EFI Project

[one2dmax]

I can get a variety of bulk hoses from Samco too that are nice silicon stuff that would hold up well.

Sean

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Gary, as far as a striaght intake, what would happen if you basically made the base/flange part (with the oval cut out) and then you could basically take a tube/pipe and bend it into an oval. You wouldn't need anything too long, but this tube would basically be a lip and you could use some hose as the transition from the throttle body to the intake. A few hose clamps and you would be done. The hose would basically make the circular to oval transition for you. Here is a quick screen shot of what I was thinking.

That's a good thought. Thinking we may want a good solid seat for the injector bodies. There will be some sort of throttle linkage arrangement between the forward and rear banks of the injector bodies. I have done the transition before using a single machined detail. I'd like to stay away from a weldment if possible. If there is enough interest it would be a very simple casting with little machining required. Your idea is a good one and there are companies that actually sell oval tube. Check this out, of course as usual wrong size.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/OvalTubing/ovaltubing.html

Here's some pics of mechanical setup I did. The porting on these heads is way over what we would want (stock). But you can get the general idea with these pics, and of course we'd like to set them up like they belong where they are...in relation to the scoop cutouts.

 

[mnmax]

"If there is enough interest it would be a very simple casting with little machining required"


Turbomax,

Try this guy for casting. I hope this is his email, I dont have it in my mailbox anymore. I believe it is [email protected] or qau.



Or anyone elso looking for custom casted alum vmax parts, replacements for the platic stuff on the max. He has stuff on ebay once in a while. he makes

-the grey plastic dust ring on the rear wheel in casted polished alum, this looks sweet with polished wheels

-the trianluar neck peices where the key switch is located, both sides of bike of course

-complete body

-tach/temp housing

-side covers for radiator

 

[Birdoprey]

How about the newer ignitions that use a single pickup. There are plenty of 90 and up bikes that use the single pickups and digital ignitions Sean

Sean,

A problem with the later pickup is that it has several triggers on the flywheel that pass the one pickup. The MS has no way of knowing which to use. I know the one has a delayed neg pulse to indicate Cyl #1(or did the "Guru" say it was actually for #4?). The MS would'nt know what to do with that as its code was setup for more "conventional" types of triggers. Not triggers that seem to be made for this one bike! I'm still shaking my head at the complexity of this ancient motorcycle...!!! All i can say is that it was WAAAAAY ahead of its time back in 85!
I've not counted it out, but it looks to be VERY doubtful that either pickup(85-89 or 90-up) will be of use.

Good news is that we do not need a crank or cam trigger to run EFI only. Its just needed for the ignition side. The MS will be quite happy using either the tach signal(if its clean enough) or simply the negative side of ignition coil #1.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

"If there is enough interest it would be a very simple casting with little machining required"


Turbomax,

Try this guy for casting. I hope this is his email, I dont have it in my mailbox anymore. I believe it is [email protected] or qau.



Or anyone elso looking for custom casted alum vmax parts, replacements for the platic stuff on the max. He has stuff on ebay once in a while. he makes

-the grey plastic dust ring on the rear wheel in casted polished alum, this looks sweet with polished wheels

-the trianluar neck peices where the key switch is located, both sides of bike of course

-complete body

-tach/temp housing

-side covers for radiator

Thanks you for the info, had seen his stuff on ebay and he seems to have disappeared lately. Nice work too, looks to be lost wax cast with very little porosity in the material. I'll try to contact him.

 

[one2dmax]

I can get castings done locally for very minimal cost (about $25 per intake manifold) but that is a solid casting - meaning the inner hole won't be bored. It wouldn't be much more for the inner to be done but we have to buy the molds which run about $2000 per part we want to make (meaning $4000 for a pair - front and rear).

Sean Morley

 

[Birdoprey]

Since Gary started the poll about whether or not to retain the V-boost system on our EFI project, i would like to visit that in detail and get others input/thoughts...

Here are my thoughts:

The V-boost is a factory item and one of the neat things paticular to this bike, therefore i like the idea of keeping it. But there are a few things to consider:
What the factory is trying to do with it is to get the "best of both worlds" in terms of low end tq/response AND ultimate flow potential and hp up top(of the V-max rpm scale that is). A small carb will provide very good throttle response and tq down low which is where most of us spend our time and this makes for a fun ride putting around town. The down side to the small carb is that it becomes a restriction in the upper rpm scale and robs us of some hp. If you run a larger carb, you gain the benifits up top, but the low end suffers. Now, there are alot of variables that are affected, but thats the basics. Yamaha used a smallish carb(35mm ID, kinda small for a 1200cc motor) to achieve good low end and then linked each port to another carb via a butterfly valve. Down low it stays shut and you have a torquey throttle response, but at 6000(ish) the valve opens and you gain the benifits of the xtra flow(like having a larger carb).
The problem for us that i see is that i have not run across ANY factory(IE:easy to come by and fairly cheap to purchase at wrecking yards/ebay) throttle bodies that are any smaller than 38mm ID. The 38mm ID should be a nice size for the V-max if NOT using the V-boost setup, since they are commonly on 600cc inline 4cyl sportbikes that typically make 110-120rwhp. Would they be a restriction on a 130rwhp V-max, i doubt it but its worth discussing. Will a 38mm ID TB be TOO much if used with the V-boost setup? Well, that i'm not sure. I see a possibility of a slight amount of low end response loss(before the V-boost opens up), but then again a properly tuned EFI system may more than make up for this.
Will it be too much once the v-boost opens up? I don't think so. Air takes the path of least resistance, so a larger bore will allow more air to pass straight and there would be less going through the V-boost valve(from the other TB). The motor is not gonna take in more than it can use(unless its FORCED in via Un-Natural Asperation!). That being said, i don't think that retaining the V-boost will be of much, if any benifit. You may also lose the V-boost "kick" at 6K(or thereabouts) since there would not be much of a change in airflow when the valve opens.
If we were to find some smaller TB's, it might be more of a consideration IMO, but given what i know we have available(cheap that is) i don't think its the way to go.
BTW, we do have options to go larger. Commonly available TB/injectors are in the range of 38mm, 40mm, 42mm, 44mm and 46mm.

So, what say you guys? Any thoughts? Concerns?
BTW, retaining the V-boost is a possibility when converting to EFI only. I'm not sure its even a possibility if adding programmable ignition control. You may be wondering why, but that is another discussion entirely(and one i don't care to visit right at the moment)

 

[Buster Hymen]

BTW, we do have options to go larger. Commonly available TB/injectors are in the range of 38mm, 40mm, 42mm, 44mm and 46mm.

So, what say you guys? Any thoughts? Concerns?
BTW, retaining the V-boost is a possibility when converting to EFI only. I'm not sure its even a possibility if adding programmable ignition control. You may be wondering why, but that is another discussion entirely(and one i don't care to visit right at the moment)

I have 45mm on a stock motor and they are too big. Tuning it has not been fun and you still end up with a stumble on acceleration. I think Bill from Wild Bros suggests 42mm for a stock motor but I'd like to see how one does with an even smaller set.

 

[Birdoprey]

I have 45mm on a stock motor and they are too big. Tuning it has not been fun and you still end up with a stumble on acceleration. I think Bill from Wild Bros suggests 42mm for a stock motor but I'd like to see how one does with an even smaller set.

Yeah, the tuning is hard with too large a TB(or carb for that matter). Really have to pay attention to the accel shot. Not sure how Wild Bros setup is adjustable, but many efi systems add fuel based on TPS rate, and this is where you have to play alot. Even tuning out the stumble, you will still have lackluster response and performance down low with too large of a TB.
On a side note, and one that i forgot to mention. The R6/R1 TB's have a vaccum operated slide like the CV carbs. This is one reason that Gary and I originally thought to try to use them, as they offer nice response/street manners due to "softening" the often over ambitious throttle inputs.If we must use new manifolds and ditch the V-boost setup, then the R6 TB's are VERY attractive to me. If they can be oriented like the stk carbs(i "believe" they can, but Gary will have the final word on that), then they will "look" close to stk. The tops are plastic and not interchangeable with the stk carb tops, but we can always have someone make up some alum replacements and then it would be hard to tell from the stk carb setup. Nice if you like the "sleeper" status. Nice too since it will more "fit" the looks of the V-max. Yamaha did a nice job on the "presence" of the V-max, which i'm a fan of.

 

[RagingMain]

Cant we taper bore the throttle bodies to keep the low end response and TQ yet improve breathing on the upper end for HP

 

[4gasem]

I have 45mm on a stock motor and they are too big. Tuning it has not been fun and you still end up with a stumble on acceleration. I think Bill from Wild Bros suggests 42mm for a stock motor but I'd like to see how one does with an even smaller set.

You know how you fix that right?

BIG BORE baby!:eusa_dance:

 

[TURBOVMAX]

I can get castings done locally for very minimal cost (about $25 per intake manifold) but that is a solid casting - meaning the inner hole won't be bored. It wouldn't be much more for the inner to be done but we have to buy the molds which run about $2000 per part we want to make (meaning $4000 for a pair - front and rear).

Sean Morley

Sean,

When we get to that point in the project we'll go out for quote. I deal regularly with quite a few casting houses as part of my daily job. I'm not sure what casting process would be right at this point. Sand castings are generally porous and lost wax are expensive...but require little machining. The 5 axis CNC Machines that are out there now a days are actually able to compete with castings on small parts. The end result with billet machined parts is night and day in comparison. Coatings (anodizing), polishing etc. lookie nicer on billet :biglaugh:. Lets get them things mocked up on the motor and we'll see.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

.

So, what say you guys? Any thoughts? I'm thinkin :ummm: I like what we call the KISS principal in the R&D business, it stands for... Keep It Simple Stupid. From a tuning stand point, I believe just getting the setup tuned without any extras would be wise. From there...when we have a real good understanding of the basic EFI setup. We could then revisit the Vboost and try to implement the added system. With that in mind we can try to make the manifolds retrofit-able to our initial setup. Which may require a smaller throttle body. Again it all comes down to being able to fit it all in. Concerns? The R1 bodies are already sized for the 1000 CC displacement and have been used with larger displacement motors (strokers, over-bores) successfully. Sooo using them or a similar sport bike (1000CC to 1200CC) throttle bodies, poses little risk in that department... again in terms of initial tuning
BTW, retaining the V-boost is a possibility when converting to EFI only. I'm not sure its even a possibility if adding programmable ignition control. You may be wondering why, but that is another discussion entirely(and one i don't care to visit right at the moment) Ditto... Lets define the goals first as in Stage 1, Stage 2 etc. a few polls and we'll be there. In the mean while...I'm drawing like a mad man QUOTE] :compute:

Mine in blue

 

[RagingMain]

I think this is all good. KISS. Just one twist on that though, can we oval port them to keep the low end torque and open up HP on the top end

 

[TURBOVMAX]

i think this is all good. Kiss. Just one twist on that though, can we oval port them to keep the low end torque and open up hp on the top end. The sky's the limit once we get it running...stay tuned!

Good thought!

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Just an update

We are gathering up throttle bodies. So far we have a set R1's CV Type, and a set of R6's. We're looking to buy a set GSXR 01-04 1000's and a set of 00-03 750's. The goal is to find a set that requires the least amount of mods and most important, give us the performance we require. At this point I believe we'll have to do a few different prototype manifold setups for testing.

Sean has donated a couple of head cores and miscellaneous parts to complete the jig for the throttle body manifold setup.

Thank You! Sean

 

[one2dmax]

No problem, I stepped out the front of the shop and snagged up a pair that got cooked in a fire. They probably could be cleaned up and used but I wasn't going to bother so should be perfect for this project.

I probably won't send the cam caps since i had tossed them loose in the pile when we took it apart too. If you need them I can dig them out.

Sean

 

[TURBOVMAX]

No problem, I stepped out the front of the shop and snagged up a pair that got cooked in a fire. They probably could be cleaned up and used but I wasn't going to bother so should be perfect for this project.

I probably won't send the cam caps since i had tossed them loose in the pile when we took it apart too. If you need them I can dig them out.

Sean

Sean,

Had an email on my machine from Mark (Birdoprey) last night. He's located a set of Gixxer 600's,750's and 1000's. I'll have them in hand this week. Will space them all off to the stock VMAX carb. spread dimensions hopefully. That should make trying different bodies easier. Located another set of heads and will make up a second jig motor. Don't need the cam caps.

Thank You! Mark and Sean

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Credit where credit is due!

It's important for me to have people recognized for their accomplishments. Too many times people take credit for something... someone else has done. The project we are working on has been done before! It's a one of...I believe. I've emailed Saarloos and asked him to join the Forum. His help would be invaluable when it comes to helping Mark with the control side of this project. I like what he's done mechanically but I would prefer to get those throttle bodies closer to the heads. Hope he takes me up on the offer.

He's using the Magic Gas :clapping: Another Mad Mod Monkey!

Here's a link his site: http://www.saarloos.net/content/blogcategory/14/28/

 

[TURBOVMAX]

I've emailed Rick Bachmann... The man who did the ram air setup and asked him to join the forum.

Here's a link to his site: http://www.ramair4vmax.com/default.htm