oil interesting, but the carbon thing, also. I think we've royally been zoomed.

http://climateresearchnews.com/2009...t-victim-of-green-hysteria-by-peter-j-morgan/

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3952

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Theory/SustainableOil/

 

[max_caper]

Amen ........... Freedom First !

You are free to vote. After that, the Govt decides. Obama-care is proof of that.

Blaine

 

[Redbone]

Thank-you for you opinion on where you'd spend your nation's money. That's all I was wondering. We will have to agree to disagree on the best place to spend our tax money both as a couple of individuals as two different nations. I would choose to care for my own over an idea that military efforts overseas might somehow protect me at home.

I will also have to disagree on a "right military target". It has been proven that terrorist cells don't occupy any one region. 9 years trying to find Bin Laden should prove this. He could just as easily be hiding in Pakistan as Afghanistan. There's a lot of countries where he could hide and Al Quiada has continued to strike in spite of occupations in the Middle East.

I've enjoyed our debate!

Blaine

IMO they don't want to "find" him, it is much more effective to keep him "alive and planning to attack again" so there is a reason to stay in Mid East to keep Al Queda busy. If they were smart they would just lay low for a few years build their network stronger/ more sophisticated then attack again.

 

[SpecOps13]

Brian, They Are...:bang head: